Convoy? ..Convoy!

I'm negan

Active Member
in response to changing facts
lol the facts didn't change. Conservatives have been saying things since the beginning of the pandemic that would get them banned from social media that are now being reported as "changing science" 3 quick examples, cloth masks don't work, covid death counts being inflated by non-covid related deaths, and covid starting in a lab.

blockades are and act of violence
Like i said we're all products of our experiences. I agree the blockades aren't right. I'm from Michigan this is affecting people i know already. But I've been in prison bro. I've seen multiple people get stabbed and "buck-fifty,d" thats when they take a razor across your face mouth to ear. They say you'll need 150 stitches. So I'm not gonna be one to call blockades an act of violence.
 

HGCC

Well-Known Member
I'm going to disagree with your very narrow characterization of libertarian. My understanding of libertarianism is quite simple. I'm mostly with the liberals on social issues like legalize drugs, gay marriage, abortion, criminal justice reform (although they lost me with defund the police). On the other hand I'm mostly with the conservatives on fiscal issues. I want low taxes and low government spending. I think the US government has a moral obligation to work with a balanced budget and stop borrowing from our future, but that's never going to happen.
I am going to agree with you, "libertarian" can mean anything from far right to far left views. It is sort of useless as a distinction. It has come to represent far right people generally. I blame Ron Paul, all the crazy far right people used to gather under his mantle as people should have the right to be racist under his view of libertarianism.

What you described seems like neoliberalism. It was the Clinton model. They were left on social issues and to the right on economic and military issues. Bill even balanced the budget, the only guy to do that in however long before and after.
 

I'm negan

Active Member
I am going to agree with you, "libertarian" can mean anything from far right to far left views. It is sort of useless as a distinction. It has come to represent far right people generally. I blame Ron Paul, all the crazy far right people used to gather under his mantle as people should have the right to be racist under his view of libertarianism.

What you described seems like neoliberalism. It was the Clinton model. They were left on social issues and to the right on economic and military issues. Bill even balanced the budget, the only guy to do that in however long before and after.
I was not aware that libertarian had such a negative connotation amongst liberals lol. I honestly got it from my poli-sci class way back in like 07. (when i was much more liberal than i am today) They gave us like a questionaire that scored us a certain way and mine came out libertarian lol....
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I'm going to disagree with your very narrow characterization of libertarian. My understanding of libertarianism is quite simple. I'm mostly with the liberals on social issues like legalize drugs, gay marriage, abortion, criminal justice reform (although they lost me with defund the police). On the other hand I'm mostly with the conservatives on fiscal issues. I want low taxes and low government spending. I think the US government has a moral obligation to work with a balanced budget and stop borrowing from our future, but that's never going to happen.
That's the funny thing about people who say they are "libertarian". You guys just define the word however you like. Maybe it the "liberty" part of the word you like. The same trick was used by fascists when they coined the term Nationalist Socialist Party or NAZI party in Germany. They weren't socialist. Not one bit. But the term fooled a lot of left leaning Germans into supporting them.

There is no liberty in the US-libertarian movement. Its more like feudalism than a freedom party. The theory hinges on made up economic theory that begins with the assumption of "free market forces" that self correct because "we said so". I directly cite the group that made this shit up:

These great thinkers developed praxeology, a deductive science of human action based on premises known with certainty to be true, and this is what we teach and advocate. Our scholarly work is founded in Misesian praxeology, and in self-conscious opposition to the mathematical modeling and hypothesis-testing that has created so much confusion in neoclassical economics.

Plenty of big and fancy words there. What they say is they reject science and math in favor of untested and unproven axioms. I'll just sum it all up as bullshit.

OK, Soooo, YOUR idea of libertarianism is economic conservatism with low taxes, low government spending, low debt and social liberalism where people make their own choices in their lives, including the bedroom and how they recreate.

