Calling All Noob Growers

Making it rain? , i know its just your opinion riddleme but i feel the urge to prove it as a growing FACT.

Right now i have 4 young blue cheese girlies growing in a light mix soil. they have just been moved into their big pots (they were started in small peat cups) i am about to finish babying them and start pushing them to be the best that they can be

I'm the kinda guy that has done his homework thoroughly but i'm always scanning RIU for the stuff i DONT yet know. Lo and Behold i stumble upon this enlightening thread (thanks Riddleme the info has been very valuable). And so 2 of my girls will be subjected to the "Making it Rain" technique (oh yes ive given it a name now ) and the other 2 will be watered and nuted on an alternating basis as i would have done with all 4 if i hadnt seen this thread.

As i often say the proof is in the pudding

To follow my progress have a look at : The Scroungers Guide to The Stealth Cabinet

Iv got to say riddleme ive seen alot of you around on this forum and i must say your input seems valuable to anybody who recieves it so please feel free to tell me what i'm doing wrong if anything as this is my first ever "serious" grow.

I just got the best laugh I have ever had here and wanted to share it with you,,,,here is what I said,


Originally Posted by riddleme
Ultimately MJ wants to be free the plants want space and do not want to touch each other (doing so causes minor stress) rule of thumb is 1 and 1/2 feet between plants and it is not lumens that matter (in fact lumens mean absolutely nothing to the plants) it is the sum of all parts that make a great grow with good yields, You will always get higher yields from a garden that is dialed in properly with ZERO stress to the plants

Here was the response,,,,,,,,

dude i appreciate the disagreement but before commenting you should really do your research.yes to get the best yeild you have to look at a lot of factors but to say something so ignorant as lumens mean nothing to plant im in stitches lol. lumens matter to plants a hell of a lot when it comes to flowering the more lumens the bigger the buds. OK if lumen's are not the main factor in yield do yourself a grow of more than 3 plants under a 125w cfl see how that goes for you.
you are so far off the mark its funny.the whole idea of using light is to simulate the lumen output of the sun as close as you can otherwise what the fck are we all spending money on lights for lol

Now I've already answered him but thought some of you might enjoy the laugh

Imagine that I should do some research ,,,,,Hilarious

"lumens matter to plants a hell of a lot when it comes to flowering the more lumens the bigger the buds."

They still don't get do they? lol

riddleme said:

I truely expected more,,,,that is just a forum post and I've read it

and touching plants does cause them minor stress mentioned in at least 3 of the books I have by actual botanist

glad you got a laugh but still does not prove me wrong

Click to expand...

Touching plants does NOT cause stress to plants.

Added by: Bongaloid Viewed: 197 times Rated by 62 users: 9.03/10A very general rule of thumb is that your garden needs 50 watts of HID lighting per square foot of illuminated area. This rule ignores the shape of your garden, so the following is really a better guide:

A 250 watt HID will illuminate a 2' x 2' garden.
A 400 watt HID will illuminate a 3' x 3' garden.
A 600 watt HID will illuminate a 3.5' x 3.5' garden.
A 1000 watt HID will illuminate a 4' x 4' garden.

From Jackerspackle,

here's a different take on watts-per-square-foot/meter (WPSF).

WPSF assumes that the bulb's intensity is equal over the entire grow area.. in other words each square foot/meter receives the same number of lumens. But in reality light diminishes rapidly the farther you go from the bulb (1/4 the intensity for each doubling of the distance). So each bulb has a limited range, beyond which you do not have good growth.

For example, a growspace that's 2 x 10 feet would require 1000 watts if you go by the 50 WPSF guideline that's commonly mentioned.. But a 1000 watt bulb only covers an area about 5 feet across - meaning the edges of your garden will be dark.. A better choice in this case would be three 400s or two 600s.

Another problem with WPSF is it assumes all bulbs have the same intensity. But 1000 watts of HPS is not the same as 1000 watts of fluorescents or (yuk) incandescents. Fluorescents have their lumens spread out over a long tube and are therefore dim.. incandescents have the wrong color spectrum and are also dim.

