Conservative Does No Mean Christian.

RickWhite · Feb 21, 2010

It seems that most of the threads here contain at least a few statements that suggest that all Conservative thought comes from religious beliefs. While some on the Right do derive moral guidance from their faith, it is unfair to suggest that all or even most do. And, it is unfair to suggest that even those that do are necessarily incapable of being objective and logical.

Dennis Prager is a deeply religious Jew who's analysis of all of life's great issues is second to none. Likewise, there are numerous academic works created by theologians. Gregor Mendel, the father of genetics was in fact a monk.

The stereotype of the mindless religious zealot is purely ad-hominem in most cases (granted there are some). But, I do believe that never the less, many if not most on the Left believe it to be true in all cases. At least this is what they indicate.

I suggest that the reason for this belief is simple. People often make the mistake of assuming that there is one approach to logic and reason and that all people share it.

This is evidenced by the way many people view the middle East. They reason thusly:

"The main reason I and everyone else gets angry is because someone does something unjust. The people in the middle East are angry - therefore, someone must have done something unjust to them."

This completely ignores the possibility that maybe people in the ME get angry for different reasons. It is assumed that all people everywhere use the same line of reasoning. This is false.

People on the Left, see issue in terms of dogma. A survey of pretty much any place where Liberal views are expressed demonstrates this. And because they see issues in terms of dogma, they assume that everyone else does too.

That is why nearly every time there is a disagreement between a Liberal and a Conservative, the Liberal almost instinctively attacks the Conservative position as religious dogma.

Note that this happens even when the Conservative says nothing with regard to the Bible or to religion. In fact, as someone who also posts on Conservative websites, I can assure you that the number of people who quote the Bible during discussion of political issues is minuscule and even when they do, this is objected to by other Conservatives.

stumps · Feb 21, 2010

It does seem the conservatives preach to the religion groups for votes. I'm a bit conservative and have no use for religion in any way.

jeffchr · Feb 21, 2010

not all conservatives are religious fundamentalists, but most religious zealots are conservatives. that segment of the right certainly views issues in terms of dogma. if liberals were more prone to endorse dogma, perhaps they could pass some legislation.

liberals aren't dogmatic enough.

ViRedd · Feb 21, 2010

jeffchr said:
not all conservatives are religious fundamentalists, but most religious zealots are conservatives. that segment of the right certainly views issues in terms of dogma. if liberals were more prone to endorse dogma, perhaps they could pass some legislation.

liberals aren't dogmatic enough.

Well, I'd say that if someone is a devout Christian or a Jew, they would believe in the Ten Commandments. IMHO, the Ten Commandments are a pretty good basis, or outline, from which to run one's life ... or a government for that matter.

As for me, I just want to see my grandchildren live in a country where totalitarianism takes a back seat to liberty.

jeffchr · Feb 21, 2010

ViRedd said:
Well, I'd say that if someone is a devout Christian or a Jew, they would believe in the Ten Commandments. IMHO, the Ten Commandments are a pretty good basis, or outline, from which to run one's life ... or a government for that matter.

As for me, I just want to see my grandchildren live in a country where totalitarianism takes a back seat to liberty.

i agree that the ten commandments are good fundamentals. but i don't think you can attribute that belief to anyone just based on their own declaration of faith. many of them are hypocrites. if they embraced their faith they would actually sound more like liberals.

ViRedd · Feb 21, 2010

jeffchr said:
i agree that the ten commandments are good fundamentals. but i don't think you can attribute that belief to anyone just based on their own declaration of faith. many of them are hypocrites. if they embraced their faith they would actually sound more like liberals.

This reminds me of a woman I met at a party once. She had just moved back to California from Utah. She kept saying that she left Utah because she hated all of the Mormon hypocrites who kept pestering her to come to those hypocritical "meetings." She said that they even tried to ply her with kind deeds, like bringing her little baked gifts and such. I mean, the woman would not shut up about how hypocritical all of the Mormons were. Finally, I had enough and asked her if she had any faith in God at all and she said "no." So, I said to her: "Well, gee, if the only thing standing between you and God were those hypocrites, it seems to me that those hypocrites are a little closer to God than you are."

