CannaWizard's (AMC) Lounge
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cannawizard
Well-Known Member
*[video=youtube;O9REMmhvjQw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9REMmhvjQw&feature=related[/video]
cannawizard
Well-Known Member
**i see it as.., its better to have done something, ..than to have said something
..lolzhey what do you guys know about phytochrome manipulation. this is a new concept to me and is very biology heavy. as far as i understand it, it is a way to induce flowering on a photo-period plant with less than 12 hrs of dark. i have also heard that you could use this process to shorten flowering times. does anyone know anything about this stuff?
cannawizard
Well-Known Member
**was actually looking into it, post what you find and ill do the same, just a bunch of scifi data notes that isnt really user friendly
this is the best stuff i have read thus far. foudn it on another site (whose name need not be mentioned)**was actually looking into it, post what you find and ill do the same, just a bunch of scifi data notes that isnt really user friendly
Joedank
Well-Known Member
riu has a good thread about it already https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/174970-circadian-cycle-phytochromes-florigen-manipulation.html
never mind dead thread here is the meat by lampshade circa 08
Florigen isnt well understood. But we do know it is effected by the type of phytochrome. Phytochrome is a pigment/flourophore that changes its type depending on whether it recieves red or infrared light. Red light converts phytochrome to the version that stops flowering. IR makes phytochrome the flowering type. Also naturally phtochrome will convert from the nonflowering to flowering type on its own. Exposed to any kind of light or not. This is why long dark periods promote flowering. All sativa and indica strains have this phytochrome complex. But diff strains need less darkness to flower so if you bred the right strains you could get a strain that would flower OPTIMALLY at 14 hrs. You can get most plants to flower at 14 hours light but not optimally, they take much longer.
You could also get a IR light/emitter. Then right when your lights turn off you could turn on the IR. This would speed the conversion of phtochrome from Nonflowering type to flowering type. You would only need to expose them to IR for 2 hours +/- (you need to experiment). Doing this I imagine you could run close to 20 hrs light.
Finally you could just breed in ruderalis strains. They dont depend on phytochromes to flower, they use another mechanism that works off of age. This is what makes the lowryders autoflower under 24hr light. The disadvantage is that ruderalis is very low yielding and the trait is passed on to lowryder relatives.
Hope all that typing helps, Lamp
never mind dead thread here is the meat by lampshade circa 08
Florigen isnt well understood. But we do know it is effected by the type of phytochrome. Phytochrome is a pigment/flourophore that changes its type depending on whether it recieves red or infrared light. Red light converts phytochrome to the version that stops flowering. IR makes phytochrome the flowering type. Also naturally phtochrome will convert from the nonflowering to flowering type on its own. Exposed to any kind of light or not. This is why long dark periods promote flowering. All sativa and indica strains have this phytochrome complex. But diff strains need less darkness to flower so if you bred the right strains you could get a strain that would flower OPTIMALLY at 14 hrs. You can get most plants to flower at 14 hours light but not optimally, they take much longer.
You could also get a IR light/emitter. Then right when your lights turn off you could turn on the IR. This would speed the conversion of phtochrome from Nonflowering type to flowering type. You would only need to expose them to IR for 2 hours +/- (you need to experiment). Doing this I imagine you could run close to 20 hrs light.
Finally you could just breed in ruderalis strains. They dont depend on phytochromes to flower, they use another mechanism that works off of age. This is what makes the lowryders autoflower under 24hr light. The disadvantage is that ruderalis is very low yielding and the trait is passed on to lowryder relatives.
Hope all that typing helps, Lamp
cannawizard
Well-Known Member
**i miss the days of just plant it, water it, lil TLC. and its all good... now... look at this stuff... lmfao
yeah i checked out that thread. actually the second quote is taken from it. good info, but the thread is a little short and two years old. i was just wondering if there have been any advances in this research and perhaps and applications of this process to the flowering process of MJ.
Joedank
Well-Known Member
my biodynamic greenhouse is just sun water and the data on that calender i posted... good smoke too just ammended compost and bd thunder (witch is changing its name btw)
Joedank
Well-Known Member
from detox at the farm:What I posted yesterday was the wrong nm, so I deleted it. It says far red but when I looked it had 660 nm. We want 720nm.
