bf80255
Well-Known Member
clone him?
Creating True F1's (Help Me! :o )
- Thread starter King Arthur
- Start date
EverythingsHazy
Well-Known Member
I did notice that he said "randomly selected populations". If you want to get seeds who's offsrpgin will all be purple, you can do so within 3 generations, but they will probably be heterozygous for other traits at that point as well. So while you may have a genetic line with a true breeding color trait, the offspring might be different in some other way.
Lets say you have a plant that is Green and Tall, and one that is Purple and Short, and you want the offspring that are purple and tall.
Green=G
Purple=g
Tall=T
Short=t
In the F1 generation, they will all be green and tall.
In F2, you will have Green/Tall, Green/Short, Purple/Tall, and Purple/Short.
For purple and tall you have both ggTt and ggTT plants at a 2:1 ratio, and you can't tell them apart by looking at them, so when you select one to breed, you may (odds say you will) pick the one that is still heterozygous for the short gene. If so, you will get two different phenotypes in the F3 generation (Purple/Tall and Purple/Short), in a 3:1 ratio.
There will still be 3 different genotypes tho.
In order to speed up the process, you could take a few plants from the f3 generation, self them, and grow out seeds from each (labeled) and only continue the line with one that produced 0 short offspring, as there would be a higher chance of it being ggTT vs ggTt.
Now imagine adding in a bunch of other traits, such as potency, indica vs sativa, smell/flavor, flowering time, etc.. The amount of combinations rises exponentially. Getting a line that is almost completely stable with all of it's traits will take more time.
TheChemist77
Well-Known Member
ive been breeding for many years now, isolating genes that lead to structure,smell, taste, very hard to master..i would recomend starting by buying some true breeds or stabilized hybrid seeds, there are quite a few to choose from, skunk#1, is a good starter, afghan, bubble gum,and land race strains are all good to start out with but be sure they are stabilized, cross 2 stabilized hybrids or true breeds to get your f1's..crossing f1's to f7 is crazy that would take years of picking traits to keep n get rid of not to mention the space you would need to plant a handfull of seeds to pick from..buy stabilized seeds and cross to get f1's, or i also buy packs of 10 of f1's plant all 10 and find the best male and female, cross, then plant 15-20 seeds off that keeping only the best females and cross them back with that original male.. then do it agaibn and again till u have crossed 3-4 generations of females back with that same male.. normally after back crossing 3 times((cubed) the seeds are uniform or stabilized hybrids, ready to cross with another stabilized hybrid to create f1 seeds..
i actually prefer stabilized seeds over f1's, the f1 vigour isnt all its cracked up to be, and wouldnt you prefer having 10 seeds that you know will all be identical than having to plant all 10 just to find the best one?
ive been growing for 20 years and breeding for 6,, its alot of work and many headaches as keeping one trait wile getting away from another is exaughsting, tedious, and very hard to accomplish...
id stick to crossing stabilized seeds to create f1's,,and not getting into the crossing of f1's unless your back crossing to stabilize the f1's..believe me, in 6 years of breading my best cross to this day was when ,, i took a shit female from mr.nice wich is a true breed and pollenated it with a fire og bx3 from bcbd also a stabilized plant, i got about 50 f1 seeds off that cross and even though there is some variation most of them were kick ass, better than most strains ive paid for..here in upper mi its known as the fire shit, and i created it!!! ive been working on stabilizing that now so all seeds will be uniform, so far ive planted 30 of the 50 seeds and have 12 females that really stand out,,so i still have a ways to go, but i would put this cross up against girl scout cookies or many of the new strains today, and well at least everybody that has had it here claim it to be the best they have ever had!!
anyways hope i helped..
i actually prefer stabilized seeds over f1's, the f1 vigour isnt all its cracked up to be, and wouldnt you prefer having 10 seeds that you know will all be identical than having to plant all 10 just to find the best one?
ive been growing for 20 years and breeding for 6,, its alot of work and many headaches as keeping one trait wile getting away from another is exaughsting, tedious, and very hard to accomplish...
id stick to crossing stabilized seeds to create f1's,,and not getting into the crossing of f1's unless your back crossing to stabilize the f1's..believe me, in 6 years of breading my best cross to this day was when ,, i took a shit female from mr.nice wich is a true breed and pollenated it with a fire og bx3 from bcbd also a stabilized plant, i got about 50 f1 seeds off that cross and even though there is some variation most of them were kick ass, better than most strains ive paid for..here in upper mi its known as the fire shit, and i created it!!! ive been working on stabilizing that now so all seeds will be uniform, so far ive planted 30 of the 50 seeds and have 12 females that really stand out,,so i still have a ways to go, but i would put this cross up against girl scout cookies or many of the new strains today, and well at least everybody that has had it here claim it to be the best they have ever had!!
anyways hope i helped..
budolskie
Well-Known Member
Back crossing is what I would do once found a male and collected pollen from him,
@TheChemist77 would u suggest me crossing a male with my m8s f1 purple will be a bad idea ?
