babylonburn
Well-Known Member
if that say say was put to reality then it would be ONE love,light,law....ONE
Christianity has been debunked once and for all
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nickfury510
Well-Known Member
The progress of science can be said to be harmful to religion only in so far as it is used for evil aims and not because it claims a priority over religion in its revelation to man. It is important that spiritual advancement must keep pace with material advancement. When this comes to be realized man's journey toward higher and more lasting values will show more marked progress while the evil in him recedes into the background. Knowing that material and spiritual progress are essential to man, we must ceaselessly work for the equal attainment of both. Only then shall we be able to acquire that absolute inner calm so necessary to our well-being.
It is only when a people strike an even balance between scientific progress and spiritual and moral advancement that it can be said to possess a wholly perfect and complete personality and not a lopsided one ......H.I.M. Halie Selassie InI
It is only when a people strike an even balance between scientific progress and spiritual and moral advancement that it can be said to possess a wholly perfect and complete personality and not a lopsided one ......H.I.M. Halie Selassie InI
nickfury510
Well-Known Member
Since nobody can interfere in the realm of God we should tolerate and live side by side with those of other faiths. In the mystic traditions of the different religions we have a remarkable unity of spirit. Whatever religion they may profess, they are spiritual kinsmen. While the different religions in their historic forms bind us to limited groups and militate against the development of loyalty to the world community, the mystics have already stood for the fellowship of humanity in harmony with the spirit of the mystics of ages gone by....... Selassie I
royalewithcheese40
Active Member
very well put Nick.
Seamaiden
Well-Known Member
I'd call this 'truth'. As Ghandi said, yeah?
royalewithcheese40
Active Member
scientific progress is almost irrelevent if society is too ignorant or blind to except it. most people wont even hear it. god is the answer and thats it. just like Niche said, religion holds society down.
we are all too caught up in american idol, the kardashian whores, and deal or no deal to give a shit about progress, thought, discovery, or anything else we humans used to be so good at. we spend trillions of dollars a year on distractions like war, politics and intertainment but if you ask most people to aprove a few million bucks to explore the unexplored they ask why its necessary!
there are more galaxies in space than sand on all the beaches.... and we still beleave in jesus?? a guy who walked the earth less than 3000 years ago! is it just me or is this crazy?
we are all too caught up in american idol, the kardashian whores, and deal or no deal to give a shit about progress, thought, discovery, or anything else we humans used to be so good at. we spend trillions of dollars a year on distractions like war, politics and intertainment but if you ask most people to aprove a few million bucks to explore the unexplored they ask why its necessary!
there are more galaxies in space than sand on all the beaches.... and we still beleave in jesus?? a guy who walked the earth less than 3000 years ago! is it just me or is this crazy?
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Either God is a giant asshole who likes to enjoy people suffering,
or he isn't all powerful,
or he doesn't exist.
I'll use Occam's razor and go with the last option.
QUOTE (Epicurius @ the problem of evil)
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
or he isn't all powerful,
or he doesn't exist.
I'll use Occam's razor and go with the last option.
QUOTE (Epicurius @ the problem of evil)
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
royalewithcheese40
Active Member
i think i heard some heads explode...
trishmybiscuits
Well-Known Member
If what the Christians believe is true, at the current death rate around the world God would have only .57 seconds to judge a person at the time of their death before moving on to the next. Do you believe your god can actually do that? And even if he could, would he?
ZenMaster
Well-Known Member
I think i'll help you out with your conundrum with a story I read awhile back-
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]"Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The
atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of
his new students to stand.
"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes sir," the student says.
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a
moment.
"Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you
can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you
could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't,
does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he
prayed to Jesus to heal him How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you
answer that one?"
The student remains silent.
"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water
from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
"Let's start again, young fella Is God good?"
"Er...yes," the student says.
"Is Satan good?"
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."
"Then where does Satan come from?"
The student : "From...God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil
in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"
"Yes."
"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created
everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the
principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues: "Is
there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things,
do they exist in this world?"