I did do a little footwork, but the finds are slim. The only two ways I c of getting what u want is DIY LEDS (which actually looks simple, to me anyway), or the ECC-FR™ (Far Red) LED Grow Bulb for $165 here in US (plus tax, if u find one not charging shipping let us know).
How to build your DIY LED array
http://www.gardenscure.com/420/light...d-array-8.html << How to build it.
DIY LED Emitter Selection
http://www.gardenscure.com/420/light...selection.html << Bulb sources
__________________
wiz you will like this link i am gonna order these for the big grennhouses: http://www.lighting.philips.co.uk/pwc_li/main/shared/assets/downloads/pdf/horticulture/cl-G-Flowering Lamp-0510-lr-uk_pr04.pdfhttp://www.lighting.philips.co.uk/pwc_li/main/shared/assets/downloads/pdf/horticulture/cl-G-Flowering%20Lamp-0510-lr-uk_pr04.pdf
Was reading Ed Rosenthal's Marijuana Grower's Handbook today and ran into this:
pg 380.
Jump Starting Flowering
Long periods of uninterrupted darkness are nature's trigger to marijuana to begin flowering. This is measured chemically by phytochrome, which is deactivated by red light. The inactive form is refered to as Pr. In the absence of red light, with a peak at 666 nm (coincidence? I think not*) and effects from about 500-700 nm, Pr drifts into its active form Pfr, over a period of about two hours. This begins at dusk or when the lights are turned off. This transition period, during which Pfr has limited effectiveness, can be dramatically shortened.
Pr is sensitive to far-red light with a peak at 730 nm and is affected in a range of about 700-715 nm. In its presence it changes almost immediately to active form, Pfr. This effect is useful for shortening the two-hour time it takes plants to switch from inactive to active form.
Indoors after the grow lamps are turned off, expose the plants to far-red (730 nm light) which turns the Pr to Pfr much faster and induces flowering within a shorter dark period. You can provide far-red lighting using LEDs or some fluorescents. Far-red light can also be used to restore the active form of the hormone if the dark is interrupted by light. This may ameliorate the consequences of darkness interruption.
Outdoors, you have no control over dawn and dusk, but you can force flower out of season by using far-red lighting to increase the time the plants are under Pfr's flower-inducing influence by two hours. Plants receiving 15 hours of light and 9 hours of darkness react as if they were under a lighting regime of 11 hours of darkness because of the additional two hours of active hormone. Most plants initiate flowering under 11 hours of darkness, which is shortened to 9 after exposure to 730 nm far-red light
a little more
as my iso distiller does its work
I did do a little footwork, but the finds are slim. The only two ways I c of getting what u want is DIY LEDS (which actually looks simple, to me anyway), or the ECC-FR™ (Far Red) LED Grow Bulb for $165 here in US (plus tax, if u find one not charging shipping let us know).
How to build your DIY LED array
http://www.gardenscure.com/420/light...d-array-8.html << How to build it.
DIY LED Emitter Selection
http://www.gardenscure.com/420/light...selection.html << Bulb sources
__________________
wiz you will like this link i am gonna order these for the big grennhouses: http://www.lighting.philips.co.uk/pwc_li/main/shared/assets/downloads/pdf/horticulture/cl-G-Flowering Lamp-0510-lr-uk_pr04.pdfhttp://www.lighting.philips.co.uk/pwc_li/main/shared/assets/downloads/pdf/horticulture/cl-G-Flowering%20Lamp-0510-lr-uk_pr04.pdf
Was reading Ed Rosenthal's Marijuana Grower's Handbook today and ran into this:
pg 380.
Jump Starting Flowering
Long periods of uninterrupted darkness are nature's trigger to marijuana to begin flowering. This is measured chemically by phytochrome, which is deactivated by red light. The inactive form is refered to as Pr. In the absence of red light, with a peak at 666 nm (coincidence? I think not*) and effects from about 500-700 nm, Pr drifts into its active form Pfr, over a period of about two hours. This begins at dusk or when the lights are turned off. This transition period, during which Pfr has limited effectiveness, can be dramatically shortened.
