Common Defoliation Claim... HOW is it true?

BAAWSE

BAAWSE

Member
I've tried to see if defoliation is number 1] actually a viable method to increase bud 2] if it is, is it something for me to do, but what I have consistently found is people claiming things to be facts without any proof. And, there is shockingly little scientific evidence supporting either side considering that marijuana is the most consumed drug on the planet. And I mean something from a university study type information.

One of the most common things i hear is: by taking off the fan leaves or the leaves on the bottom of the plant, you'll get bigger bud at the top of the plant because the plant won't waste energy on making bottom buds.
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I can see why people would think something like that, but it's not supported by anything scientific. they just say it because they think that's how a plant should grow. now, this is not to say that it is not true, but we have nothing to say it is true, and since we are physically ripping things off the plant should we do this, it would be important to have that information.

There is nothing to suggest that removing bottom leaves necessarily means that there is somehow "extra energy" that normally would go to bottom bud production but is now aimlessly surging around in the plant that will default into the top buds. that's almost like saying you can grow bigger buds by just dumping more water into your soil because now your plant has this extra water that normally would be in a lake but now for some unexplained reason your plant will decide to use this extra water and make a bigger bud.

and the more troubling logic behind this claim is this: if by pulling off bottom leaves makes a bigger top bud because that "energy" will get redistributed to the rest of the plant, why don't we remove everything except the main cola and get a mega cola?
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so is there anything scientific to back this claim up?
 
curious2garden

curious2garden

Well-Known Mod
Staff member
I don't know where you live but in the US, where I live, Cannabis is a Schedule 1 substance that is illegal to have for any reason. Although some universities have gotten special dispensation to do some health studies I am not aware of grow studies because the US sort of wants to discourage that. Hence why scientific opinion on growth is a bit limited.

Might this help you?
http://mjgrowers.com/book_lets_research.htm

Also if you google you'll find that many of the dispensaries are trying to fill this niche. I'm not sure how impartial their information is. So good university based horticulture studies would be of great benefit.
 
giantsfan24

giantsfan24

Well-Known Member
curious2garden said:
I don't know where you live but in the US, where I live, Cannabis is a Schedule 1 substance that is illegal to have for any reason. Although some universities have gotten special dispensation to do some health studies I am not aware of grow studies because the US sort of wants to discourage that. Hence why scientific opinion on growth is a bit limited.

Might this help you?
http://mjgrowers.com/book_lets_research.htm

Also if you google you'll find that many of the dispensaries are trying to fill this niche. I'm not sure how impartial their information is. So good university based horticulture studies would be of great benefit.
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This was going to be my point as well. With Washington and Colorado blazing the legalization trail, perhaps this will change in the near term.

Additionally we're not dealing with the same sample set as most other agricultural studies. Growing indoor means artificial light and it makes sense to me, while I have no scientific evidence to back this up, that this could potentially change how the plant reacts to being defoliated.

Also, what you're describing as "defoliation" I have seen as "lollipopping", removing the bottom leaves, which I've never done however I have defoliated with success. That is to say I've taken off most every fan leaf not attached to a bud site on all three of my plants night before last and as well, on my last grow. From top to bottom, all the large fan leaves are removed. This isn't a wholesale stripping without a plan however and there is a technique I follow that has worked for me.

There are reasons why I do this: 1) my grow space is limited vertically so it helps me to manage, with LST, the height of my plants 2) my humidity runs a little higher than I'd like in flower which leaves the potential for bud mold and/or PM. Stripping the leaves helps to manage that. 3) getting rid of the fan leaves allows more of the artificial light, which is nothing like sun light, penetrate further down the plant thus aiding the production of larger flowers lower in the plant. I have increased my yields as a result and I think I can improve on that with the same space constraints that I'm operating under with more experience.

Since adopting defoliation, I have doubled my yield in the same space. Is that all attributed to defoliating? Partly yes and partly no I'm assuming. I've also become better at knowing my space and how the strains I favor react.

A lot of what is written on the internet is bs about growing cannabis. Through experience you learn the truth for your situation and you pay less and less attention to what others say and just go off of your experience. What applies to one grower may not apply to others due to the variables involved.

I've grown 5 different strains of Indica dominant plants and they have all reacted beautifully to defoliation. My environment is very dialed in and my plants grow vigorously. I do notice a slowing of vertical growth for about 3 to 5 days or so after defoliating but I don't see signs of "stress" per se that you'd see if you didn't water or over watered your plants over a given period.

I've read that Sativa dominant strains don't react as well but don't know this empirically but just from what I've researched on the topic.

I don't believe that the "fan leaves are solar panels that provide energy the plants need" argument has a shred of credence but that's just my opinion from my experience. If one hasn't actually tried it then speaking about it from what others have said isn't valid in my opinion. Experience is the best teacher.

As far as proving it, try it for yourself on one plant. That will be all the proof you need. My advice would be however that you know your grow space and strains have it dialed in with light, medium, temperature, nutes; the best variables possible. Make sure your plants are healthy enough to begin with. Have a plan. There is an article on the internet from a guy by the name of "keef trees" who says he has 30 years of experience with this and the tutorial is pretty good but there are others as well.

Good luck :-)
 
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pmumbry

Active Member
To prove to yourself that defoliation hurts the overall plant, on your next grow take half your plants and pull off all the fan leaves at flower time. Then observe the bud growth and overall weight of the finished product of the defoliated vs those with fan leaves intact and post your results here. I believe that removing fan leaves will decrease overall bud weight as well as slow the bud growth. Leaves are like little engines that produce your plants energy, remove enough of those engines and growth will slow to a crawl.
 
