Climate in the 21st Century

Which one would make a more efficient EV?

DIY-HP-LED said:

Which one would make a more efficient EV?

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Yeah, well, the only thing that can stop a man with a big truck... is another man with a bigger truck!

It's kinda like asking which is better, aids or cancer. They both suck aerodynamically, which has a major exponential effect on efficiency.

Now this would be a better starting point:

Sativied said:

Yeah, well, the only thing that can stop a man with a big truck... is another man with a bigger truck!

It's kinda like asking which is better, aids or cancer. They both suck aerodynamically, which has a major exponential effect on efficiency.

Now this would be a better starting point:
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No matter how good batteries get, a kilowatt guzzler half ton or SUV will always take longer and cost more to recharge. When it comes to EVs lighter is better though, and a future battery with 1000Wh/kg will make a huge difference in efficiency. Right now, most EVs are so heavy with battery pack weight that they wear out their tires and it makes their overall efficiency suck. Better batteries are coming soon though and as they get better so will the appeal of EVs.

These PV cells are cheap to make and efficient, can be made flexible and now are lasting a lot longer under higher temperatures. About 1000W/square meter of sunlight falls at the earth's surface and these can generate about 250 watts/ square meter, so covering an area of 4 square meters they should generate 1 kW of electricity. The roof, hood and part of the rear area of a compact car should be equal to about 4 square meters. A compact hatchback sized solar car using these cells without even using tandem cells, with an even higher efficiency, should be able to recharge itself at a rate of 1kWh. New more energy dense batteries should easily give such a vehicle a 10km/kWh efficiency and that mostly depends on the battery weight. 5 or 6 hours in the sun (depending on the season and how far north) it should give a minimum of 40km range of recharge a day. In Canada such a vehicle might need to recharge from home from time to time for 3 months during winter when the days are short, and the sun angle is low. For most people in the America, they would never need to plug it in. For most people their daily commute is less than 50km and most people could get a 100km recharge range a day in America.

This is one implication of better batteries and solar cells that are on their way or in some cases already here, some more exotic solar cars already get 16km/kWh, some Tesla's currently get over 10km/kWh with a very large battery that weighs a lot. Getting 10km with a conventional looking vehicle has already been done, even the current solar cells are enough. The magic sauce is the battery and the more Wh/kg it can store the better and the more efficient and cheaper the EV can be. I think in 10 years with battery improvements a lot of the cars on the road will be solar rechargeable and the further south you are the more it will make sense to buy one. Maybe we won't need as many recharge points as we thought, or they might end up not being used by most people. Even larger vehicles could benefit from solar charging to supplement their batteries, but light vehicles like compact and subcompact and minivans too shouldn't need to be recharged for most daily use, especially if the battery had a range to 500 or more kilometers.

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DIY-HP-LED said:

No matter how good batteries get, a kilowatt guzzler half ton or SUV will always take longer and cost more to recharge. When it comes to EVs lighter is better though, and a future battery with 1000Wh/kg will make a huge difference in efficiency. Right now, most EVs are so heavy with battery pack weight that they wear out their tires and it makes their overall efficiency suck. Better batteries are coming soon though and as they get better so will the appeal of EVs.

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Compared to what exactly? Aside from future batteries that is. Money per mile using an ICE? The tire wear of EVs doesn't come close to the wear and tear of all many, more expensive, component of ICE cars. Then, we do have strict laws on tire wear, so need to replace them frequently anyway.

Volvo XC40:



Not as big as the monster truck you posted but pretty big nonetheless, and quite boxy shape. Up to 572km / 355miles range. 34min to charge from 10% to 80%. 0-100% in 7 hours at home charge option, built-in 11 kW charger. 3.634miles /kWh, 17,1 kWh/100km. Though with 13 Harman Kardon speakers totaling 600watt 'ymmv'.

Or the second most popular EV in NL, the Polestar 2, not quite a compact car either, range up to 655km / 407miles, similar charge times. It just shows that battery efficiency isn't such a major obstacle or deal breaker. The available charging options are, the perception of potential buyers is. Do you have any numbers on how many car buyers are waiting on those better batteries that are coming soon? It's a bit of a moot point by now, there will always be the next more efficient 'better' batteries. What matters is what manufacturers actually offer.