@TheChemist77 would u suggest me crossing a male with my m8s f1 purple will be a bad idea ?
TheChemist77
Well-Known Member
all crosses have the possibility of being great,,hidden genes can be expressed.. i always say if you have 2 plants u really like, cross them or get s1's,, you never know untill you plant the seeds and grow them out..crossing any male with that f1, seeds can be all over the place,short,tall,dence,fluffy,etc.. if u really like that purple f1, self it,, then u can try pollenating it with pollens and see what u get, but youll have an ace in the bank,,the s1's,, so u dont lose the strain...ive planted bag seeds back in high school that turned out to be some of the best weed ive ever had,,unfortunatly i knew nothing of breeding back then and lost the strains..i had skunk that smelled like road kill,,today all the skunks are citruc or sweet,,wtf happend to the roadkill plant that started the whole thing?? ive bought 12 different skunk1's and 6 different super skunks,,none smelled like that skunk from the late 80's early 90's,,,LOSTTHE BEST STRAINS!!!ALL GONE!!!
TheChemist77
Well-Known Member
If you dont have coildal silver try leving a female in flower way past finish, at some point she will throw out a male pollen ball..collect it and pollenate another female then you will have s1's..i actually like the rhodilization method ovef silver sprays because you can determine the amount of stress needed to herm the strain,, a girl that takes 100 days in flower to get a ball is a strong female.. i once had a northern lights plant take 128 days to get pollen,,the s1's i have are literally imune to stress,,,very strong females are best for breeding...
bf80255
Well-Known Member
I did notice that he said "randomly selected populations". If you want to get seeds who's offsrpgin will all be purple, you can do so within 3 generations, but they will probably be heterozygous for other traits at that point as well. So while you may have a genetic line with a true breeding color trait, the offspring might be different in some other way.
Lets say you have a plant that is Green and Tall, and one that is Purple and Short, and you want the offspring that are purple and tall.
Green=G
Purple=g
Tall=T
Short=t
In the F1 generation, they will all be green and tall.
In F2, you will have Green/Tall, Green/Short, Purple/Tall, and Purple/Short.
For purple and tall you have both ggTt and ggTT plants at a 2:1 ratio, and you can't tell them apart by looking at them, so when you select one to breed, you may (odds say you will) pick the one that is still heterozygous for the short gene. If so, you will get two different phenotypes in the F3 generation (Purple/Tall and Purple/Short), in a 3:1 ratio.
There will still be 3 different genotypes tho.
In order to speed up the process, you could take a few plants from the f3 generation, self them, and grow out seeds from each (labeled) and only continue the line with one that produced 0 short offspring, as there would be a higher chance of it being ggTT vs ggTt.
Now imagine adding in a bunch of other traits, such as potency, indica vs sativa, smell/flavor, flowering time, etc.. The amount of combinations rises exponentially. Getting a line that is almost completely stable with all of it's traits will take more time.
great points but thats how its done in the world of "professional" breeding thats why tomato breeders use populations of 10,000+ Luther Burbank used numbers in that ballpark as well (regarded as one of the all time greatest breeders) no one said itd be easy to find that special F2 plant but it can be done if you know what your looking for.
the way I always explain it is that breeding is like playing lotto and each seed is a ticket, you can have 10,000 tickets but if you dont know how or cant read them then it makes no difference it will have been a waste.
I honestly feel that with populations of around 100 or so plants you can make good enough selections to get your strain looking the way you want if you know what your doing, again it takes a shit load of study and time devoted to growing.
some traits are known as qualitative(color, shape, etc.) and are relatively simple to stabalize because they are typically monogenetic, which means that the trait is only influenced by a single gene.
while other traits are known as quantitative (height, potency, yield) and are influenced by multiple genes making it much harder to get these traits stable or improved.