We half-way agree. I'm not saying I don't benefit from the low tax rates we have in the US. But I'm pretty tired of how so-called conservatives cut taxes without doing the hard political work of concurrently cutting spending. So-called conservatives made up another baseless theory, trickle down economics. That theory, unlike libertarian ideology, was implemented and they've used that lie to justify yet more cuts in taxes while NOT cutting spending and ballooned the national debt.

So, I don't get it. Why do you continue to follow those chumps?
 
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DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
lol the facts didn't change. Conservatives have been saying things since the beginning of the pandemic that would get them banned from social media that are now being reported as "changing science" 3 quick examples, cloth masks don't work, covid death counts being inflated by non-covid related deaths, and covid starting in a lab.
You are conveniently over looking a few key facts among them is the fact that we've gone through several different variants, each more contagious than the last. Omicron is milder by chance and more contagious by natural selection, the unvaxxed lucked out.

Masks work and always have, N95 masks work better with omicron, I posted charts on the effectiveness of various mask types. NPI's (lockdowns) also worked early in the pandemic when covid was much less contagious, they saved millions of lives through most of the pandemic.

Most of the people who are dying of covid now and for awhile are unvaxxed idiots, republicans for the most part and they are dropping like flies, thousands a week and they will continue to do so for sometime to come. You just need to look at the annual excess death count for the pandemic years to see the toll. Almost a million people were killed by covid in America, many as a result of Trump's malicious incompetence and dereliction of duty. Just compare the per capita mortality rate of Canada to America to see what I mean.
 

I'm negan

Active Member
That's the funny thing about people who say they are "libertarian". You guys just define the word however you like. Maybe it the "liberty" part of the word you like. The same trick was used by fascists when they coined the term Nationalist Socialist Party or NAZI party in Germany. They weren't socialist. Not one bit. But the term fooled a lot of left leaning Germans into supporting them.

There is no liberty in the US-libertarian movement. Its more like feudalism than a freedom party. The theory hinges on made up economic theory that begins with the assumption of "free market forces" that self correct because "we said so". I cite the group that made this shit up directly:

These great thinkers developed praxeology, a deductive science of human action based on premises known with certainty to be true, and this is what we teach and advocate. Our scholarly work is founded in Misesian praxeology, and in self-conscious opposition to the mathematical modeling and hypothesis-testing that has created so much confusion in neoclassical economics.

Plenty of big and fancy words there. What they say is they reject science and math in favor of untested and unproven axioms. I'll just sum it all up as bullshit.

OK, Soooo, YOUR idea of libertarianism is economic conservatism with low taxes, low government spending, low debt and social liberalism where people make their own choices in their lives, including the bedroom and how they recreate.

We half-way agree. I'm not saying I don't benefit from the low tax rates we have in the US. But I'm pretty tired of how so-called conservatives cut taxes without doing the hard political work of concurrently cutting spending. So-called conservatives made up another baseless theory, trickle down economics. That theory, unlike libertarian ideology, was implemented and they've used that lie to justify yet more cuts in taxes while NOT cutting spending and ballooned the national debt.

So, I don't get it. Why do you continue to follow those chumps?

Well as you can see from my views theres never a good candidate for me. I don't fit within the 2 party system that we have here in the US. I'll tell you why i favor corporations over government to redistribute wealth. Government is very inefficient at spending money as evidenced by our national debt. Corporations on the other hand are very efficient at spending money, they don't waste or they don't stay around long. Its that simple for me. If our government could get the efficiency per dollar that apple or google do, i would be all for the extra spending.
 

xtsho

Well-Known Member
Well as you can see from my views theres never a good candidate for me. I don't fit within the 2 party system that we have here in the US. I'll tell you why i favor corporations over government to redistribute wealth. Government is very inefficient at spending money as evidenced by our national debt. Corporations on the other hand are very efficient at spending money, they don't waste or they don't stay around long. Its that simple for me. If our government could get the efficiency per dollar that apple or google do, i would be all for the extra spending.
You're extremely ignorant.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
But I've been in prison bro
Then don't be a sucker for those who sent you there and made it such a Hellhole. It was just suppose to get the brown folks, but it grinds up plenty of white people too. Sacrifices have to be made thought, if you are at war, I mean plenty of white people would like to have government healthcare, but ya see the brown folks might get some and better to die in agony, than let that happen!

