Can terpenes ''act'' as solvents??

KLITE

KLITE

Well-Known Member
So ive recently put some of the dankest buds ive ever come across through a mix of butane and propane and then poured the oil onto parchment and slowly raised temp to 28C, no agitation no flipping no touching. It was terpy as hell it just exuded this incredibly intense smell.
Why after 3 days into purging would the oil budder by itself! no temp raises nothing, relative humidty around 40% in that room, begin buddering? It makes me think perhaps terpenes might act as solvents?

Im realising now this might a really stupid question but, hey you know what they say...
 
Last edited:
BobCajun

BobCajun

Well-Known Member
Probably because the wax was still in it. And by wax I mean nonacosane. There's only less than 15% terps in BHO, so not much solvent power there. Unfortunately, it has a very high BP, about 400 C, so there's no way to purge it out. Only way to remove it is to dissolve the extract in another solvent which has lower wax dissolving power when cold, like acetone or ethanol. I'm sure you know about "winterizing".

The problem there is that you might as well have just done the extract with cold acetone to start with and thereby avoided dissolving the wax in the first place. Then you could use much less butane and dissolve the acetone extract in it, if you only want butane soluble stuff in your extract. Why use a crapload of butane in the first step? If you used acetone or alcohol in the same way as butane, pouring it down a column of weed, it would only dissolve the resin from the outer surfaces anyway. You wouldn't get green leaf oil unless you ground it up or soaked it for awhile. You just can't use acetone with plastic columns, like some do with butane, because it dissolves some plastics. Ethanol would be okay with plastic though.

There is another small problem though, even with the way I suggested. There would still be water solubles in the extract because you can't do a water wash of butane without it blowing up like a butane/water rocket. Which is why you don't even use butane in the first place, you use something that won't blow up when mixed with water, like ethyl acetate or hexane.

Actually, come to think of it, I have seen videos where butane was put on top of water and all it did was bubble. It's only if you mix it vigorously that it blows up. You could probably wash it with cold water by stirring very slowly. You would want something that would act as a separatory funnel for this operation, meaning a container with a spigot on the bottom so you can drain out the water and leave the upper layer of butane. You could rig one up fairly easily I would thing. Just obviously never have the container closed, because of the pressure from the butane.
 
Last edited:
Fadedawg

Fadedawg

Well-Known Member
BobCajun said:
Probably because the wax was still in it.

Not so. Add the first and second fractions from either SCFE CO2 fractionation, or short path. The first C-10 softens the second C-22, without the C-29/33 fractions present.

And by wax I mean nonacosane.

While the epicuticular and Intracuticular cannabis waxes contain nonacosane, it isn't the only wax or lipid present.

There's only less than 15% terps in BHO, so not much solvent power there.

The C-10 monoterpenes are all alcohols, ethers, aldehydes, ketones, carboxylic acids, and esters. It doesn't take much to soften a C-22 phenolic diterpenoid carboxylic acid.

Unfortunately, it has a very high BP, about 400 C, so there's no way to purge it out. Only way to remove it is to dissolve the extract in another solvent which has lower wax dissolving power when cold, like acetone or ethanol. I'm sure you know about "winterizing".

Yes I am familiar with winterizing. Here is an article that details how I do that process. https://skunkpharmresearch.com/getting-the-green-and-waxes-out-afterwards/

The problem there is that you might as well have just done the extract with cold acetone to start with and thereby avoided dissolving the wax in the first place. Then you could use much less butane and dissolve the acetone extract in it, if you only want butane soluble stuff in your extract. Why use a crapload of butane in the first step? If you used acetone or alcohol in the same way as butane, pouring it down a column of weed, it would only dissolve the resin from the outer surfaces anyway. You wouldn't get green leaf oil unless you ground it up or soaked it for awhile.

The fish trap exists only because of the fish, and the fish we covet in this case is aromatic, tasty, and effective concentrates, that aren't harsh to vaporize. The waxes aren't toxic, but reduce potency through dilution, and coat the lungs when vaporized. They also cloud visual clarity in a shatter.

Extracts using lower boiling point simple alkanes like propane and butane are easier to purge and hold on to the monoterpenes. If you recover the simple alkane alcohol Ethanol from an extraction, smell and taste of the recovered alcohol clearly demonstrates where most of the monoterpenes ended up.

You just can't use acetone with plastic columns, like some do with butane, because it dissolves some plastics. Ethanol would be okay with plastic though.