The student: "Yes."
"So who created them?"
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his
question. "Who created them? There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer
breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.
"Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus
Christ, son?"
The student's voice is confident: "Yes, professor, I do."
The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use
to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
"No sir. I've never seen Him"
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir, I have not."
"Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt
your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or
God for that matter?"
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"Yes."
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"
"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."
"Yes , faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science
has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of
his own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"And is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No sir, there isn't."
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The
room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can
have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited
heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything
called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat,
but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as
cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.
Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits
energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit
energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir,
cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot
measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy.
Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom,
sounding like a hammer.
"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it
isn't darkness?"
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence
of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light,
flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and
it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the
word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make
darkness darker, wouldn't you?"
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This
will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to
start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can
you explain how?"
"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains.
"You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad
God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something
we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses
electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood
either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of
the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not
the opposite of life, just the absence of it."
"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved
from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man,
yes, of course I do"
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes
where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and
cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not
teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a
preacher?"
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion
has subsided.
"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student,
let me give you an example of what I mean."
The student looks around the room. "Is there any one in the class who
has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into
laughter.
"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt
the professor's brain, touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one
appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of
empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no
brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain,
how can we trust your lectures, sir?"
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his
face unreadable.
Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess
you'll have to take them on faith."
"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with
life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as
evil?"
Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it
everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is
in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These
manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it
does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is
just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the
absence of God.
God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man
does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that
comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no
light."
The professor sat down.[/FONT]
email468
Well-Known Member
That must have been a theology professor since a prof with any kind of science background (hell even a decent logic background) would blow the student's moronic comparisons out of the water. This must have been a bible college.
And besides the whole argument is stupid -- science doesn't "prove" negatives (you can't). You know this Zen - yet you persist in making this assumption. Science does not prove god one way or the other. The only thing I, and other science-minded folks say, is there is no scientific evidence for god. There are certainly rhetorical arguments and circumstantial evidence - just no scientific evidence.
Besides - faith is supposed to trump all - why do you care if there is evidence of not?
And besides the whole argument is stupid -- science doesn't "prove" negatives (you can't). You know this Zen - yet you persist in making this assumption. Science does not prove god one way or the other. The only thing I, and other science-minded folks say, is there is no scientific evidence for god. There are certainly rhetorical arguments and circumstantial evidence - just no scientific evidence.
Besides - faith is supposed to trump all - why do you care if there is evidence of not?
ZenMaster
Well-Known Member
I wasn't after "proving" God to you. I was trying to shed light on the question "why God lets evil happen". The fact is, that we are the ones screwin up but we blame God. If more people took responsibility for their actions this world would be a lot better.
And how would a true, Email468 Approved, scientist "blow" the student's comparison out of the water? He just argued that evil wasn't a product of God's, it is an absence of God.
email468
Well-Known Member
I was talking about his rhetorical style. The whole hot and cold argument is moot when comparing to good and evil. Something measurable and objective (temperature) vs. something intangible and subjective (good and evil).
God is the boss - God runs the show - the buck stops with God. He chooses not to stop evil and by doing so at least tolerates - if not condones it. So I am evil cause i don't believe in god? fuck that noise.
ZenMaster
Well-Known Member
Hmm, are you sure you read the story throughly? I am having the assumption that you skimmed threw it at a barely tolerable level because you have a conflicting ideology.
Reason why I assume this is because his reference to Hot - Cold was merely scientific. We cannot measure cold, just heat. So cold is the absence of heat, as well is darkness to light. He had to put it in a way so the scientist could understand
You are not evil, just maybe proud. God doesn't hate you, he never will. There will be a day when you will need God, and he will be there.
email468
Well-Known Member
thanks zen -- i don't think i'm evil either. I did read it (i even read it several times as this is not the first time you've posted it). It is an interesting argument no doubt. It is just comparing apples and oranges.Hmm, are you sure you read the story throughly? I am having the assumption that you skimmed threw it at a barely tolerable level because you have a conflicting ideology.
