Cant take the conflicting reviews-please help

frozenphoenix said:

First thanks anyone whos responded so far. I understand your point about personal preferences, however i also know that certain strains are more or less universally loved. Also there are certain things that absolutely no one would preffer such as, beans that dont pop, a pack of "fems" that turn out all herms , or a company that just doesnt send you anything or spending $200 on a single bean thats supposed to be the real deal and then it comes out "not really like the original" So like canna 420 said i am asking which companies and breeders to trust, but more so (having a hard time w this i guess) Im asking if the representations made in the mags and breeders sites regarding all the factors that matter ( Looks,yeild, potentcy, aroma, taste, vigor, stability) are acurate and if so are they actually sending those beans, or is it all just pretty pictures and marketing. My point is i read alot of negative reviews.

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Allow me to offer some observations.
I don't think there really are "universally-loved" strains. It depends on your needs and wants in re Sativa v. Indica. I personally favor Sativa-dominant strains, but many many here dote on a hard Indica.
The other thing is that breeders' lines are not consistent. I've read many negative reviews of e.g. GreenHouse products, and yet raves for their Super Lemon Haze strain.

So to get a more focused response, tell us what you like or need to have from a smoke. cn

racerboy71 said:

i think that pretty much any big name breeder can get his hands on any strain they want at pretty much any time and release seeds of it after a bit of work, so thankfully a lot of these clone only strains are soon to be a thing of the past imo..

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I disagree with the second part of this (see below).

of course people will argue that say swerves of the cali connection, version of tahoe og isn't the same thing as say the clone only strain, or that any seed form of a clone only isn't going to be as good as the clone version..

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With some caveats, I'm one of these people.

The main problem here is that a lot of the "clone only" strains (in fact, probably most of them) aren't inbred lines, they're unique hybrids.

That means that in most cases it isn't possible to exactly replicate them by "selfing" the clone only line. Its not a question of doing the work, its just a question of random assortment and selection. Every time you cross hybrids (even self crossing them) you're rolling the dice, so to speak, and if you're rolling ten dice at once, you're only going to come up 10x "snake eyes" one in a million times.

Now, with enough backcrossing and selection, you might create an unstable line where some of the phenos are close to the original, but that's not exactly the same thing. I think in practice, many of the seed versions of the "clone only" lines fall into this category.

The point is, if it were possible to easily replicate "clone only" lines in seed form, there would be no such thing as "clone only" lines to begin with.

Now, all that said, I don't think any of the "clone" only lines are truly unique in the sense that they offer some trait or combination of traits entirely absent from every other line. In many cases, the "clone only" lines are just rare selected phenos of commercially available (or formerly available) ones. So even if you can't get *exactly* the same thing, you can often get close or get something somewhat different, that is arguably just as good.

Part of the reason there are "clone only" lines isn't necessarily because they are so much (or even any) better than stuff that's commercially available, its because of the mystique associated with the "underground" nature of trading and growing these lines. If you're growing "clone only" stuff, you're part of a "secret club" of sorts, and that appeals to people. So even if the "clone only" strains really aren't much or any better than ones that are commercially available, I don't think they're going to go away, simply because to many growers there is a lot of appeal to growing something that seems to be rare or exclusive (even if it isn't entirely so).

i don't always think that paying top dollar for seeds will equal getting the best plants for the money as many breeders out today are charging little for top end genetics...

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I definitely agree with that.

In general, there is *some* correlation between price and quality, but its certainly not absolute.

Some of the more expensive lines aren't necessarily better than stuff at a fraction of the cost, and there are absolutely top notch genetics available for relatively low prices in some cases.

frozenphoenix said:

In short where can the best genetics be found( or can they even, that is, are they really available to all of us?), and why in your opinion will someone, somewhere viciously disagree with you no matter what you say?

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Now that's a sharp question.

On the second thing, message boards are full of a-holes and posers, and its good to grow a thick skin and learn to ignore some.

On the first thing, what constitutes the "best" genetics is highly debatable. The "best" for you may not be the "best" for me. I'd argue that there is no such thing as the "best", in that with any given set of needs, there are probably several strains out there that could do an excellent job, assuming the grower does his/her part well.