Sativied said:

Compared to what exactly? Aside from future batteries that is. Money per mile using an ICE? The tire wear of EVs doesn't come close to the wear and tear of all many, more expensive, component of ICE cars. Then, we do have strict laws on tire wear, so need to replace them frequently anyway.

Volvo XC40:

View attachment 5339766

Not as big as the monster truck you posted but pretty big nonetheless, and quite boxy shape. Up to 572km / 355miles range. 34min to charge from 10% to 80%. 0-100% in 7 hours at home charge option, built-in 11 kW charger. 3.634miles /kWh, 17,1 kWh/100km. Though with 13 Harman Kardon speakers totaling 600watt 'ymmv'.

Or the second most popular EV in NL, the Polestar 2, not quite a compact car either, range up to 655km / 407miles, similar charge times. It just shows that battery efficiency isn't such a major obstacle or deal breaker. The available charging options are, the perception of potential buyers is. Do you have any numbers on how many car buyers are waiting on those better batteries that are coming soon? It's a bit of a moot point by now, there will always be the next more efficient 'better' batteries. What matters is what manufacturers actually offer.

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EV sales are stagnating and there are plenty of complaints about range and cold weather performance. From what I've been seeing we should have better batteries with more kWh/kg and less battery for the same buck means more efficiency, less material and even lower costs. Just from the number of battery factories under construction, the constant stream of innovation and R&D, indicate batteries and EVs are about to get cheaper and much better over the next few years. As for better future batteries we will reach a tipping point, right now it's mostly just Li-ion first generation batteries from a modern perspective, they have been incidentally improved, but other chemistries will dominate, and fire safety will be less of a concern.

My main point is batteries are getting so much better and cheaper that the case for EVs becomes even more compelling and they should appeal to a wider spectrum of people. I also believe many future EVs will be solar charged similar the one you posted above and could solar charge up to 100km of range a day for well over 6 months of the year in Europe, which is pretty far north compared to North America. A battery that could take it 1000km and weigh just 100 kilos should be possible in the near future. It would be a better choice for renters and might mean a lot less charging points and load on the grid.

Sativied said:

Compared to what exactly? Aside from future batteries that is. Money per mile using an ICE? The tire wear of EVs doesn't come close to the wear and tear of all many, more expensive, component of ICE cars. Then, we do have strict laws on tire wear, so need to replace them frequently anyway.

Volvo XC40:

View attachment 5339766

Not as big as the monster truck you posted but pretty big nonetheless, and quite boxy shape. Up to 572km / 355miles range. 34min to charge from 10% to 80%. 0-100% in 7 hours at home charge option, built-in 11 kW charger. 3.634miles /kWh, 17,1 kWh/100km. Though with 13 Harman Kardon speakers totaling 600watt 'ymmv'.

Or the second most popular EV in NL, the Polestar 2, not quite a compact car either, range up to 655km / 407miles, similar charge times. It just shows that battery efficiency isn't such a major obstacle or deal breaker. The available charging options are, the perception of potential buyers is. Do you have any numbers on how many car buyers are waiting on those better batteries that are coming soon? It's a bit of a moot point by now, there will always be the next more efficient 'better' batteries. What matters is what manufacturers actually offer.

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I'm waiting for charge on the fly. There is no reason for cords.


We have come a long way from learning to use a manual choke.

Grandpapy said:

I'm waiting for charge on the fly. There is no reason for cords.


We have come a long way from learning to use a manual choke.

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People forget how maintenance intensive cars used to be, points, plugs and a tune up every year with the front end greased and before tubeless tires flats were a lot more common. The next decade should see the beginning of the end for ICE cars, especially as batteries improve and costs come down with mass production.

Grandpapy said:

I'm waiting for charge on the fly. There is no reason for cords.


We have come a long way from learning to use a manual choke.