Ive been working on pinkie pie for a couple of years and am still working on locking down 100% of the qualitative traits im after, the quantitatives have to take a back seat for now until I have a well established inbred line I can start doing test on to tell what the genome is looking like (doms and recessives) but in the meantime culling small, weak, non resinous plants should be at least tilting the odds in my favor when I start to improve on those quantitative traits.
bf80255
Well-Known Member
bf80255
Well-Known Member
taking a cross to the F7 is not crazy its what breeders should be doing in order to stabilize crosses and make a strain as uniform as possible, inbred mice strains have been documented well past the F20's so its possible it just takes time and idk about you but if im buying something it damn well better be something good that took time to make.
heterosis aka hybrid or F1 vigor is something that can be tracked and accentuated by selecting plants that hybridize well most breeders of canni dont test the crosses they make they just assume theyll be vigorous.
so you made an F1? and you liked it?
You dont backcross to an F1 plant unless your goal is to find another plant like the F1 in the progeny of the BC1, BC2 or 3. an F1 plants genotype will always be heterozygous and breeding to it will only lead to more heterozygosity within your line aka plants that dont look like each other or have the same traits, if you were to backross to a homozygous F2 plant you could potentially stabalize the traits your after but thats just lazy breeding and youll see no improvement in the line just stability and or uniformity.
if I have a GG#4 and I want to produce more plants identical to her I would self the plant to make S1 seeds not outcross and then backcross again thats just wasting time and running in circles. Aa will never make AA if you keep backcrossing to the Aa, get it?
bf80255
Well-Known Member
sam skunkman purposefully bred the skunk line to have a fruity aroma way back in the day because growers were getting busted by the LOUD ass putrid skunk smell, look up Road kill skunk if you want a taste of your childhood.
Do NOT, I repeat DO NOT!!! use rodelization!!!!
not every plant throws late flower nanners and the ones that due are just late hermis, when you use CS to flip its a chemical process inhibiting female flowering hormones ( the plant is still genetically female) but when you get a late flower hermi that means its not a female... it a hermi! dont ever breed with a hermi unless your goal is to make more hermis!
EverythingsHazy
Well-Known Member
How many generations have you gone through, and in which generation is your currently most updated batch?
What monogenetic traits are you trying to stabilize, and how are you attempting to do so (ei f1 > f7, f1-f3 then backcross, etc)?
Agreed. IMO, if you don't have a plant that produced offspring that are almost completely uniform, when selfed, then it should just be considered a cross vs a strain. If you buy a "Blueberry plant, 95+/100 should smell like blueberries. But, the way the cannabis seed community is now, with people giving fancy names to random crosses, you'd be lucky to get one out of 5 that smelled even remotely like a blueberry.
Agreed again.
King Arthur
Well-Known Member
Is there any way to know which genes are dominant and which are recessive? I am wondering if there is like a chart with dominant and recessive genes that you guys have.
OR
If we have to find them on our own by growing a big enough sample size.
OR
If we have to find them on our own by growing a big enough sample size.
bf80255
Well-Known Member
I have about 6 lines at the F6 im halfway through a grow that will push me to the F7 but most of my seedlots are F6 pure or crosses of the related lines, Ive done a few outcrosses as well to test the genome.
So far Ive got
autoflowering (cross was photo x auto)
bud color-purple
leaf color-green
pistil color-pink-purple(not fully locked down yet)
I also have criteria prior to selection of floral traits, I pop hundreds of seeds and only the ones that come above soil within 7 days and grow most vigorously are allowed to continue on, any runts or late poppers are immedietly culled, then males are culled, then I select females for traits of interest.
that would be a good way of telling which plants are crossed or pure except in the case of landraces where populations are heterozygous and have multiple genomes per population.
yeah man I agree its really shitty to pop 10 beans and 1 or 2 be even be close to what your expecting, very frustrating.
bf80255
Well-Known Member
yes, some genes (like autoflowering are known to be recessive) others like purple can vary from one lstrain to another so youd need to perform a test cross to be certain.
take your girl and another girl (opposite traits your after) CS one and pollinate the other with its pollen, grow out the seeds and from the progeny you should be able to decipher weather it was dominant or recessive. but then not all traits are so simple as dominant and recessive some traits can have co-dominance, partial dominance and those will mask at least partially, other traits.
thats the difference between monogenetic traits and polygenetic traits
you can just punnett square a mono but a poly is more complex.
http://www.biologycorner.com/bio2/genetics/notes_incomplete_dominance.html
bf80255
Well-Known Member
yup just cross your girl with any male from a line you like and the seeds they produce will be F1 (purple x male[stud]) grow those out and find a superior female and male from the bunch and breed them to make F2 seeds then find your special plants in your F2 and youll be well on your way to making a legit IBL. with each generation the plants will be more and more well adapted to your growing style and climate.
tightpockt
Well-Known Member
This might be a stupid question but how do you know which female is desirable without flowering her out first? Do you just pollinate a bunch of females that you've taken clones from and labeled to go back to them after you've sampled the flowers?