She thought for a moment and meekly said: "Thanks ... I needed that." :lol:

PadawanBater · Feb 21, 2010

RickWhite said:
It seems that most of the threads here contain at least a few statements that suggest that all Conservative thought comes from religious beliefs. While some on the Right do derive moral guidance from their faith, it is unfair to suggest that all or even most do. And, it is unfair to suggest that even those that do are necessarily incapable of being objective and logical.

Dennis Prager is a deeply religious Jew who's analysis of all of life's great issues is second to none. Likewise, there are numerous academic works created by theologians. Gregor Mendel, the father of genetics was in fact a monk.

The stereotype of the mindless religious zealot is purely ad-hominem in most cases (granted there are some). But, I do believe that never the less, many if not most on the Left believe it to be true in all cases. At least this is what they indicate.

I suggest that the reason for this belief is simple. People often make the mistake of assuming that there is one approach to logic and reason and that all people share it.

This is evidenced by the way many people view the middle East. They reason thusly:

"The main reason I and everyone else gets angry is because someone does something unjust. The people in the middle East are angry - therefore, someone must have done something unjust to them."

This completely ignores the possibility that maybe people in the ME get angry for different reasons. It is assumed that all people everywhere use the same line of reasoning. This is false.

People on the Left, see issue in terms of dogma. A survey of pretty much any place where Liberal views are expressed demonstrates this. And because they see issues in terms of dogma, they assume that everyone else does too.

That is why nearly every time there is a disagreement between a Liberal and a Conservative, the Liberal almost instinctively attacks the Conservative position as religious dogma.

Note that this happens even when the Conservative says nothing with regard to the Bible or to religion. In fact, as someone who also posts on Conservative websites, I can assure you that the number of people who quote the Bible during discussion of political issues is minuscule and even when they do, this is objected to by other Conservatives.

Attribute that to the GOP. They're the ones who hijacked organized religion. Now you're saying we can't blame them for it?

ViRedd said:
IMHO, the Ten Commandments are a pretty good basis, or outline, from which to run one's life ... or a government for that matter.

I disagree wholeheartedly with that. I could come up with 10 much better commandments, and mine would be more like suggestions/commitments, etc...

RickWhite · Feb 22, 2010

Those with deep religious beliefs are almost always Conservative - it would be hard not to be. But, one can easily be Conservative without being religious - in fact most are. By religious I mean deeply religious not just belief in God. Interestingly, most "reformed" (secular leaning) Jews are Liberal while most conservative and orthodox are Conservative.

The point however, is that myself and many other non-religious people hold Conservative views based on our analysis of life and not on religious dogma. And most of the time, we do a good job of explaining the reasons for our views. And yet, Liberals nearly always dismiss even the most poignant, concise and well argued points as mere dogma.

I believe this is because they can not argue an issue on its merit. They see everything in terms of talking points and dogma. This is the only way they know how to approach an issue and the only way they know how to argue an issue. Therefore, they must reduce the Conservative argument to dogma as well.

Dogma, for the Liberal is familiar territory, true analysis is not. When the discussion involves true analysis, the Liberal is lost. When it is a matter of dogma, they have the moral high ground. After all, their dogma looks great on the surface. Liberals are for peace, equality, justice for all, health care for all, and a bottle of Dom on every table. It is when we look at the nuts and bolts of these ideals that we see their failings.

I can only imagine this is why Liberals nearly always steer the conversation toward dogma. It is much easier to call someone mean spirited, a racist, sexist, bigot, homophobe and or religious nut job than it is to debate the facts - especially, when your facts have a tendency to come up short.

PadawanBater · Feb 22, 2010

RickWhite said:
Those with deep religious beliefs are almost always Conservative - it would be hard not to be. But, one can easily be Conservative without being religious - in fact most are. By religious I mean deeply religious not just belief in God. Interestingly, most "reformed" (secular leaning) Jews are Liberal while most conservative and orthodox are Conservative.