Nor is a 1000 HPS the same as four 250 HPSs.. 250s don't have anywhere near the intensity needed to penetrate thick canopy or tall, bushy plants. (Don't even think about growing meter-tall plants with a 250.)

I could go on, but here's a basic guideline for lighting a growspace for good growth using common HIDs:

WATTAGE -- COVERAGE
1000 watt - 4 to 5 feet across (1.3 to 1.5 meters)
600 watt - 3.5 feet (1 meter)
400 watt - 2.5 possibly 3 feet (.8 to .9 m)
250 watt - 2 feet (.6-.7 m)
175 watt - small, less than 2 feet

These numbers assume you have a good reflector around your bulb and also reflective wall coverings. You can increase the figures a bit if using multiple bulbs, due to their overlapping effect. You can also increase coverage using a light mover...

I know this won't put to rest the old WPSF idea, but i hope it shed some light on the subject. -~

LIGHT.



Indoors.

2000 lumens per sq. ft. is about as low as you want to go indoors. If you get under this mark, plant growth will certainly not go as fast as possible, and internode/stem length will increase. Also, light distance to plants will be much more critical. Daily adjustments to the lamps will be necessary, meaning you get no vacations.
2500 lumens psf should be a good target, and 3000 is optimal if your going to inject or enrich CO2 levels (more on that later).
High Intensity Discharge lamps are the best solution for most indoor growers. HID lamps come in 3 basic flavors: High Pressure Sodium (HPS), Metal Halide (MH) and Mercury Vapor. Metal Halide is an improved spectrum, higher intensity Mercury Vapor design. HPS is a yellowish sort of light, maybe a bit pink or orange. Same as some street lamps.
HPS lamps can be used to grow a crop from start to finish. Tests show that the HPS crop will mature 1 week later than a similar crop under MH, but it will be a bigger yield, so it�s better to wait the extra week.
The easiest HID to buy, and least expensive initially are the flourescent and mercury vapor lamps. MV will put out about 8000 lumens per 175 watts, and 150 watts of HPS puts out about 15k lumens, so HPS is almost twice as efficient. But the color spectrum from MV lamp output is not as good. HPS is high in reds, which works well for flowering, while the Metal Halide is rich in blues, needed for the best vegetative growth. Unfortunately, MV lamps provide the worst spectrum for plant growth, but are very inexpensive to purchase.They are not recommended, unless you find them free, and even then, the electricity/efficiency issues outweigh the initial costs saved.
400 watt HPS will output around 45k lumens. For every 500 watts of continuous use, you use about $20 a month in electricity, so it is evident that a lamp taking half the power to output the same lumens (or twice the lumens at the same power level) will pay for itself in a year or so, and from then on, continuous savings will be reaped. This is a simple initial cost vs. operating costs calculation, and does not take into account the faster growth and increased yield the HPS lamp will give you, due to more light being available. If this is factored into the calculation the HPS lamp will pay for itself with the first crop, when compared to MV or fluorescent lamps, since it is easily twice as efficient and grows flowers faster and bigger.
Lamp Type Watts Lumens per bulb Total efficiency

Fluorescent Bulb 40 3000 400 watts = 30k lumens

Mercury Vapor 175 8000 400 watts = 20k lumens
Metal Halide 400 36000 400 watts = 36k lumens

