Citric Acid

Ive done a few slurry tests on pH in my sips.Seems to be a bit too green with the drops test.
Amendment of OSF, lime, and others over time with my hard water could have an effect.
Was going to start dropping my tap ph a little,its 7.2 ish.
The last while Ive changed my inputs to ones without ph buffering properties.
Thoughts on adding it to my sip res or top watering it in? Thanks

7.2 should be fine for organics. The runoff PH won't accurately reflect what is happening in the root zone, which will become more acidic over time. I wouldn't adjust the PH for now, and would only consider it in the future if you are 100% sure there is a problem. Do your plants look healthy?

Rurumo said:

7.2 should be fine for organics. The runoff PH won't accurately reflect what is happening in the root zone, which will become more acidic over time. I wouldn't adjust the PH for now, and would only consider it in the future if you are 100% sure there is a problem. Do your plants look healthy?

Click to expand...

Yup plants look good. Just thinking over time with the calcium carbonate in my tap water and the amendments I’ve added over the last couple of years it seams to have crept up. No way of really knowing for sure as all I’ve done is slurry tests here and there.

From what I read the ph will just climb back up anyway so i think for it to be effective I’d have to add it every watering no ?

What is the pH of your soil approximately? That may not be an issue. 7.2 tap could be ok for organic growing if you weren't growing in sips. The reason I say that is because root tips exude lots of acids to uptake nutrients...especially for calcium since it can only be taken in through the root tips. The "dry down" of the soil makes those acids more effective since more moisture dilutes them. Despite what most people believe about microbes making nutrients available for plants, the plant isn't dependent on them to feed and the roots uptake a crapload of nutrients on their own. The other issue would be that the metals(copper, iron, manganese, zinc, boron) will never be available at 7.2 if you even have them in your soil mix in sufficient quantities to begin with. 6.5 is the upper limit for metal availability and the lower limit for phosphorous availability. I'd pH your water to 6.5, and if it's high in bicarbonates, use a different source of water as bicarbonates will tie up all your calcium carbonate and make it unavailable to the plant.

Brawndo G said:

What is the pH of your soil approximately? That may not be an issue. 7.2 tap could be ok for organic growing if you weren't growing in sips. The reason I say that is because root tips exude lots of acids to uptake nutrients...especially for calcium since it can only be taken in through the root tips. The "dry down" of the soil makes those acids more effective since more moisture dilutes them. Despite what most people believe about microbes making nutrients available for plants, the plant isn't dependent on them to feed and the roots uptake a crapload of nutrients on their own. The other issue would be that the metals(copper, iron, manganese, zinc, boron) will never be available at 7.2 if you even have them in your soil mix in sufficient quantities to begin with. 6.5 is the upper limit for metal availability and the lower limit for phosphorous availability. I'd pH your water to 6.5, and if it's high in bicarbonates, use a different source of water as bicarbonates will tie up all your calcium carbonate and make it unavailable to the plant.

Click to expand...

My water is hard,close to the mountains.Full of Ca and Mg.

Brawndo G said:

It sounds like you're saying that hard water is good for growing weed. That is not the case.

Click to expand...

Hey it works well enough for me,Ive since sprinkled a bit of citric acid into my watering.Will see what happens.

My point was that having lots of ca in tap water doesn't equate to calcium availability or uptake by the plant. I wasn't criticizing your growing skills. Do what you want.

When I first started hydro I was using Flora Nova Bloom. At the time it said on the label 3% citric acid... When GH changed hands the new owners took it out... I did notice I needed more ph down, and it changed faster. I've switched to a dry fert now.

Brawndo G said:

What is the pH of your soil approximately? That may not be an issue. 7.2 tap could be ok for organic growing if you weren't growing in sips. The reason I say that is because root tips exude lots of acids to uptake nutrients...especially for calcium since it can only be taken in through the root tips. The "dry down" of the soil makes those acids more effective since more moisture dilutes them. Despite what most people believe about microbes making nutrients available for plants, the plant isn't dependent on them to feed and the roots uptake a crapload of nutrients on their own. The other issue would be that the metals(copper, iron, manganese, zinc, boron) will never be available at 7.2 if you even have them in your soil mix in sufficient quantities to begin with. 6.5 is the upper limit for metal availability and the lower limit for phosphorous availability. I'd pH your water to 6.5, and if it's high in bicarbonates, use a different source of water as bicarbonates will tie up all your calcium carbonate and make it unavailable to the plant.