The point however, is that myself and many other non-religious people hold Conservative views based on our analysis of life and not on religious dogma. And most of the time, we do a good job of explaining the reasons for our views. And yet, Liberals nearly always dismiss even the most poignant, concise and well argued points as mere dogma.

I believe this is because they can not argue an issue on its merit. They see everything in terms of talking points and dogma. This is the only way they know how to approach an issue and the only way they know how to argue an issue. Therefore, they must reduce the Conservative argument to dogma as well.

Dogma, for the Liberal is familiar territory, true analysis is not. When the discussion involves true analysis, the Liberal is lost. When it is a matter of dogma, they have the moral high ground. After all, their dogma looks great on the surface. Liberals are for peace, equality, justice for all, health care for all, and a bottle of Dom on every table. It is when we look at the nuts and bolts of these ideals that we see their failings.

I can only imagine this is why Liberals nearly always steer the conversation toward dogma. It is much easier to call someone mean spirited, a racist, sexist, bigot, homophobe and or religious nut job than it is to debate the facts - especially, when your facts have a tendency to come up short.

...No not really. It's actually because most of the crazy stuff self proclaimed "conservatives" propose comes right out of the bible.

-hating homosexuality, which leads to discrimination and bigotry. Religion is the leading cause of animosity towards the gay and lesbian community, there's no way you can argue that.

I could list dozens of examples religion is directly responsible for the "conservative" mindset. It's the most important thing in a lot of peoples lives so of course it would influence the way they act/vote.

Give me specific examples of opinions you hold that didn't stem from a religious viewpoint, and I'll debate that. What are your "non-religious" reasons for hating gay people? (oh because it's your job to protect the greater society, and there's no evidence that supports children development is hindered at all under gay couples) - see that view isn't substantiated with any evidence, it's only an opinion because you don't have any proof to support it or support the contrary.

What are your non-religious views for not allowing gay marriage?

What are your non-religious views for stem cells?

What are your non-religious views for abortion?

...sex changes?

...drug control?

undertheice · Feb 22, 2010

though christian fundamentalists may be attracted to the basic tenets of conservatism, claiming that a religious nature is a prerequisite to being conservative is an attitude born out of ignorance of what conservatism is and an excessive concentration on individual issues. the conservative stance on almost all issues is based on the simple belief that government has no right to control the individual except where the rights of two or more individuals conflict and that it is the individual who must take responsibility for his own life. the individual is at the center of conservative ideology and such fundamentalist christian concepts as original sin and the idea of an individual relationship with the creator mesh perfectly with the philosophy of personal responsibility.

the religious right, being unabashedly vocal, has certainly co-opted quite a bit of the power of the conservative movement and politicians have played to that strident voice, but their views are not necessarily those of the majority of conservatives. it should also be remembered that this country is a predominantly christian one and that the majority of its citizens on both sides of the political spectrum are still under the sway of that religion's biases. this nation is rife with homophobes, only time can erase the stigma that has been attached to gays for centuries and to expect that to change overnight is incredibly naive. even here in california, definitely a blue state, prop 8 was passed overwhelmingly, even as liberal democrats were swept into office. abortion is another issue that finds opponents on both sides of the aisle. there are plenty of folks who believe that an unborn child should have the same right to life as those of us that exist outside of the womb, that see a fetus as a human being with all of the potential of any of us and not just a parasite feeding off of its host. there are those who see that fetus as a responsibility willingly taken on by its parents and that aborting it for the sake of convenience is merely another instance of an individual avoiding their responsibility. for most religious reasons to oppose these sorts of social changes, you can find an equal number of moral and/or cultural reasons for opposition. after all, our national ethos is based on a judeo-christian outlook and our morality has been shaped for centuries by those concepts.

PadawanBater · Feb 22, 2010

undertheice said:
though christian fundamentalists may be attracted to the basic tenets of conservatism, claiming that a religious nature is a prerequisite to being conservative is an attitude born out of ignorance of what conservatism is and an excessive concentration on individual issues.