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Manual chokes rarely fail

Most of the early adopters have already bought an EV, the next bunch is waiting for better batteries with better performance and range, less battery more EV and charging points. Many new battery designs eliminate cobalt or reduce its usage by a lot, future batteries must be made from more common materials.

Cobalt prices won't stay low the market is too problematic and unstable, besides it presents environmental issues.

DIY-HP-LED said:

I think the weak link the petroleum fuel system will be gas stations they make the least amount of profit from the system and are on the consumer end. . . . . . . . . . . . .

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Each and every gas station is a potential toxic waste site. No one will want to own them because they would become responsible for the cleanup. It's going to be worse than the empty shopping centers because they are on every corner. And as well as we take care of problems before they happen, I see us looking into this about 25 years after it becomes obvious we have a problem.

Made in Vietnam assembled in America, so none of those pesky China trade issues. A better battery to increase range and efficiency, solar panels for recharging and you got yer basic subcompact solar recharged car. This one is expected to sell for around $12,500 with a rebate, but they should get much better with next generation batteries and looks like it could be recharged using 120 volts overnight with an internal charger and fast charged in no time flat. Reminds me of an Austin mini.


$12,500 VinFast VF3 Mini Electric Car coming to the United States

injinji said:

Each and every gas station is a potential toxic waste site. No one will want to own them because they would become responsible for the cleanup. It's going to be worse than the empty shopping centers because they are on every corner. And as well as we take care of problems before they happen, I see us looking into this about 25 years after it becomes obvious we have a problem.

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The tanks have to come up and the ground environmentally mitigated here. When I was a kid there were over a dozen gas stations in town, now we are down to just 3 and have been for a few years. A lot of gas stations have disappeared over the last few decades anyway and I dunno how popular fast charging will be in urban environments with most including tenants being able to charge from home and perhaps only have to do that overnight once or twice a week.

The average commute even in America is less than 40km a day and solar could recharge an efficient EV to that range at least in most places for most of the year. Efficient EVs like that come with better batteries that have higher power densities, we can already generate a kilowatt of solar power off most small car hoods and roofs and with better batteries 10Km per kilowatt hour is easily attainable. I'm skeptical about the long-term viability of fast charging for light vehicles in many places and think eventually solar can do the job for many people, especially those living in the southern US and in subtropical and tropical countries.

This is an interim solution IMO, safer, more power dense and cheaper batteries are the solution to EVs and home storage, though they might not be the same kind. I would expect as better batteries come online, they will be used in EVs first and other types cheaper with longer lifespans should predominate in the energy storage market.


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I understand GM is talking with these guys about filling in the small economy car market in North America and Xi wants China to sell cars in America and will be talking to Joe about a bunch of things soon. China wants to use the transition to EVs to break into the global car market. If something like this can be sold in America and Canada and is eligible for a rebate, it would be the cheapest car on the road. Make it charge from 120 volts at home and they could have a real winner, people need cars they can afford, most don't need to drag a few tons around with all the bells and whistles eating up kilowatts with an expensive SUV or half ton, most car makers already cater to the high-end market.

When the factories going up now all over the place are pumping out batteries in 5 years, I would expect the price of EVs to fall along with the cost and weight of batteries.


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America appears to be failing in the small car market a second time, this time with the transition to EVs. They were appealing to well off early adopters with bigger luxury brands seeking to replace their ICE lineup with EVs. Cheaper batteries will mean cheaper EVs of all kinds, but small EVs cars can be made cheaper than ICE vehicles and don't have nearly the part count or assembly costs. Like Japan decades ago China sees a chance to break into the global auto market in a big way during the transition to EVs. They should be able to sell a subcompact in America for less than $20K, probably a lot less before government rebates.

The auto fleet in America is aging as more people can't afford a new car and economical EVs should be in demand, cars that are cheap and easy to recharge at home without rewiring your house and have a typical efficiency of around 10km/kWh. The LFP batteries these things will use are cheap and long lived, but not very energy dense, more energy dense batteries will lead to better EVs and lower costs as less material are required for the battery.