Reason why I assume this is because his reference to Hot - Cold was merely scientific. We cannot measure cold, just heat. So cold is the absence of heat, as well is darkness to light. He had to put it in a way so the scientist could understand
You are not evil, just maybe proud. God doesn't hate you, he never will. There will be a day when you will need God, and he will be there.
The scientist understands that you can't measure or observe good and evil other than subjectively. that is where the argument breaks down.
You act as though I've never needed divine intervention yet in my life. I am not a young man and have had my share of ups and downs. There were plenty of opportunities for a miracle. Oddly, i've always had to make my own miracles happen - maybe that is what makes me proud. I do have pride - nothing feels quite as good as achieving a difficult goal - i swell with pride doing that! but i can be humble and thankful and needy too. i'm a human just like you - same problems, feelings, emotions, needs, etc...
We TaRdED
Well-Known Member
For the record email, I think your a great guy. I always love reading your posts. You are one of the most.......errrr......*thinking of a good word*.... logical and scientific "posters" on RIU.
I personally don't think someone is "evil" because they don't believe in God. As you have proven, there is no scientific facts about God besides the Bible. You are utterly scientific(smart) and need evidence before you poise your position, you are at the same time open minded about God and would love to believe in Him if you had tangible evidence.
I respect your views and I know a lot of other people do too. If there is a heaven, I believe the key to getting into it is being a kind and genuine person.
How can so many religions be the only "right" religion and all others will not permit you into heaven? Keep giving money to our church and they will permit you into heaven for all eternity. Is that so far off from the way the middle easterners think about getting 30 virgins in heaven for doing "good" deeds? It is a promise from the church to you that you have no way of telling if its right or wrong unless you are dead. REREAD MY LAST SENTANCE! You must have blind faith in order to get into through the gates of heaven... What bull if you ask me, why not every person that has good intentions and tries to make the world better be able to go to heaven.. Ohh yeah,..... the church would not be able to collect as much funds that way... Shoot... (Sorry to all the believers, I was a Christian less than 6 months ago. I have been opening my eyes though and can't deny facts because I am like email in regards to needing evidence. Watch this movie, the first 10 mins or so are gay though.Zeitgeist - The Movie)
RON PAUL REVOLUTION
~PEACE~
I personally don't think someone is "evil" because they don't believe in God. As you have proven, there is no scientific facts about God besides the Bible. You are utterly scientific(smart) and need evidence before you poise your position, you are at the same time open minded about God and would love to believe in Him if you had tangible evidence.
I respect your views and I know a lot of other people do too. If there is a heaven, I believe the key to getting into it is being a kind and genuine person.
How can so many religions be the only "right" religion and all others will not permit you into heaven? Keep giving money to our church and they will permit you into heaven for all eternity. Is that so far off from the way the middle easterners think about getting 30 virgins in heaven for doing "good" deeds? It is a promise from the church to you that you have no way of telling if its right or wrong unless you are dead. REREAD MY LAST SENTANCE! You must have blind faith in order to get into through the gates of heaven... What bull if you ask me, why not every person that has good intentions and tries to make the world better be able to go to heaven.. Ohh yeah,..... the church would not be able to collect as much funds that way... Shoot... (Sorry to all the believers, I was a Christian less than 6 months ago. I have been opening my eyes though and can't deny facts because I am like email in regards to needing evidence. Watch this movie, the first 10 mins or so are gay though.Zeitgeist - The Movie)
RON PAUL REVOLUTION
~PEACE~
email468
Well-Known Member
Thanks WE. I would like to take the opportunity to add there are plenty of scientists that believe in God and other higher power belief systems. Just because there is no evidence does not mean no one should believe and it sure as hell isn't my decision to make! I realize you probably understand this already - just wanted to take the time to make my position clear.
I just get riled when I see folks claiming scientific evidence exists for their faith-based beliefs.