That's not the claim I made. I'm saying there are more "conservatives" who claim to be religious than any other group with a political ideology, ie. "liberals". Also, coincidentally, all the religious nuts claim to be "conservative". Pat Robertson, you know, the guy who just claimed the earthquake in Haiti was because they made a deal with the devil... yeah, that guy's been GOP all his life, he even ran on the Republican ticket in 88. How bout any of the people on Fox? That entire network claims to be "conservative" - you making the claim that they're not religious?

The fact is, there is a very clear correlation between being religious and holding "conservative" values. The GOP has always used the "conservative values" "we're better for you than those Godless Democrats with no morals" platform.

the conservative stance on almost all issues is based on the simple belief that government has no right to control the individual except where the rights of two or more individuals conflict and that it is the individual who must take responsibility for his own life.

Exactly, and in that I hold some conservative stances, don't tell Rick though...

the individual is at the center of conservative ideology and such fundamentalist christian concepts as original sin and the idea of an individual relationship with the creator mesh perfectly with the philosophy of personal responsibility.

OK, but that's not the only place one could derive a philosophy of personal responsibility, right?

the religious right, being unabashedly vocal, has certainly co-opted quite a bit of the power of the conservative movement and politicians have played to that strident voice, but their views are not necessarily those of the majority of conservatives.

Is it not then their responsibility to stand up and demand accurate representation? Why would they be content being portrayed by the politicians as something they're not or something they don't believe in? No other group stands for this, why does the "conservative" base, if that's what's happening?

it should also be remembered that this country is a predominantly christian one and that the majority of its citizens on both sides of the political spectrum are still under the sway of that religion's biases. this nation is rife with homophobes, only time can erase the stigma that has been attached to gays for centuries and to expect that to change overnight is incredibly naive.

Why's the stigma there? Why does "homophobia" exist?

even here in california, definitely a blue state, prop 8 was passed overwhelmingly, even as liberal democrats were swept into office.

Dude, the whole point of this issue is that religion is the cause for these things. It was the religious sect of the "conservative" crowd in California that funded and supported prop 8. That is a fact.

abortion is another issue that finds opponents on both sides of the aisle. there are plenty of folks who believe that an unborn child should have the same right to life as those of us that exist outside of the womb, that see a fetus as a human being with all of the potential of any of us and not just a parasite feeding off of its host. there are those who see that fetus as a responsibility willingly taken on by its parents and that aborting it for the sake of convenience is merely another instance of an individual avoiding their responsibility.

Wow, this reaction is ripe with appeals to emotion. You didn't even touch on the medical aspect of the procedure at all.

Do you hold this stance? You're not religious, but oppose abortion? I have yet to find someone who holds that position.

for most religious reasons to oppose these sorts of social changes, you can find an equal number of moral and/or cultural reasons for opposition.

I disagree with that. Start listing some logical reasons in opposition to these issues that don't stem from a religious argument. I'm really interested.

after all, our national ethos is based on a judeo-christian outlook and our morality has been shaped for centuries by those concepts.

Doesn't make us a "Christian Nation".

jeffchr · Feb 22, 2010

undertheice said:
though christian fundamentalists may be attracted to the basic tenets of conservatism, claiming that a religious nature is a prerequisite to being conservative is an attitude born out of ignorance of what conservatism is and an excessive concentration on individual issues. the conservative stance on almost all issues is based on the simple belief that government has no right to control the individual except where the rights of two or more individuals conflict and that it is the individual who must take responsibility for his own life. the individual is at the center of conservative ideology and such fundamentalist christian concepts as original sin and the idea of an individual relationship with the creator mesh perfectly with the philosophy of personal responsibility.