And really, does it matter if the "best" plant can theoretically yield 2 ounces of 22% THC bud, but the strain you find can "only" yield 1.75 ounces of 20% THC bud? I'd argue that in practice, it does not.

What you want isn't the "best" strain (which may be impossible to define, let alone identify. . .every strain presents its own set of compromises), but one that is really well-suited to YOUR needs, including potency, cannabinoid profile, ease of growth, yield, and adaptability to your own unique grow circumstances.

Again, nobody is 100% in the sense that every single seed in every single pack will be viable, never hermie, and always turn out perfect plants, but there are at least several highly reputable breeders out there with product lines mostly comprised of excellent genetics, where its really hard to pick a pack of seeds from them that isn't going to be at least very good, if not absolutely outstanding.

Edit: Are the "best" genetics available to the general public? Again, with the caveat that its impossible to define what the "best" are, I'd say yes, they are. World class genetics ARE available commercially, and more important, if you can't find a strain well suited to your individual needs from the literally hundreds that are currently commercially available, I'd suggest to you, that there is no secret "clone only" strain that's going to do it for you either.

racerboy71 said:

hazey, fem's are no more likely to hermie then regular plants.. the only reason fem's produce male stamen is that the female, no hermie plant, gets sprayed with a chemical like collidial silver, which forces an otherwise non hermie plant to grow male stamens.. if the plant was never sprayed with a chem, it would never grow male stamens, there fore there is no hermie genetics present in that plant to pass on to the offspring so long as you don't go spraying them with cs as well..

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Soma does it diffirent he lets a good female go about 2 weeks longer in flower till the female produces male flowers he collects it and uses a paint brush and brushes the pollen on just the lower buds and he keeps the colas for himself. thats what he says in his book anyways. one thing that kinda fucks me up he said in his book is that he had his big skunk korean in a grow room in the US and the light cycle got fucked up made them hermie and he had all female seeds then he moved to amsterdam and was gifted a good male from shantibaba a afghan x hawian crossed it to his big skunk korean and did a whole lot of backcrossing and shit. he even did the same with nyc diesel he was givin sour diesel seeds they where all fems and he used the male from shanti and backcrossed. so hes actually done breeding with fem/hermie seeds which so many people say is not good but yet I don't here too many problems with his strains.

Is the op's question awensered?

VTMi'kmaq said:

Is the op's question awensered?

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probally not. lol

bluntmassa1 said:

Soma does it diffirent he lets a good female go about 2 weeks longer in flower till the female produces male flowers he collects it and uses a paint brush and brushes the pollen on just the lower buds and he keeps the colas for himself. thats what he says in his book anyways. one thing that kinda fucks me up he said in his book is that he had his big skunk korean in a grow room in the US and the light cycle got fucked up made them hermie and he had all female seeds then he moved to amsterdam and was gifted a good male from shantibaba a afghan x hawian crossed it to his big skunk korean and did a whole lot of backcrossing and shit. he even did the same with nyc diesel he was givin sour diesel seeds they where all fems and he used the male from shanti and backcrossed. so hes actually done breeding with fem/hermie seeds which so many people say is not good but yet I don't here too many problems with his strains.

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rodelization...I do not do soma because of that exact reason....by that method you can't help but to encourage the hermie trait...that is why most breeders use sts...easier and more dependable that colloidal silver and does not unintentionally cause a preference for the hermie trait as with rodelization

truth be told, not all clone only's are that good..some are some aren't..

also, look at seedbay under server fund or private breeders..you'll find better plants from the people on the boards than you will with commercial breeders..

many of the private breeders and donated seedlots to the server fund contain many clone only's in them..

why is that you ask, well, bcuz many of the people there have already found killer phenos and use them to hit the elite's or bx them..

trust me when i tell you, for your money and i mean very little money around $25-50 a pack you will find many many gems over there @ the bay..

yes, i am fan but i also contribute to the server fund..

So I'll add my $0.02....buy the next issue of High Times that has the Cup winners and buy the strain from the breeder......or you can go with the "tried and true' White Widow..or Black Widow. You'll never read a bad review on any seed bank site.