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richinweed

Active Member
I pull very few fan leaves,only the ones that are directly impeding light penetration and bud production..very very few...anyone that says i dont believe they are the solar pannels has a very limited knowledge of plant physiology ,and to a horticulturalist sounds ...well, like an idiot.... and really doesnt get the science of it (basics) and is"far" from bieng any sort of master grower to say the least....keep the fan leaves, its a scientific fact and a given in any horticultural rhealm that this is correct, Ed Rosenthal has a whole chapter dedicated to this if u dont mind reading...( he bieng the worlds leading scientific reasercher in the field of cannabis production......anyway, google it!!!! and dont listen to ppl that talk just to hear themselves....
 
Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
justanotherbozo said:
...if it were that simple then why is it that pruning promotes new growth? ...when we come to believe in absolutes we cheat ourselves from learning new things.

bozo
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because wrong is still wrong even with an open mind...just cause you do not want to accept truth does not make it not true
 
giantsfan24

giantsfan24

Well-Known Member
justanotherbozo said:
...if it were that simple then why is it that pruning promotes new growth? ...when we come to believe in absolutes we cheat ourselves from learning new things.

bozo
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That has always been the case in my lifetime. If you haven't tried it you don't have a leg to stand on. I've read university studies that state that the new leaves are the ones that do the most to produce what the plant needs as far as "energy" is concerned in other than cannabis plants.

Is it just possible that cannabis is different that other plants? Perhaps it reacts differently than other plants?? There isn't any research to prove that it's not true is there? If so, specific to cannabis, why hasn't it been available to research in the hours I've spent looking up info on this topic?? All I find is people who haven't done it who say it doesn't work and you're wrong and those who have done it and say it works and you're right. If you don't think it works, produce your own evidence that it doesn't work. I've shared my results.

I've done it, I've doubled my yield, end of my story :-) Never claimed to be a master grower and certainly not an idiot...just know what works for me in my environment and that's really it. I've done it both ways. I've left leaves on and I've defoliated. I speak from my experience and don't claim that it's the answer for everyone just works for me. Geez, I hope that is ok with everyone. :roll: If that threatens you...maybe some counseling is appropriate??

This argument really reminds me of the bi partisan bickering that goes on in our government. Weird and out of place here in my humble opinion.

Namaste
 
Moon Goblin

Moon Goblin

Active Member
Kite High said:
Very simple botanical law...less leaves less production...period....end of story
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-If a leaf is unable to synthesize carbohydrates from CO2 and water because it isn't receiving any PAR (photosynthetically active radiation), what does it contribute to the plant and it's productivity?

-Does the plant allocate any energy or resources to maintaining a leaf-- even when it (the leaf) is not contributing any "fuel" for the plant?

-What purpose could a leaf fulfill, if it can no longer photosynthesize?

- When does the plant spend more energy to support a leaf than the energy that leaf contributes to supporting the plant?
 
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richinweed

Active Member
I love it when some noob with a 4x4 growspace argues technque...things like cerventice is wrong and yada yada...HELLO...GOERGE HAS SEVERAL GROW HOUSES AS WELL AS HUGE OUTDOOR GROWS AND IS VERY SUCCESFULL!.....and noob with his moms basmnt has the nerve to argue FACTS.......all that comes to mind is arrogence and self importance...from fools and tools...get real before u give noob advice...all the while guestioning the techniques of accomplished MASTER growers......pssst/ slap!
 
past times

past times

Well-Known Member
I'm with bozo on this one. There is not exactly one way to do things. And through experimentation/trial and error, we are able to find better ways to do things....Maybe not always better, but at least another way. That is how advancements are made in everything....not just cannabis

For instance, if i had 4k in wattage/ ac/ CO2 etc, i might not prune as much as it is going to have lots of light penetration, and make the growing a little easier. Or even better, the sun and outdoors. The more confined the space, the more we must manipulate things to increase results.


Thats why you see topping/LST/FIMMIng/Exfolitation. It is a way to manipulate the growth into the most optimum light. I started with a 150 hps, went to 250, went to 400, then finally now a 600. I have done every method i mentioned about. Were any more successful? Yes, but the proof is very difficult to get. To prove something, you need a whole bunch of constants, and then 1 variable....it is possible but time consuming and would require a lot of work/time/space with cloning.

I think air movement is a crucial point that has not been mentioned yet. If you have too many leaves in tight quarters, you start to have issues. Humidity, heat, air quality. By removing a few fan leaves at the bottom, you open up some air movement for soil and canopy.

When i leave all the buds on, i find myself making hash out of the bottom third...which is not a bad deal either
 
giantsfan24

giantsfan24

Well-Known Member
past times said:
I think air movement is a crucial point that has not been mentioned yet. If you have too many leaves in tight quarters, you start to have issues. Humidity, heat, air quality. By removing a few fan leaves at the bottom, you open up some air movement for soil and canopy.
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That's another reason why I do it. I helps me to maintain my environment as ideally as possible.

If I remember correctly, I'd have to blow the dust off of my Cervantes book to know, he doesn't even address hempy or lollipopping at least in my version of the book. I'm just saying what works for me that's all. You're welcome to your opinion and I respect that.

Namaste
 
zack66

zack66

Well-Known Member
Probably half the folks on here trim and the others don't. I have trimmed in the past and my last run I left all the leaves on. Harvest increased by 20% and the buds were much denser and danker. To each his own I guess. I know i won't be trimming off any leaves again unless dead or dying ones. Good luck!
 
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