the religious right, being unabashedly vocal, has certainly co-opted quite a bit of the power of the conservative movement and politicians have played to that strident voice, but their views are not necessarily those of the majority of conservatives. it should also be remembered that this country is a predominantly christian one and that the majority of its citizens on both sides of the political spectrum are still under the sway of that religion's biases. this nation is rife with homophobes, only time can erase the stigma that has been attached to gays for centuries and to expect that to change overnight is incredibly naive. even here in california, definitely a blue state, prop 8 was passed overwhelmingly, even as liberal democrats were swept into office. abortion is another issue that finds opponents on both sides of the aisle. there are plenty of folks who believe that an unborn child should have the same right to life as those of us that exist outside of the womb, that see a fetus as a human being with all of the potential of any of us and not just a parasite feeding off of its host. there are those who see that fetus as a responsibility willingly taken on by its parents and that aborting it for the sake of convenience is merely another instance of an individual avoiding their responsibility. for most religious reasons to oppose these sorts of social changes, you can find an equal number of moral and/or cultural reasons for opposition. after all, our national ethos is based on a judeo-christian outlook and our morality has been shaped for centuries by those concepts.

well there ya go! you just claimed the conservative movement embraces the religious right (for votes, of course), but the religious doctrine has nothing to do with the impetus of the conservative party. yet they are against abortion, which is clearly a religious issue. so which is it? are you against big government and for civil liberties, or are you in favor of our mores being dictated by the government?

robert 14617 · Feb 22, 2010

i conceder myself Conservative and not bound by religion

jeffchr · Feb 22, 2010

RickWhite said:
Those with deep religious beliefs are almost always Conservative - it would be hard not to be. But, one can easily be Conservative without being religious - in fact most are. By religious I mean deeply religious not just belief in God. Interestingly, most "reformed" (secular leaning) Jews are Liberal while most conservative and orthodox are Conservative.

The point however, is that myself and many other non-religious people hold Conservative views based on our analysis of life and not on religious dogma. And most of the time, we do a good job of explaining the reasons for our views. And yet, Liberals nearly always dismiss even the most poignant, concise and well argued points as mere dogma.

I believe this is because they can not argue an issue on its merit. They see everything in terms of talking points and dogma. This is the only way they know how to approach an issue and the only way they know how to argue an issue. Therefore, they must reduce the Conservative argument to dogma as well.

Dogma, for the Liberal is familiar territory, true analysis is not. When the discussion involves true analysis, the Liberal is lost. When it is a matter of dogma, they have the moral high ground. After all, their dogma looks great on the surface. Liberals are for peace, equality, justice for all, health care for all, and a bottle of Dom on every table. It is when we look at the nuts and bolts of these ideals that we see their failings.

I can only imagine this is why Liberals nearly always steer the conversation toward dogma. It is much easier to call someone mean spirited, a racist, sexist, bigot, homophobe and or religious nut job than it is to debate the facts - especially, when your facts have a tendency to come up short.

no, you've got that backward. it's the liberals who hold anlalytical viewpoints, and the conservatives who embrace dogma. IMO. Just my opinion.

The opposing opinion is your's.

RickWhite · Feb 22, 2010

PadawanBater said:
...No not really. It's actually because most of the crazy stuff self proclaimed "conservatives" propose comes right out of the bible.

-hating homosexuality, which leads to discrimination and bigotry. Religion is the leading cause of animosity towards the gay and lesbian community, there's no way you can argue that.

I could list dozens of examples religion is directly responsible for the "conservative" mindset. It's the most important thing in a lot of peoples lives so of course it would influence the way they act/vote.

Give me specific examples of opinions you hold that didn't stem from a religious viewpoint, and I'll debate that. What are your "non-religious" reasons for hating gay people? (oh because it's your job to protect the greater society, and there's no evidence that supports children development is hindered at all under gay couples) - see that view isn't substantiated with any evidence, it's only an opinion because you don't have any proof to support it or support the contrary.

What are your non-religious views for not allowing gay marriage?

What are your non-religious views for stem cells?

What are your non-religious views for abortion?

...sex changes?

...drug control?

And here folks we have a perfect example. Notice that this person is wholly unable to even fathom how a person can hold Conservative views that are not rooted in religion. He can not even imagine that there could possibly be non-religious views regarding the social issues above. The only explanation for this is that he sees life only through dogma and finds it inconceivable that others may not. The above statement, and his next post prove this quite clearly IMO.

Most Conservatives I know are non-religious. Instead of buying into a particular dogma, they actually analyze issues - that is where the non-religious views come from.