Pr is sensitive to far-red light with a peak at 730 nm and is affected in a range of about 700-715 nm. In its presence it changes almost immediately to active form, Pfr. This effect is useful for shortening the two-hour time it takes plants to switch from inactive to active form.
Indoors after the grow lamps are turned off, expose the plants to far-red (730 nm light) which turns the Pr to Pfr much faster and induces flowering within a shorter dark period. You can provide far-red lighting using LEDs or some fluorescents. Far-red light can also be used to restore the active form of the hormone if the dark is interrupted by light. This may ameliorate the consequences of darkness interruption.
Outdoors, you have no control over dawn and dusk, but you can force flower out of season by using far-red lighting to increase the time the plants are under Pfr's flower-inducing influence by two hours. Plants receiving 15 hours of light and 9 hours of darkness react as if they were under a lighting regime of 11 hours of darkness because of the additional two hours of active hormone. Most plants initiate flowering under 11 hours of darkness, which is shortened to 9 after exposure to 730 nm far-red light
a little more
as my iso distiller does its work
pr0fesseur
Well-Known Member
Indeed! i have been using far red bulbs in my setup for some time, however the company has since discontinued them 
i have found great replacements.
Flowering under far red us much faster than my old 400W HID.
i have found great replacements.Flowering under far red us much faster than my old 400W HID.
cannawizard
Well-Known Member
--so some Seti 666nms diodes on the wish-list..
now my question is can this translate to a faster finish. especially for somestrains which stretch for like three week and dont start popping pistils til week 4 (heavy sativa dom). if you could speed up the transition from veg to flower you might be able to limit the stretch and start producing actual flowers faster.
cannawizard
Well-Known Member
**someone just needs to grab some sats dom strains, a tent, and start testing w/ deepreds
--on a funny note, just got 2 technik mk3s.. gonna start spinning tunes in the lab.. plant TLC
cannawizard
Well-Known Member
**was pretty on it in highschool, then had to give up the djdream b/c of 'reality' reasons.., well.. its never too late
cannawizard
Well-Known Member
**cool tid-bit..
View attachment 1844728
>From _Licit & Illicit Drugs_, by Consumer Reports, p. 403:
...In 1762, "Virginia awarded bounties for hempculture and
manufacture, and imposed penalties upon those who did not
produse it."
George Washington was growing hemp at Mount Vernon three years
later--presumably for its fiber, though it has been argued that
Washington was also concerned to increase the medicinal or
intoxicating potency of his marijuana plants.*
The asterisk footnote:
* The argument depends on a curious tradition, which may
or may not be sound, that the quality or quantity of marijuana
resin (hashish) is enhanced if the male and female plants are
separated *before* the females are pollinated. There can be no
doubt that Washington separated the males and the females. Two
entries in his diary supply the evidence:
May 12-13 1765: "Sowed Hemp at Muddy hole by Swamp."
August 7, 1765: "--began to seperate (sic) the Male from
the Female Hemp at Do--rather too late."
George Andrews has argued, in _The Book of Grass: An Anthology of
Indian Hemp_ (1967), that Washington's August 7 diary entry
"clearly indiactes that he was cultivating the plant for medicinal
purposes as well for its fiber." [7] He might have
separated the males from the females to get better fiber, Andrew
concedes--but his phrase "rather too late" suggests that he
wanted to complete the separation *before the female plants were
fertilized*--and this was a practice related to drug potency
rather that to fiber culture.
View attachment 1844728
>From _Licit & Illicit Drugs_, by Consumer Reports, p. 403:
...In 1762, "Virginia awarded bounties for hempculture and
manufacture, and imposed penalties upon those who did not
produse it."
George Washington was growing hemp at Mount Vernon three years
later--presumably for its fiber, though it has been argued that
Washington was also concerned to increase the medicinal or
intoxicating potency of his marijuana plants.*
The asterisk footnote:
* The argument depends on a curious tradition, which may
or may not be sound, that the quality or quantity of marijuana
resin (hashish) is enhanced if the male and female plants are
separated *before* the females are pollinated. There can be no
doubt that Washington separated the males and the females. Two
entries in his diary supply the evidence:
May 12-13 1765: "Sowed Hemp at Muddy hole by Swamp."