It's called drained pool politics, when the black kids get to swim in the public pool, they drain it and close it, nobody gets to swim, they'd rather fuck themselves. It used to be called cutting off yer nose to spite yer face, same idea.
 

xtsho

Well-Known Member
i said we're all products of our experiences. I agree the blockades aren't right. I'm from Michigan this is affecting people i know already. But I've been in prison bro. I've seen multiple people get stabbed and "buck-fifty,d" thats when they take a razor across your face mouth to ear. They say you'll need 150 stitches. So I'm not gonna be one to call blockades an act of violence.
Like I said. You're extremely ignorant.
 

I'm negan

Active Member
Like I said. You're extremely ignorant.
Wow bro we can't have a conversation without resorting to personal insults. Did I insult you? I'm simply speaking from my experience. I didn't even say anyone else's view is wrong. I'm not trying to convert you. I just enjoy talking about politics.
 

I'm negan

Active Member
Then don't be a sucker for those who sent you there and made it such a Hellhole. It was just suppose to get the brown folks, but it grinds up plenty of white people too. Sacrifices have to be made thought, if you are at war, I mean plenty of white people would like to have government healthcare, but ya see the brown folks might get some and better to die in agony, than let that happen!

It's called drained pool politics, when the black kids get to swim in the public pool, they drain it and close it, nobody gets to swim, they'd rather fuck themselves. It used to be called cutting off yer nose to spite yer face, same idea.
Bro i don't know anyone who would want to be on government healthcare. Not saying there aren't but again we are products of our experiences. I witnessed the struggles my grandfather had dealing with the VA before he died of cancer. Also having lived in a government institution for 4 years I was a first hand witness to the waste and inefficiency. Private industry will always offer better services than government.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Well as you can see from my views theres never a good candidate for me. I don't fit within the 2 party system that we have here in the US. I'll tell you why i favor corporations over government to redistribute wealth. Government is very inefficient at spending money as evidenced by our national debt. Corporations on the other hand are very efficient at spending money, they don't waste or they don't stay around long. Its that simple for me. If our government could get the efficiency per dollar that apple or google do, i would be all for the extra spending.
You know, there never was a candidate for me either. If there ever were, they would not be anything like the one you like. But I'm not going around trolling others because of it AS YOU HAVE DONE. I'm trying to understand your position and frankly it's not very deep. But I respect your viewpoint. I don't respect that you disrespected mine. We aren't so far apart that we can't find a way forward. Elections are about making choices not getting everything I or you want. I'm for democracy. I respect the will of the people. Do you?

Please look at the following statement of yours:

Government is very inefficient at spending money as evidenced by our national debt.

Unless you are hitching your wagon to some grand conspiracy of the "elites" who control us like puppets, our government represents its people. We come to a meeting place and vote. So, I don't understand your statement. One does not follow the other. Our debt is high because our taxes don't balance our spending, not the other way around. There is plenty of evidence that we don't spend enough. Take Flint Michigan, for example. Costs to our society due to lead poisoning of children is projected to way out-strip the savings Michigan's then-governor was aiming for and never got. That's poor governance, not inefficiency.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Bro i don't know anyone who would want to be on government healthcare. Not saying there aren't but again we are products of our experiences. I witnessed the struggles my grandfather had dealing with the VA before he died of cancer. Also having lived in a government institution for 4 years I was a first hand witness to the waste and inefficiency. Private industry will always offer better services than government.
My mother is on Medicare and it's a good deal.
 

I'm negan

Active Member
My mother is on Medicare and it's a good deal.
I'm sure it is. She paid for it her whole life. Imagine if the government and actually collected your social security/medicare tax and invested it. Just like a giant pension fund. Imagine how great it would be then. Instead they have squandered it.
 
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