They look at all the issues mentioned above and they consider all possible ramifications to society should we chose a given policy. They look not only at the tangible effects of the policies, but also the message they will send and how this will affect our attitudes, our views on life and ultimately how we behave as a culture and society.

I could easily spend hours discussing the nuance of all of those subjects. They involve differing philosophical views, a host of ethical considerations concerning the acts themselves and their potential impact on society. And one might be surprised to learn that my views on these issues are not as far Right as one might think.

The person above, on the other hand, would never do likewise. He knows where his party stands and what the correct position is and he needs know nothing more.

I understand the way he thinks better than he does. He can not even fathom my thought process, as he has clearly demonstrated.

robert 14617 · Feb 22, 2010

angry , yelling loud , and angry

PadawanBater · Feb 22, 2010

RickWhite said:
And here folks we have a perfect example. Notice that this person is wholly unable to even fathom how a person can hold Conservative views that are not rooted in religion. He can not even imagine that there could possibly be non-religious views regarding the social issues above. The only explanation for this is that he sees life only through dogma and finds it inconceivable that others may not. The above statement, and his next post prove this quite clearly IMO.

Most Conservatives I know are non-religious. Instead of buying into a particular dogma, they actually analyze issues - that is where the non-religious views come from.

They look at all the issues mentioned above and they consider all possible ramifications to society should we chose a given policy. They look not only at the tangible effects of the policies, but also the message they will send and how this will effect our attitudes, our views on life and ultimately how we behave as a culture and society.

I could easily spend hours discussing the nuance of all of those subjects. They involve differing philosophical views, a host of ethical considerations concerning the acts themselves and their potential impact on society. And one might be surprised to learn that my views on these issues are not as far Right as one might think.

The person above, on the other hand, would never do likewise. He knows where his party stands and what the correct position is and he needs know nothing more.

I understand the way he thinks better than he does. He can not even fathom my thought process, as he has clearly demonstrated.

Dude, I called you out and asked you to provide some specific examples.

Are you saying you don't have any examples and are just spitting another pointless, invalid opinion... again?

...that's what I thought.

shnkrmn · Feb 22, 2010

Hey, bro, I think you just got 'Alinskied'. LMFAO. Everybody has access to the same box of tactics.

PadawanBater said:
Dude, I called you out and asked you to provide some specific examples.

Are you saying you don't have any examples and are just spitting another pointless, invalid opinion... again?

...that's what I thought.

RickWhite · Feb 22, 2010

PadawanBater said:
Dude, I called you out and asked you to provide some specific examples.

Are you saying you don't have any examples and are just spitting another pointless, invalid opinion... again?

...that's what I thought.

The fact that you would even need specific examples proves my point.

Have you not read dozens of my posts? Examples of how I approach these issues are all over this forum.

If you want to talk examples, give one example of me, or anyone else, quoting the Bible. You love to accuse people of relying on religious dogma, give ONE example.

As I have stated and you are well aware, my views on gay marriage have nothing to do with religion. They have to do with my understanding of human sexuality, human behavior and the social, cultural and anthropological significance of the nuclear family.

Knowing you like I do, I am sure you are asking for examples because you intend on using these as straw men so you can sidetrack the conversation.

Once again, if you really need examples, you are proving my point for me.

undertheice · Feb 22, 2010

PadawanBater said:
I'm saying there are more "conservatives" who claim to be religious than any other group with a political ideology, ie. "liberals".

The fact is, there is a very clear correlation between being religious and holding "conservative" values. The GOP has always used the "conservative values" "we're better for you than those Godless Democrats with no morals" platform.

as i said before, it's no wonder conservatism attracts the christian fundamentalist. that doesn't define the entire movement, it merely means that those deluded souls will gravitate to an ideology that more closely resembles a part of their dogma. as is usually the case, you confuse the antics of professional politicians stumping for votes and the lunacy of talking heads performing for an audience with the people. you seem to have forgotten just what a conservative country this is, even our liberalism is more conservative than most.