August 7, 1765: "--began to seperate (sic) the Male from
the Female Hemp at Do--rather too late."
George Andrews has argued, in _The Book of Grass: An Anthology of
Indian Hemp_ (1967), that Washington's August 7 diary entry
"clearly indiactes that he was cultivating the plant for medicinal
purposes as well for its fiber." [7] He might have
separated the males from the females to get better fiber, Andrew
concedes--but his phrase "rather too late" suggests that he
wanted to complete the separation *before the female plants were
fertilized*--and this was a practice related to drug potency
rather that to fiber culture.
cannawizard
Well-Known Member
**thnx hoe
....now to my tid bit...
TOPIC - UV
DATE - 09:21:14 9/11/99
FROM - Vic High
Soul, please email me sometime, I lost your email addy.
Thanks for the challange, it gives me reason to take the time to explain further
Basically, under non selective pressures I agree with your point 100%. However, artificial selective pressures are at play here. Also, I agree, simply
creating your seeds under high UV conditions will have little effect on future generations, you will just get more potent
seedy buds. You need to use the UV in your selection process, this is where change can occur. My argument will
make a few assumptions that are open for challange though, hehe.
First, lets consider THC's role and effects on a plant's overall health. It can be good or bad for a plant depending on it's
location, for example, a low THC plant growing in a high THC environment is going to spend alot of energy repairing
tissues damaged by UV. Therefore, it won't be able to be as vigorous as other plants with high THC. However, a high
THC plant growing in a low UV environment will waste alot of energy producing THC, energy that could have gone to
faster growth. Therefore, vigour could represent opposite traits depending on the environment.
And the most vigourous tend to be what we and nature selects for. In our case, our selection pressure are much more
extreme because we work with much smaller population sizes. What would take nature hundreds of generations, we
could do in half a dozen or less. Cannabis has enough genetic variation to allow this. Take haze for instance, how
many are the bomb, and how many are dogs? By purely selecting the bombs each round (males included), it shouldn't
take long to clean up the line and make it predominately bombs, less than six generations is my guess. However, we
like to select for more than potency, hence complicating the issue, hehe. But how do we select the male's that are the
most potent? Especially with our small population sizes?
Well first lets talk about the effects of population size and selective pressures and how they work together. It's common
thinking that to improve a seedline from generation to generation, you need to reserve only the top 10% of the
population for breeding. For faster results, make that the top 1%, the smaller the number, the faster the results.
However, the size of your breeding population is also important to maintain vigour. The smaller the breeding population,
the more likely you may end up pairing up lethal recessive alleles. So you end up trying to strike a balance between
keeping your breeding population a decent and healthy size and placing as much selective pressure on selecting your
breeding population. A larger population size would have solved DJ Short's blueberry problems, it's lack of vigour and
deformed growth. IMO, of course, hehe, only DJ knows the truth, hehe.
Space is usually our limiting factor, you can only select from so many. This is where my UV ideas come into play, to
allow me to select from a larger population. Two flats of seedlings can take up as much space as one or two adult
plants. My flats hold between 48 and 72 seedlings, depending on cube size. My assumption is that if I can grow the
seedlings under high UV, those seedlings with the most THC should be the most vigorous. And to top it off, the biggest
plants put themselves at a bigger risk by growing closer to the UV source! So now, when you move from the seedling
flats to the 5" pots, you save only the best "looking" 10%, hard to select based on anything else at this point. You
should be able to further your selection in the 5" to 6" pots based on other selection criteria such as powdery mildew
resistance, for example and reduce your population by another 50% before moving to the final growing medium. Take
back up clones of each and then flower them out, steadily removing any undesireables and doing taste tests, hehe. By
about halfway through flowering you should be down to your top 1% of the population. All the while, exposing the plants
to high UV, giving those with the most THC a selective advantage.