All plastics are not created equal. Here is a link to a chemical compatibility chart. http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance

There is another small problem though, even with the way I suggested. There would still be water solubles in the extract because you can't do a water wash of butane without it blowing up like a butane/water rocket. Which is why you don't even use butane in the first place, you use something that won't blow up when mixed with water, like ethyl acetate or hexane.

Please elaborate on the blowing up part?????????????????

Actually, come to think of it, I have seen videos where butane was put on top of water and all it did was bubble. It's only if you mix it vigorously that it blows up. You could probably wash it with cold water by stirring very slowly. You would want something that would act as a separatory funnel for this operation, meaning a container with a spigot on the bottom so you can drain out the water and leave the upper layer of butane. You could rig one up fairly easily I would thing. Just obviously never have the container closed, because of the pressure from the butane.
Click to expand...
 
BobCajun

BobCajun

Well-Known Member
The blowing up part meant rapid expansion of butane gas.


But I did think of a good use for terpene as a solvent. There's a patent, US 2012/0046352 A1, that says B6 or limonene can be used to decarb THCA quickly and at room temp. Whether it's true I don't know yet, but limonene is also a natural Cannabis terp and since the terps appear to be 2/3rds lost from the heat of pressing (compared to BHO), why not add about 10% of the weight of bud you want to press in limonene? Meaning just drop some on there and let it soak in. Then the limonene might act as a solvent to help squeeze the resin out easier, being "thinned", and it might decarb it at the same time and also make up for the terps that will be lost due to the heat. If it's decarbed it might deliver more THC than smoking it in the normal undecarbed form. At the very least it would help the squeezing.

Of course what makes the limonene decarbing claim doubtful is that it's already in many strains and yet there's no decarbing. It's probably BS, but still it would help as a solvent and probably improve aroma. Could also use turpentine, the kind from natural gum resin, but it's not as good smelling as limonene. Might come out smelling like oil paint.

Reading the patent again I can see that it's not at room temp. It's heated. Just the way the patent is worded in other parts sometimes makes it look like it decarbed before the heating. Apparently the cofactor allows the decarbing to take place faster and at lower temp, like the BP of water, or the heat of a low temp rosin press.

"The mild polar solvent, preferably ethyl alcohol and
water are then evaporated out of the mixture. At sea level
alcohol evaporates at a temperature of 173° F. (78.33° C.), and
water evaporates at a temperature of 212° F. (100° C.). As
heated the mixture will first reach a temperature near 173° F.
(78.33° C.) and dwell there until the alcohol is evaporated, the
temperature of the mixture will then increase to near 212° F.
(100° C.) and dwell there as the water is evaporated out
of the mixture. During this part of the process a specifc
amount of cofactor (Vitamin B6, Limonene, or other appro
priate cofactor) causes the various acidic substances contained
within raw cannabis plant material to be converted to
medicinal cannabis."

Come to think of it, maybe the natural limonene in Cannabis does help decarbing when you smoke it. Maybe that's why terps seem to make you higher, at least reportedly. However, it only decarbs an equal molar amount of THCA. So adding more might make it even better. From the molar weights I'd say you'd need about 1/3rd the amount of the THCA content. So if a strain is 20% THCA you'd need about 7 g of limonene per 100 g of weed, or 7%. So if you want to squish 1 g of bud you'd add 70 mg limonene.
 
Last edited:
M

MiG pilot

Well-Known Member
BobCajun said:
There's only less than 15% terps in BHO, so not much solvent power there.
Click to expand...
"Resins are readily soluble in essential oils, and these solutions are called balsams.
In such form, the resin contained in the plants.
Over time, the essential oil evaporates and oleoresins becomes less adhesive hardens and becomes a resin,
although a small amount of essential oil it still remains."
 
BobCajun

BobCajun

Well-Known Member
MiG pilot said:
"Resins are readily soluble in essential oils, and these solutions are called balsams.
In such form, the resin contained in the plants.
Over time, the essential oil evaporates and oleoresins becomes less adhesive hardens and becomes a resin,
although a small amount of essential oil it still remains."
Click to expand...
Okay maybe it does help dissolve it. Add some more then and it will be even better, like turpentine or limonene. Then just let it evaporate over a few days. That's the good thing about terps, when there's too much you can just let it evaporate because it's volatile, like letting oil paint dry. All you'd have to do is leave it folded in the parchment and sitting out. It would evaporate through the paper. Not silicone paper but regular 100% paper parchment. It's made by treating the paper with sulfuric acid. Vapors can pass right through it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top