High P. Sodium 400 45000 400 watts = 45k lumens

Notice the Mercury Vapor lamps are less efficient than the fluorescent (FL), and can not be positioned as close to the plants, so the plants will not be able to use as much of the MV light. The light distribution is not as good either. MV lamps simply are not suitable for indoor gardening. Use flourecent, MH, or HPS lamps only. Halogen arc lamps generate too much heat and not very much light for the wattage they use, and are also not recommened, even though the light spectrum is suitable for decent growth.
There is a new type of HPS lamp called Son Agro, and it is available in a 250, 1000, and 400 watt range. The 400 is actually 430 watts; they have added 30 watts of blue to this bulb. It is a very bright lamp (53k lumens) and is made for greenhouse use. These bulbs can be purchased to replace normal HPS bulbs, so they are an option if you already own a HPS lamp. The beauty of this bulb is that you do not give up most of the advantages of MH lamps, such as minimal internode spacing and early maturation, like most HPS users do, and you have all advantages of a HPS lamp. One bulb does it all.
Internodal length of plants grown with the Son Agro are the shortest ever seen with any type of lamp. Plants grown under this lamp are incredibly bushy, compact and grow very fast. Son Agro bulbs however, do not last as long as normal HPS bulbs. There is something like a 25% difference in bulb life.
Metal Halide (MH) is another option, and is available in both a 36k and 40k lumen bulbs for the 400 watt size. The Super Bulb (40k) is about $10-15 more, and provides an extra 4000 lumens. I think the Super Bulb may last longer; if so, that makes it the way to go. Halide light is more blue and better than straight HPS for vegetative growth, but is much less efficient than HPS. It is possible to purchase conversion bulbs for a MH lamp that convert it to HPS, but the cost of the conversion bulb is more expensive than the color corrected Son Agro bulb, so I would recommend just buying the Son Agro HPS. Even though it costs more initially, you get more for your energy dollar later, and it�s much easier to hang than 10 fluorescent tubes.
If you have a MH 36k lumen lamp burning at 400 watts and a 53k lumen HPS burning at 430 watts, which is better efficiency wise? Which will provide a better yield? Obviously, the Son Agro HPS, but of course, the initial cost is higher. Actually, the ballast will add about 10% to these wattage numbers.
The Son Agro bulb will prove much better than the MH for any purpose. The MH bulb does not last as long, but is cheaper. Compare $36 for a 400 watt MH bulb vs. $40 for the HPS bulb. Add $15 for the Son Agro HPS. The HPS bulb life is twice as long. 10k hours vs. 21k hours. The Son Agro is 16k hours or so. Still, longer bulb life and more light add up to more for your energy dollar long term.
Horizontal mounting of any HID is a good idea, as this will boost by 30% the amount of light that actually reaches the plants. Most HID�s sold for indoor garden use these days are of this horizontal mounting arrangement.
HPS is much less expensive to operate than any other type of lamp, but comes in the 70 watt size at the home improvement stores. This size is not very efficient, but blows away FL in efficiency, so they might be an alternative to FL for very small operations, like 9 sq. feet or less. Over 9 sqr. feet, you need more light than one of these lamps can provide, but you could use two of them.
70 watt HPS lamps cost about $40 each, complete.
Two lamps would be 140 watts putting out about 12k lumens, so it�s better than FL, but a 150 watt HPS puts out about 18k lumens, the bulb life is longer, bulbs are cheaper and the lamp more efficient to operate. The biggest problem is that the mid size lamps like the 150 and 250 watt HPS are almost as expensive to buy as the larger 400�s. For this reason, if you have room for the larger lamp, buy the 400. If your going pro, a 1080 watt model is available too, but you might find there is better light distribution from two 400�s rather than one large lamp. Of course, the two smaller lamps are more expensive to purchase than one large lamp, so most people choose the larger lamp for bigger operations.
Heat buildup in the room is a factor with HID lamps, and just how much light the plants can use is determined by temperature, CO2 levels, nutrient availability, PH, and other factors. Too big of a lamp for a space will make constant venting necessary, and then there is no way to enrich CO2, since it�s getting blown out of the room right away.
Bulb Costs: the bulb cost on the 70 watt HPS is $24, the 150 is only $30, and the 400 is only $40. So you will spend more to replace two 70 watt bulbs than you will to replace one 400 watt HPS. (Go figure.) Add that up with the lower resale value on the 70�s (practically nothing) and the fact that they are being modified and are not suited to this application, and it becomes evident that $189 for a 250 HPS lamp, or $219 for a 400, might just be worth the price. Keep in mind that for $30 more, you can have the larger lamp (400watt) and it puts out 20k lumens more light than the smaller lamp. Not a bad deal!

thanx man , i in middle of my fiirst grow and wondering about everything in your post, which ive printed and will be implemented. my grow also 5-7 days to dry up... the slow way, but try the flush

riddleme said:

more forum post, come on when I get home from work and post my research none of it will be from a forum post all from teachers and phd's scientific research and answers, hell this post isn't even about lumens

I gave you a lot more credit than this

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You said lumens were not important and you will never prove me wrong about anything and the other users will see this so keep on going and trying to say i am wrong but i will prove you wrong when you are.
And what do you want a grow book that says your right.
You wont find one but i have mine stacked.