It would be fun to back up these ideas with GLC data, but my connections are not that great, and I haven't found the
equipement that I could buy for my persoanl Lab, haha. Anyway, I left lots of holes in my idea for further discussion or
challanges if anyone wishes
TOPIC -
DATE - 13:40:47 9/11/99
FROM - oldtimer1
Hi Soul a lot of what you say I agree with but as our government learned in the past cannabis adapts to its environment
very quickly indeed and it cost them a lot of money. When we were a sailing nation hemp had been grown on a large
field scale in Norfolk for the admiralty for several hundred years. In their wisdom they decided labour being 1/100 in the
middle east they moved production to one of our protectorates. There was no other cannabis cultivated within the area
and the first year crops were the normal single whip 12 to 15 ft long bast fibre plants of home within 4 years the plants
had adapted to a short branched 5 to 6 ft plants were already producing quite a lot of resin which clogged the
machinery and the fibre quality was inferior for making sail cloth or rope also the fibre yield dropped considerably. They
had to produce seed here and send it out and that worked out satisfactory but costly and eventually abandoned hemp
production round the med. As I have mentioned before JW Fairburn did light/potency research in the UK in the 60/70ís
and to go with your theory found that Thai grown from seed taken from samples of impounded weed produced little thc
under glass. But when given supplementary uv produced about 3.6% against .02% without. Now while this is quite
reasonable considering they were leaf samples as Thai would never flower properly here. That goes along with your
supposition that if it is in the genetic make up uv will help the plant produce more complex forms of thc. I had not
meant to go into detail as we have been through a lot of this on this page before. But the experiment have been done
many times before both here and even more so in the states! We should learn from what has gone from before not keep
trying to reinvent the wheel. Your own government did loads of research via university grants in the past and the change
period from a high thc low cbd to low thc, high cbd is about 4 to 5 years taking a southern variety and growing it in the
northern areas! We are not talking about any selection here just grown field scale. Interestingly when taken back to the
original environment they revert to the high thc low cbd form over a similar period. Where as a type 3 fibre plant as i
stated above while adapting in form rapidly and while producing a lot of resin only adapts its thc production upwards
very slowly indeed. Most of the varieties grown by us now are a mix of type 1 and type 2 plants mostly looking like type
2 [high resin hash production]. They were originally made in the states! It gave plants that would finish early enough in
the southern states. As people in the northern states found they could grow them just as well under HIDís newer more
compact varieties were developed and I believe they were very potent from the samples i tried at the time, things like
northern lights, bigbud and skunk#1. They were drawn from genetics grown in the south where there is real sun! Now
this is a supposition, but all these earlier breeders used big metal halides and they do give off useful amounts of uv! I
suspect these early varieties had a good proportion of thc in relation to cbd. In Holland at this time they had been using
supplementary lighting under glass to grow tomatoes and flowers for a while using the lately developed son t plus type
of sodium lamps! All the wonderful varieties were taken from the states and the seed industry started to develop in
Holland and of course they took on board the local growing methods lots of small highbay sodium lamps but in rooms
instead of under glass. In my opinion the quality has been going down ever since! I have tried nearly every thing grown
in Holland, I have grown some of both yours and Vicks varieties and believe me they stand above any thing you can
buy in the dam! I suspect this is because both of you use a mix of halide and sodium which doesn't happen in Holland.
By the way this doesn't mean they cant be improved hehe.
I donít know what Vic is doing but If I was him I would be subjecting my seedlings and breeding stock to uv the
survivors having the most adapted genes, a fast track back to the high thc combinations. It is unlikely that there will be
any type 3 genes in the mix and given a few generations hopefully he may have some killer combinations, but only time
will answer this I look forward to seeing the results! Soul Iím no scientist nor geneticist, a gardener yes! I just like this
plant a lot, Iíve grown it for over 30 years, Iím appalled at what has been happening in Holland breeding wise. To me it is
down to you boutique growers to take it to another level! DP say in their catalogue that blueberry has been tested at
19.5% thc, well that is all bullshit to me, do you know that the strongest Colombian ever seized by your government
tested 9.7% thc. Iíve smoked both and to me the bb wouldn't be in the running! All the best Ot1.