it's easy to listen to pat robertson (actually it's incredibly difficult for any thinking person to listen to that fool) and attempt to define conservatism through his eyes, but that is merely a vocal minority. it's easy to listen to the crystal gazing loons or the thieving dolts like maxine waters who prattle on about the joys of the benevolent and all powerful state and say that that is liberalism, but that's not quite right either. they are both just roads to an as yet undefined future and the majority of the people are sitting in the middle, just leaning in one direction or the other. lately the leaders of the right have been using the fear inherent in religion, the fear of change, to influence voters, just as the leaders of the left have been using our fear of the wealthy and powerful to browbeat their flock. it isn't the religion or the hatred they are selling, it is the fear. meanwhile, the vast majority who sit in the middle are merely wavering between the promises of comfortable slavery and the hard work of liberty.

i wonder, if you were to take an honest poll of the people, just how big a difference there would be between the percentage of christians at either end of the political spectrum. this is, after all, a predominantly christian nation and i doubt you would really find that much of a difference. of course, an honest poll is a bit of an oxymoron these days.

Is it not then their responsibility to stand up and demand accurate representation? Why would they be content being portrayed by the politicians as something they're not or something they don't believe in? No other group stands for this, why does the "conservative" base, if that's what's happening?

what choice does a conservative really have? conservatism, first and foremost, admits the pain of liberty and the necessity of that pain. while liberal politicians are spouting the joys of the comfortable life they can give to the people if they are only willing to give up a little more of their freedom, promises that never quite come true, conservatives have only the pride of accomplishment and the rewards of deciding your own destiny to offer. that doesn't sound quite so appealing as a 60" big screen to the greedy mob. politics makes strange bedfellows and numbers are needed if this rigged game is to be turned in favor of liberty and the nation described by this country's founders. as we descend further and further toward mob rule, the individual must gather any allies available if he is to survive.

Why's the stigma there? Why does "homophobia" exist?

do you really want me to go into a detailed analysis of the human psyche? does it need to be said that somewhere in the back of our animal minds almost all heterosexual people see homosexuality as against the laws of nature and that it is only empathy and tolerance that allows us to go against those instincts and say that being gay is perfectly all right? these are cultural taboos that have been centuries in the making and it should come as no surprise that many people are unwilling or incapable of simply dismissing them. the incessant prattling of generations of christian preachers may have reinforced those taboos, but they existed long before the idea of christ was even thought up.

It was the religious sect of the "conservative" crowd in California that funded and supported prop 8.

wherever it may have originated, prop 8 would have died if the same california voters who overwhelmingly cast their ballots in support of other liberal causes hadn't wanted it to succeed. blaming conservatives for having brought up the subject in the first place is at best disingenuous. it may have been ignorance that led to a victory for prop 8, but it certainly can't be laid at the feet of conservatives alone.

You're not religious, but oppose abortion? I have yet to find someone who holds that position.

i've never been a man of faith. even as a child i held an agnostic view and in later life i decided that completely denying the existence of that noxious christian deity was better than despising its possibility (i just couldn't stand the thought of wasting my time with such hatred), so i now consider myself an atheist. my opposition to abortion is not based on the sanctity of human life or the concept of sin, it is a simple matter of individual responsibility and the fact that it is just plain wrong to end another human life for no other reason than your own gratification. despite all the legal maneuverings, a fetus is alive and has the same potential as you or i do. to dispose of that life merely because it is an inconvenience, denies your responsibility for your own actions. you created that life, though it may have been a matter of folly, and it is dependent upon you. that act of creation was a matter of choice and we must all bear the burden of our choices. you can throw up the victims of rape and incest or instances where the life of the mother is in jeopardy as defense of abortion and i would agree that those exceptions are valid, but those circumstances account for few of the procedures performed each year. the fact is that we have come to view abortion as a viable alternative to birth control and living a responsible life in general. such a view runs contrary to the respect for ourselves and others that we need if this species is ever to dig itself out of the muck.

now you may be able to understand why i seldom enter into discussions on abortion rights. my views on the subject are seldom popular with either side and i have made enough enemies in this life. :bigjoint:

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Well-Known Member