Click to expand...

The plant is dependent on the microbes, to break down organic matter into usable nutrient. So, in your opinion, the plant doesn't need the microbes to break down the amendments? I've been wasting all this time and money on compost tea, ewc, compost for nothing? Where were you a year ago, when I was first learning organics?

myke said:

Ive done a few slurry tests on pH in my sips.Seems to be a bit too green with the drops test.
Amendment of OSF, lime, and others over time with my hard water could have an effect.
Was going to start dropping my tap ph a little,its 7.2 ish.
The last while Ive changed my inputs to ones without ph buffering properties.
Thoughts on adding it to my sip res or top watering it in? Thanks

Click to expand...

it will lower ph but it decomposes in water after a shot time soo you have your starting ph next day

Hollatchaboy said:

The plant is dependent on the microbes, to break down organic matter into usable nutrient. So, in your opinion, the plant doesn't need the microbes to break down the amendments? I've been wasting all this time and money on compost tea, ewc, compost for nothing? Where were you a year ago, when I was first learning organics?

Click to expand...

Yes. The plant can eat by itself. Crazy I know. I never said microbes aren't beneficial. Ideally, most of the nutrients are already broken down and "available" before planting anyway.

Brawndo G said:

Yes. The plant can eat by itself. Crazy I know. I never said microbes aren't beneficial. Ideally, most of the nutrients are already broken down and "available" before planting anyway.

Click to expand...

Yea.... not in no till.

If you're saying that the nutrients aren't broken down when you plant in no till, then I agree with you. Explain this to me though, if you're growing an annual plant with a short life cycle, why are you using a long-term fertilizing program? We want the nutrients available now, not next year or the year after.

Brawndo G said:

If you're saying that the nutrients aren't broken down when you plant in no till, then I agree with you. Explain this to me though, if you're growing an annual plant with a short life cycle, why are you using a long-term fertilizing program? We want the nutrients available now, not next year or the year after.

Click to expand...

I want them available to this plant and the next one and the one after that and so on.

PadawanWarrior said:

I want them available to this plant and the next one and the one after that and so on.

Click to expand...

Thank you. That's exactly why.

Brawndo G said:

If you're saying that the nutrients aren't broken down when you plant in no till, then I agree with you. Explain this to me though, if you're growing an annual plant with a short life cycle, why are you using a long-term fertilizing program? We want the nutrients available now, not next year or the year after.

Click to expand...

Really it doesn't take that long for a lot of it to break down. Just a few weeks. If I miss a feeding in my sip, my plant will give me shit for it. It's like a gut, breaking shit down quick, fast, and in a hurry.

PadawanWarrior said:

I want them available to this plant and the next one and the one after that and so on.

Click to expand...

Organic amended soil that isn't no-till still has nutrients available for multiple crops. Of course, re-amending between cycles based on a soil analysis will yield the best results.

Brawndo G said:

Organic amended soil that isn't no-till still has nutrients available for multiple crops. Of course, re-amending between cycles based on a soil analysis will yield the best results.

Click to expand...

I know what I'm talking about. I have 4 Brawndo shirts.

My two cents… my well water is about 7.2 and 220ppm full of CaCO3 as well. I was having all kinds of def, lock out and pH issues showing up in my last run since using only well water. It got worse over time and it was only when I flushed, started using rain water and pHing my water to get things back on track. In fact, I think things are still balancing out. Running no-till, 3rd run. Picking up a Bluelabs pH soil pen was a huge help.

I think what was happening for me wastwo issues: too much N and an accumulation of CaCO3 over time in my pots, given there’s never any runoff.That was causing antagonism of Mg and K and I believe was also contributing to what I found to be an average soil pH of around 7.5 when I first checked. Have been using the smallest amount of citric acid to drop the pH of anything I water to 5.8-6.0. Soil pH on average is now 6.8, which I’m much happier with. I like using pH measurement in my grow to give me info - many will say you don’t need to worry about pH with organics, this is true when things are going well, but it’s awfully handy to know what’s up when things aren’t.