Lol. Wow. Leave my computer for a day and i came back to this. I think anyone can see exactly what i was originally talking about in the thread title. However, there are some obvious trends/consistencies i can work with so thank you all for you answers.

Also for those of you who mentioned phenotypes, growing conditions, and growers skill thank you for being precise, but i was asking given that those factors were optimal.

Also one quick thing about there not being a "best" due to personal prefference. I guess what i really meant was best, or even amongst the best Quality. Obviously thereare things that some like and some dont, that doesnt mean that there isnt such a thing as higher quality. Otherwise why have cup competitions, or reviews, or seed banks at all? We could all just grow bagseed. Also im pretty sure most of us like stinky, strong, pretty, good tasting Cannabis theat yeilds well (not at the expense of other things for the "conesseiurs") and plants that grow with vigor right? I mean preference aside we all want those things dont we?
To answer Brother Numsi's last post, That’s exactly what i generally do/am talking about! I see/read Cup results (understanding anything can be influenced, although i do trust the results of the Cannabis cup, just not necessarily my ability to acquire the strains that win them, specific phenos notwithstanding) You read a great report on a strain, then go look for reviews on peoples experience acquiring seeds for it and the answers can be all over the map.

Here's an example. I’ve had my eye on God Bud since i became interested in all of this, figuring once i had a clue how to grow(organic/soil for those wondering, although not against hydro) ide plunk down some cash and try it out. We’ve all seen and read the wonderful accolades about this strain, and i think its got 4 cup wins at the moment. Everything ive read about this strains characteristics appeals to me. Now that im at that stage i get online and find out that BC Bud Depot is more or less despised/hated/distrusted.

So does that mean, anybody, that phoenix just isn’t gunna get any god bud?

And also, if a breeder's genetics are reported to be sound, but their Customer Service is not (directly to the public) can a person still successfully obtain those beans from a bank(middleman)? Basically the breeder is good about hooking up the bank but not customers directly so you just go through the bank instead? Does that happen?

Another question, What is up with the integrity of High Times? (ive switched to skunk, i like it a lot better) What i mean is ive read a number of negative posts about various things, and have noticed that two companies(VISC, BC BUD Depot) that have huge recurring (as in every issue) ads have a ton of bad reviews. I’ve also been looking at Fucking Incredible and Kat for years and again, cant really trust VISC based on what ive read either.Also ive personally answered some of their smaller ads in the back and literally got wrong numbers and no answers. I know that ads cost money, and money talks. But if these companies are really as bad as ive read why would HT damage their own rep as a Cannabis icon by continuing to run those ads?

Those last questions may be slightly misplaced for this thread but they actually relate directly to the rest of the discussion, which is can i trust, and expect to get close examples of strains that i read about in a Cup review for example? I believe that the bud the judges are judging is the real thing, i just want to know when i order beans of a strain i read about I'm getting the same beans that grew the plant that produced the bud the judges were judging. (and yes i know there are several factors to consider, I'm saying GENERALLY)


A lot of that you guys have already answered, not asking for repeats, just kinda solidifying my basic concerns.

Brother Numsi said:

So I'll add my $0.02....buy the next issue of High Times that has the Cup winners and buy the strain from the breeder......or you can go with the "tried and true' White Widow..or Black Widow. You'll never read a bad review on any seed bank site.

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Yea of course Whte Widow is great and well known, its succesfully acquiring real white widow seeds im talking about.

frozenphoenix said:

Yea of course Whte Widow is great and well known, its succesfully acquiring real white widow seeds im talking about.

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Cup winner means absolutely nothing except that breeder paid more than the others to win.

frozenphoenix said:

Yea of course Whte Widow is great and well known, its succesfully acquiring real white widow seeds im talking about.

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paradise seeds ww or mr.nice black widow...both are excellent representations of the legend

Kite High said:

paradise seeds ww or mr.nice black widow...both are excellent representations of the legend

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2nd this....

your going to have to find out what you like and try growing , i've gotten excellent strains that don't do well in my soil or in this part of texas , stay with what works for you , its a learning curve no one has this answer

frozenphoenix said:

Lol. Wow. Leave my computer for a day and i came back to this. I think anyone can see exactly what i was originally talking about in the thread title. However, there are some obvious trends/consistencies i can work with so thank you all for you answers.