This is the scientific explanation of what a lumen is and how it is measured

A lumen is a unit of standard measurement used to describe how much light is contained in a certain area. The lumen is part of a group of standard measurements known as the photometry group, which measure different aspects of light. This group also includes such units as the candela, which measures luminance, and the lux, which measures illuminance.

Strictly speaking, a lumen is defined as one candela multiplied by one steradian, which can be expressed as: 1(lm) = 1(cd) x 1(sr). A related unit of measurement — although not part of the standard units — is the foot-candle, which is often used in photography and film. To really understand what a lumen is, it is important to understand these units: the candela, the foot-candle, the steradian, and the lux.

Although not entirely necessary to understand the lumen, there is an important distinction to be made between measures of radiance and measures of illuminance. When measuring radiance, you are basically looking at how much energy a light source is releasing directly. You’re not interested in what happens to that energy as it leaves the source, just in how much is at the source itself. When you’re measuring illuminance, by contrast, you are looking at how much of that energy makes it to a given object.

The foot-candle, also spelled footcandle, is the non-standard measure of illuminance, basically defined as how much light would strike the inner surface of a sphere one foot in radius if it were lit by a single candle in the center of that sphere. The lux is the standard measure of illuminance, and can be defined simply as how much light would strike a similar sphere of one meter in radius. The two can be converted simply, with 10.76 lux to one foot-candle.

Both the foot-candle and the lux make use of a measure of luminous intensity, called the candela. The candela was originally called the candlepower and simply referred to the amount of luminous energy emitted by a known type of candle. Later, when it was standardized, a definition was chosen that would approximate the older definition, so that existing equations could remain the same. The modern definition of the candela has to do with the radiation emitted by 1/60 of a single square centimeter of platinum when it is at its melting point.

A steradian is a standard unit of measurement used to define a solid angle. The technical definition of a steradian is the solid angle subtended at the center of a sphere of radius r by a portion of the surface of the sphere having an area of r2. In this definition, subtended has to do with the relationship between the length of the arc and the resulting angle. The steradian is unitless and is represented by the abbreviation sr. Mathematically, using the meter as a unit of measurement, we can then define a steradian as 1(sr) = m2 x m-1.


So, taking all of this together, we can now interpret our original definition of a lumen as 1(lm) = 1(cd) x 1(sr). One lumen in this case is a measure of the amount of luminous flux emitted into an area by 1/60 of a single square centimeter of platinum at its melting point into a certain angle. A lumen measurement is often used along with wattage to determine the luminous efficiency of a light-emitting body.
For example, a normal 100 watt light-bulb has a luminous efficiency of about 17.5, emitting 1750 lumens of light. A 13 watt fluorescent bulb, by contrast, has an efficiency of about 56, emitting around 730 lumens of light. The sun, in contrast, has an efficiency of around 93.

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riddleme said:

This is the scientific explanation of what a lumen is and how it is measured

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You can believe what you want but i have posted the FAQ and people will make their own minds up what right.

Young Buck you are wrong, and you wont be right until you post your own thread and ask us to refer to it. I'm a noob, im trying to learn from a guy whos gone to the effort of researching this all in detail. When you post your own thread with your own facts and your own research from years of learning and experimenting. Then you might be right. As far as im concerned you dont even know what a lumen is until its on your thread. stop threadjacking mate it makes u look foolish , maybe you cant see it. But we all can - If you value being right so much go be right on your own thread. this place is for noobs anyway, you're a professional grower remember ?

i like to believe scientific research other then forum chit chat =]
honestly buck, i dont see anything in the post that actualy say lumens are important?? just talk, about coverage,lamps,efficiency, etc..
tho it is all good info. just doesnt prove anything other then how many lumens each lamp has?