We TaRdED
Well-Known Member
For the record, I'm not a disbeliever. I am just a little lost right now. I believe in a higher power that put the universe together, but, just not the way its depicted in the Bible, Koran, Torah, etc etc.
Anyways g2g, talk to you all later..
RON PAUL REVOLUTION
~PEACE~
Anyways g2g, talk to you all later..
RON PAUL REVOLUTION
~PEACE~
"Evil is the result of what happens when man
does not have God's love present in his heart."
What? This is obviously wrong due to the massive amount of evidence history has shown. And the things stated in the bible. It is indisputable that the Old Testament says that God (going by the name Yahweh) ordered the Israelites to commit genocide against entire groups of peoples, i.e, the city of Jericho, the Amalekites and others.
"I wasn't after "proving" God to you. I was trying to shed light on the question "why God lets evil happen". The fact is, that we are the ones screwin up but we blame God. If more people took responsibility for their actions this world would be a lot better."
It didn't shed any light. I disagree with its conclusion. The fact of the matter is, if god created us, then he created our ability for evil. If we screw up, it is only because god gave us that ability. Totally different then a Light vs Dark situation. Yes, Darkness is nothing, but evil is something god has to of created like he created everything else.
Why would a all knowing, all powerful, Perfect being, create imperfection? Is he not all powerful? Not all knowing? As said before, then why call him god?
Did he do it just to toy with us? Are we some sort of lab experiment? Gods willingness to sit by while all sorts of horrid things happen, is evidence to his non-existence.
If you were a perfect being who created a perfect world, would you trash it all because some douchebag ate an apple from a tree? Please.... Have to be a big asshole to do something like that. Especially seeing as you also created the freaking tree.
Evil is not just the absence of good as the story seems to imply.
does not have God's love present in his heart."
What? This is obviously wrong due to the massive amount of evidence history has shown. And the things stated in the bible. It is indisputable that the Old Testament says that God (going by the name Yahweh) ordered the Israelites to commit genocide against entire groups of peoples, i.e, the city of Jericho, the Amalekites and others.
"I wasn't after "proving" God to you. I was trying to shed light on the question "why God lets evil happen". The fact is, that we are the ones screwin up but we blame God. If more people took responsibility for their actions this world would be a lot better."
It didn't shed any light. I disagree with its conclusion. The fact of the matter is, if god created us, then he created our ability for evil. If we screw up, it is only because god gave us that ability. Totally different then a Light vs Dark situation. Yes, Darkness is nothing, but evil is something god has to of created like he created everything else.
Why would a all knowing, all powerful, Perfect being, create imperfection? Is he not all powerful? Not all knowing? As said before, then why call him god?
Did he do it just to toy with us? Are we some sort of lab experiment? Gods willingness to sit by while all sorts of horrid things happen, is evidence to his non-existence.
If you were a perfect being who created a perfect world, would you trash it all because some douchebag ate an apple from a tree? Please.... Have to be a big asshole to do something like that. Especially seeing as you also created the freaking tree.
Evil is not just the absence of good as the story seems to imply.
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royalewithcheese40
Active Member
evil is the absence of god? what? if comparing to the hot/cold argument wouldnt evil be the absence of good? ohhh, you just put an extra O you meant to say good right?? hahah lol christians make me laugh.
yes believing in god is ok. its actually logical because there are so many unknowns like dark matter, paralells and what not. but you'd have to be a stupid mother f-er to live your life according to what a historically ambiguous and logically void book tells you. and yes you can measure evolution. oh wait, fossils are fake right?
finally, I think when it comes to evil, we all have to remember one thing. WE ARE ANIMALS!! we are only held back by the mores of our current society.
yes believing in god is ok. its actually logical because there are so many unknowns like dark matter, paralells and what not. but you'd have to be a stupid mother f-er to live your life according to what a historically ambiguous and logically void book tells you. and yes you can measure evolution. oh wait, fossils are fake right?
finally, I think when it comes to evil, we all have to remember one thing. WE ARE ANIMALS!! we are only held back by the mores of our current society.
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