Also for those of you who mentioned phenotypes, growing conditions, and growers skill thank you for being precise, but i was asking given that those factors were optimal.

Also one quick thing about there not being a "best" due to personal prefference. I guess what i really meant was best, or even amongst the best Quality. Obviously thereare things that some like and some dont, that doesnt mean that there isnt such a thing as higher quality. Otherwise why have cup competitions, or reviews, or seed banks at all? We could all just grow bagseed. Also im pretty sure most of us like stinky, strong, pretty, good tasting Cannabis theat yeilds well (not at the expense of other things for the "conesseiurs") and plants that grow with vigor right? I mean preference aside we all want those things dont we?
To answer Brother Numsi's last post, That’s exactly what i generally do/am talking about! I see/read Cup results (understanding anything can be influenced, although i do trust the results of the Cannabis cup, just not necessarily my ability to acquire the strains that win them, specific phenos notwithstanding) You read a great report on a strain, then go look for reviews on peoples experience acquiring seeds for it and the answers can be all over the map.

Here's an example. I’ve had my eye on God Bud since i became interested in all of this, figuring once i had a clue how to grow(organic/soil for those wondering, although not against hydro) ide plunk down some cash and try it out. We’ve all seen and read the wonderful accolades about this strain, and i think its got 4 cup wins at the moment. Everything ive read about this strains characteristics appeals to me. Now that im at that stage i get online and find out that BC Bud Depot is more or less despised/hated/distrusted.

So does that mean, anybody, that phoenix just isn’t gunna get any god bud?

And also, if a breeder's genetics are reported to be sound, but their Customer Service is not (directly to the public) can a person still successfully obtain those beans from a bank(middleman)? Basically the breeder is good about hooking up the bank but not customers directly so you just go through the bank instead? Does that happen?

Another question, What is up with the integrity of High Times? (ive switched to skunk, i like it a lot better) What i mean is ive read a number of negative posts about various things, and have noticed that two companies(VISC, BC BUD Depot) that have huge recurring (as in every issue) ads have a ton of bad reviews. I’ve also been looking at Fucking Incredible and Kat for years and again, cant really trust VISC based on what ive read either.Also ive personally answered some of their smaller ads in the back and literally got wrong numbers and no answers. I know that ads cost money, and money talks. But if these companies are really as bad as ive read why would HT damage their own rep as a Cannabis icon by continuing to run those ads?

Those last questions may be slightly misplaced for this thread but they actually relate directly to the rest of the discussion, which is can i trust, and expect to get close examples of strains that i read about in a Cup review for example? I believe that the bud the judges are judging is the real thing, i just want to know when i order beans of a strain i read about I'm getting the same beans that grew the plant that produced the bud the judges were judging. (and yes i know there are several factors to consider, I'm saying GENERALLY)


A lot of that you guys have already answered, not asking for repeats, just kinda solidifying my basic concerns.

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I still say that Kobe beef and Alaskan snow crab legs are both best quality, but I would not serve Chablis and Béarnaise with either ... cn

frozenphoenix said:

Also one quick thing about there not being a "best" due to personal prefference. I guess what i really meant was best, or even amongst the best Quality. Obviously thereare things that some like and some dont, that doesnt mean that there isnt such a thing as higher quality.

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Nobody is saying that every strain is equal. Obviously some strains are poor, some are better than others, and some are better than most. What I am saying is that without specific criteria as to what you mean by "best" its going to be impossible to determine which strains are the "best". (IE "best" in what way?). Even WITH criteria, there are so many strains out there, literally NOBODY has done the "apples to apples" comparsions between ALL of them, and its still going to be hard to determine this.

Which beer is "the best"? Can't name one. . .OK, which five beers are "the best"? I'd say instead of focusing on what's "best" (which is highly subjective) you just concentrate on finding what might be termed "world class" strains, that have distinguished themselves in one way or another.

Otherwise why have cup competitions, or reviews, or seed banks at all? We could all just grow bagseed.

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This is begging the question. Again, there are differences between strains, and many of the differences are important. Seedbanks serve as commercial brokers for various lines.