SensiStan said:

Young Buck you are wrong, and you wont be right until you post your own thread and ask us to refer to it. I'm a noob, im trying to learn from a guy whos gone to the effort of researching this all in detail. When you post your own thread with your own facts and your own research from years of learning and experimenting. Then you might be right. As far as im concerned you dont even know what a lumen is until its on your thread. stop threadjacking mate it makes u look foolish , maybe you cant see it. But we all can - If you value being right so much go be right on your own thread. this place is for noobs anyway, you're a professional grower remember ?

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Sorry that you are not understanding the basic FAQ regarding lighting and i dont ask questions and why would i want to start my own thread for and for what reason as i have no questions to ask. And you are the one jacking the thread as "riddleme" invited me in to this forum and its run by him NOT ME.

jumboSWISHER said:

i like to believe scientific research other then forum chit chat =]
honestly buck, i dont see anything in the post that actualy say lumens are important?? just talk, about coverage,lamps,efficiency, etc..
tho it is all good info. just doesnt prove anything other then how many lumens each lamp has?

Click to expand...

Everything is covered as the main question was "how many lumens do i need for growing".
You must have missed it.

And i wont be helping anyone on this thread unless they ask me personally because its not my thread and i dont have to prove anything to anyone as i have years of grows under my belt and thats why i DONT ask questions.

(good luck everyone).
(ask "riddleme")

YOUNG BUCK.

well asking you personaly, isnt lumens the measurment of light that is seeable by HUMAN EYES? isnt it the wavelengths, photons that are important?
and lumens are what we use to record those on a scale usable by humans or something?
seriously asking haha

heyy everyone,
just lookn for a 2nd opinion befor i go messn with my plants feeding schedule, looks like she has a calcium defficiency to me? and maybe N.
shes 5th week flowering, so yellowing shouldnt happen for another 2 weeks or so, and she started to purple a few days ago, tho i think thats genetics.
been feeding FFbig bloom, and FF grow big every couple feedings.
wut do yall think?
thanks

soil looks good and dry on top, no deposits so it should not be lockout. maybe cal, but remember cal and mag depend on each other, cant remember which is dependent on the other at this moment.

grow big is a veg fert with plenty of N, and combined with the big bloom sounds like it should have adequate, if not a little much IMT, of fert. do you have access to CAL-MAG Plus? I have heard it works wonders and quickly too. this far into bud dont know if you wont to foliear spray though. and lime prob wont react fast enough. i dont know what I would do. hope i helped you, cuz i am stumped???

no i dont have access to any CAL_MAG supliments, i use epsom salts and egg shells when i need to. but i dont think its a lockout. this strain ALWAYS needs alot of N during flowering, never fails 3-4 days into 12/12 they are yellowing up. so the grow big is a must ya kno. idk im pretty stumped too lol

oh, and this leaves drying out and curling just started this morning. i lowered the lights about 4 inches yesterday, and the yellowing turned into this. kinda why im thinking CAL

do your eggs and epsom salts bit. i read when you boil the eggs, you can take the run off and mix in with water and foliar feed to help with cal. it wasnt on an mj site, a legal growing site for like tomatoes and vegetables and shit, ya know!!

But to answer your question, calcium sources -

--Egg shells- best added when you place them underneath the plant at planting time; but you could add into the soil whenever to gradually bring up traces of calcium.
--Liming the soil with calcium carbonate [crushed limestone.] Best in the winter or off season, or before planting.
--There are commercial sprays available [calcium nitrate & calcium chloride] that you can spray on or around the plants themselves during the growing season.

Calcium may be present in abundance and still not taken up by the plant; uptake can be supressed by a number of causes [water deficiencies or irregularities; magnesium/nitrogen/potassium excess in soil; high humidity or excessive transpiration in the plant; high acidic soil, etcetera.]

alright bro, =]
riddle, do u agree its calcium? or could the yellowing, purpling b a sign that theres excess of something else causing this?