Cup competitions are mostly about public relations (ie selling product and generating interest). There are bragging rights associated with cup wins as well as business opportunities, though for plenty of reasons I won't get into, how good these contests are at picking "the best" strains is highly questionable.

Reviews, obviously, provide some subjective basis for comparison.

"Bagseed" is a curious construct. To me "bagseed" is just seeds found in your commercially purchased weed. Bagseed can be world-class, or it can be less than mediocre; it depends entirely on which bag it came from. The reasons everyone doesn't grow "bagseed" are because a. Not everyone has ready access to it, b. The genetics are unknown, and c. In many cases the genetics found in bagseed may not be optimal for grow in any given setup.

Also im pretty sure most of us like stinky, strong, pretty, good tasting Cannabis theat yeilds well (not at the expense of other things for the "conesseiurs") and plants that grow with vigor right? I mean preference aside we all want those things dont we?

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You can't set aside "preference".

Personally, I don't want "stinky" plants, and I think many stealth growers don't, either. I also couldn't care less if the plants look nice; I'm not interested in putting pictures of them on the cover of High Times magazine. I'll take yield if I can get it, but that's not even in my top three criteria in selecting a strain.

I'd say the qualities worth considering when selecting a strain include: Flowering time (or finishing date for outdoor grows), pest/heat/humidity tolerance, overall plant size and structure, consistency in phenotype (ie do you have to go through lots of plants to find one or "the one" you're looking for?), hermaphrodite tendency, cannabinoid ratios/medical effect/"high" quality, absolute potency (which is not the same as cannabinoid ratios), yield, scent/flavor, and overall difficulty growing. Different criteria are not only going to be differently important to different growers, but they may be different to the SAME grower in different grows.

As a matter of practice, not every positive trait is necessarily available together in line form. Sativa-type high and short flowering time usually don't go together. Yield and potency are often inversely correlated. Etc.

Here's an example. I’ve had my eye on God Bud since i became interested in all of this, figuring once i had a clue how to grow(organic/soil for those wondering, although not against hydro) ide plunk down some cash and try it out. We’ve all seen and read the wonderful accolades about this strain, and i think its got 4 cup wins at the moment. Everything ive read about this strains characteristics appeals to me. Now that im at that stage i get online and find out that BC Bud Depot is more or less despised/hated/distrusted.

So does that mean, anybody, that phoenix just isn’t gunna get any god bud?

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You tell us whether or not you're going to take a chance.

Personally, I won't order from that vendor, based on reputation, and that outfit does offer (at least on paper) at least a few lines I'd otherwise be interested in trying. There is so much excellent selection available in the market right now that I simply don't see any reason to take chances with vendors with less than stellar reputation.

And also, if a breeder's genetics are reported to be sound, but their Customer Service is not (directly to the public) can a person still successfully obtain those beans from a bank(middleman)? Basically the breeder is good about hooking up the bank but not customers directly so you just go through the bank instead? Does that happen?

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Happens all the time.

frozenphoenix said:

Another question, What is up with the integrity of High Times? (ive switched to skunk, i like it a lot better) What i mean is ive read a number of negative posts about various things, and have noticed that two companies(VISC, BC BUD Depot) that have huge recurring (as in every issue) ads have a ton of bad reviews. I’ve also been looking at Fucking Incredible and Kat for years and again, cant really trust VISC based on what ive read either.Also ive personally answered some of their smaller ads in the back and literally got wrong numbers and no answers. I know that ads cost money, and money talks. But if these companies are really as bad as ive read why would HT damage their own rep as a Cannabis icon by continuing to run those ads?

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To ask the question is to answer it.

Those last questions may be slightly misplaced for this thread but they actually relate directly to the rest of the discussion, which is can i trust, and expect to get close examples of strains that i read about in a Cup review for example?

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Yes, at least in some cases, its possible to buy off the shelf seeds for a commercial line that are genetically the same as a strain that won "a cup".
Doesn't mean you'll necessarily get the same pheno that won the cup.
Doesn't mean that even if you do, your grow will be as good as the pros who grew the award winning bud, (or that your cure will be as good, etc).
Doesn't mean that even if all of the above are true, that the cup-winning strain is really head and shoulders better or even ANY better than 20 other strains from other breeders that have been around for years, or that haven't been entered into any cup.
In some cases, there is legitimate line "drift" over time, and a particular breeders 2012 version of "cup winner 2005" may not be exactly the same as the stuff that won in 2005.

I believe that the bud the judges are judging is the real thing

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,
On what basis have you formed this opinion?

Have you been a judge in any contests? Have you examined the provenance of buds entered into contests?

I have not done either thing, but I think there are plenty of legitimate reasons to suspect that the results of judging of the High Times Cannabis Cup in particular are, shall we say, slightly "skewed", and I think that is the perception of breeders in the industry.

One reason, for example, is that the actual judges and editors of the contest have effectively admitted such publically, saying that the ceid sellers with the most promotion have an edge on winning the open-voted contests. (See the High Times 20th anniversary 2007 cup documentary; you can find it on You Tube).

There have been allegations of people entering commercially purchased weed into the contests (rather than stuff they've grown from lines they're selling). There have not only been allegations of outright judge bribery, but in fact Arjan Roskam of multiple cup winning house "Greenhouse Ceids" has had two cup wins reversed one year after he was caught red-handed bribing judges. Of course he only bribed judges THAT year, right, and NONE of his other 20+ cup wins (before and after) could POSSIBLY have been tainted by bribery! Also, the criteria for entering the contest are obscure, and entries are limited. In practice, lots of good breeders won't even bother to enter the HTCC because entering is expensive, difficult, and they believe the playing field isn't really level.

I could go on, but suffice it to say that in my opinion, cannabis cups in general (and High Times one in particular) are questionable ways of identifying "the best" strains, and there are plenty of reasons to be skeptical about the contest results in individual cases. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of excellent time-proven tried-and-true strains that have won cups (eg Skunk #1, Northern lights, etc), but in general I wouldn't pick ANY strain solely because it won some cup.

i just want to know when i order beans of a strain i read about I'm getting the same beans that grew the plant that produced the bud the judges were judging. (and yes i know there are several factors to consider, I'm saying GENERALLY)

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In some cases this will be true, but in some cases it won't. How can you possibly know for sure?

See above for reasons why this may not be true, and for reasons why even if it IS true, these "award winning" strains may not be the best ones anyway.

What good does it do you if a particular "award winning" strain has a 16 week flowering time, is low yield, highly finicky, and hermaphrodite prone? Again, I'm not going to name names here but there are two sellers in particular that have a lot of cup wins between them, but questionable genetics and business practices.

The grower is equally as important as the seeds. Bad growers can make great genetics look bad. Good growers can make good genetics look wonderful. Neither good nor bad growers can make bad genetics into good smoke, but I guess it's all relative. Choose wisely, young grasshopper.

frozenphoenix said:

Yea of course Whte Widow is great and well known, its succesfully acquiring real white widow seeds im talking about.

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There are at least ten different sellers offering ceids they call "White Widow" and not only are they not all great, but in many cases they actually represent entirely different genetics.

For example, Dinafem lists the parents of its version as Northern Lights, Skunk, and Haze. . .the same genetic provenance as Jack Herer and Super Silver Haze, though presumably Dinafem did its selection for this line for maximum resin production.

By most accounts Dinafem's "White Widow" is excellent in its own right, but its entirely different genetically from the Mr. Nice Brazillian sativa x Afghan "Black Widow" strain that many/most believe represent the true/original cup winning White widow strain from the early/mid 1990s.

If you want the Mr. Nice ceids, they're not difficult to acquire. Multiple ceidbanks offer them; they're merely a bit pricey.

Needless to say, I disagree with Nunsi a bit on this.

Yes, if you are interested in growing the High Times Cannabis cup winning strains in particular, your best bet is to buy the ceids from the original breeders if you can (either directly, or, probably more conveniently, through a middleman ceidbank) then grow them.

Again, whether or not you get *exactly* the same genetics as the cup winning ones is questionable, though its pretty likely that you either will, or you'll get something pretty close. The question to me isn't whether or not cup-winning genetics are available to the public (absolutely, they are), its whether or not these cup winning strains are really the best ones to buy/grow to begin with.