Day 46 - Seeking advice on beans, stressed plants, and lessons learned

H

hakish

Member
Hi all,

Looking for some sage guidance from the old hands. Bag seed grow 46 days into flower and I've got a couple concerns and just sort of in general wondering what I should do and looking to set some expectations for this and future harvests. There have been some issues which I've hopefully worked out, though a bit late. There was a dry out in early July which resulted in some nute balancing issues, a mistaken synthetic nute feeding in my subcool ss mix, some stormy days taking down power, some heat issues, and a potential pollination by a male I had out back which my cats were particularly fond of eating/brushing against etc (pollen -> cat -> human -> tent = GAH!) ..

Ya know, just everything a newb does their first time through, all at once! ;-)

So, I've got 5 plants flowering in total, 2 sativa clones and their seed born mother, and 1 indica clone and it's mother. 4x8x8 tent, 960W HPS (1x600, 1x360 conversion), subs super soil grow. The 3 clones were vegged for 3 weeks and moved to flower, the mothers for 60 days. In addition, I fear I may have pollinated these females, though I've got 8 fem clones in the clone tent so I'm not too worried about that. Just want to get through harvest, and have something worth keeping around. I tell you what though - they both wreak! The indica is very citrusy, and the sativa has kind of the old school "dank" smell, skunky and earthy.

Questions!

A.) Based on the images below, you'll notice some beaners growing, as well as some other structures producing white hairs but to me they don't quite look like Calyx's. Are these pollinated calyx's? They are not the standard bunches of beans in a cluster, but rather large calyx-like structures "sprouting" bunches of new hairs.. (Ex. Img 2 below, near the stem on the right)
B.) Is there a way to determine whether a plant was pollinated vs. having turned hermie due to stress?
C.) If this plant were pollinated late into flower, should I just grow it out and collect the seeds for future use? They appear to be quite fat and developing nicely, and I am far from opposed to letting some seeds mature properly on the smaller cloned plants since they won't produce much bulk.
D.) Is it worth keeping the seeds from a plant that hermied? Should I just plan on keeping a mother in veg going forward and seek out some fresh genetics instead?
E.) Will all plants "hairs" begin receeding into the buds as they mature? It seems like each night I get large growth spurts of new white hairs, esp. after feeding. Assuming this will slow down as the buds swell?

Both strains appear to be very hardy, took off quickly, tight node spacing, heavy vegetative growth, and very potent odor so I wouldn't mind keeping them instead of just chopping early and starting over, but at the same time I don't want to waste time as I've got a set of clones ready to make the flip.

Indica - super dense nugs, hard as rocks.

img_0002.jpgimg_0003.jpgimg_0004.jpgimg_0005.jpg

Sativa - whispier and branchier, maturing more slowly, as expected.

img_0001_01.jpgimg_0001.jpg


Was thinking the Indica may have another 10-15 days or more, and the sativa even more than that.. Starting to see Calyx's swell on both.. I am patient and determined not to chop early.

Thanks!!
 
Dr Gruber

Dr Gruber

Well-Known Member
A) Don't know
B) Don't know-Do you have any other plants around that could have pollenated them? If not, probably hermie.
C) Depends on how late in flower. They wont mature if it was too late and wont be viable.
D) Seeds from a hermie have more chance of producing hermies. That said, you might find some that come out just fine.
E) They don't actually receed. They change color and shrivel as they ripen. But, yes you will find some strains that keep putting out new growth when they are done. Those plants look like they have longer then 10-15 days to go. Check Trichome color with a scope and keep your eyes on the stigmas (hairs). When most of them have changed color you will be closer to harvest.
 
H

hakish

Member
Re: B - yes, there was a male in the backyard growing that the cats like to chew on and brush against which i did not realize until I watched it happen one day. My theory is pollen -> cat -> hand -> plant. Mostly curious if there is a way to know definitively one way or the other, ie would a hermie fail to produce some element a pollinated female would due to the lack of male genetics? Note: this male has since been composted

Re: C - Several do look fat enough to be ready to plant. Might as well give them a shot.

Re: E - I'll keep an eye on them over the next two weeks and see how they come along. Trichs are mostly clear with some clouding beginning to develop.

A) Don't know
B) Don't know-Do you have any other plants around that could have pollenated them? If not, probably hermie.
C) Depends on how late in flower. They wont mature if it was too late and wont be viable.
D) seeds from a hermie have more chance of producing hermies. That said, you might find some that come out just fine.
E) They don't actually receed. They change color and shrivel as they ripen. But, yes you will find some strains that keep putting out new growth when they are done. Those plants look like they have longer then 10-15 days to go. Check Trichome color with a scope and keep your eyes on the stigmas (hairs). When most of them have changed color you will be closer to harvest.
Click to expand...
 
36OhBuds

36OhBuds

Active Member
A.) Based on the images below, you'll notice some beaners growing, as well as some other structures producing white hairs but to me they don't quite look like Calyx's. Are these pollinated calyx's? They are not the standard bunches of beans in a cluster, but rather large calyx-like structures "sprouting" bunches of new hairs.. (Ex. Img 2 below, near the stem on the right)

I don't know what you're referring to. What you see are calyxes that have been heat stressed and are stretching beyond the bud most likely, but if there are hairs, it's a calyx. I don't see anything out of the ordinary.

B.) Is there a way to determine whether a plant was pollinated vs. having turned hermie due to stress?

Are seeds forming and are some of the white hairs turning red or receding prematurely while others around them still aren't, it would indicate that calyx got pollinated, the hair receded, and there is a seed forming.

C.) If this plant were pollinated late into flower, should I just grow it out and collect the seeds for future use? They appear to be quite fat and developing nicely, and I am far from opposed to letting some seeds mature properly on the smaller cloned plants since they won't produce much bulk.

Yes. If it's past week five or six, just finish her out. Some seeds never hurt anybody. They're free!

D.) Is it worth keeping the seeds from a plant that hermied? Should I just plan on keeping a mother in veg going forward and seek out some fresh genetics instead?

Yes. About half the plants will be hermie, and half won't. You'd have to grow them out to find one that is okay, then turn it into a mother, but, I've done it, and that's how I've created a couple strains and we're working on some now that started as accidental creations and we're stabilizing.

E.) Will all plants "hairs" begin receeding into the buds as they mature? It seems like each night I get large growth spurts of new white hairs, esp. after feeding. Assuming this will slow down as the buds swell?

Yes. As the recede, the calyxes are starting to mature and swell. They can't be pollinated at this point anymore I don't think - but more importantly once this happens the FIRST TIME, you will see a burst of secondary growth with new calyxes and hairs. Those will quickly mature as well and you'll have a decent chance to check it once you see this spurt occur.

I normally harvest in a few week window after this spurt happens.
 
H

hakish

Member
36OhBuds said:
A.) Based on the images below, you'll notice some beaners growing, as well as some other structures producing white hairs but to me they don't quite look like Calyx's. Are these pollinated calyx's? They are not the standard bunches of beans in a cluster, but rather large calyx-like structures "sprouting" bunches of new hairs.. (Ex. Img 2 below, near the stem on the right)

I don't know what you're referring to. What you see are calyxes that have been heat stressed and are stretching beyond the bud most likely, but if there are hairs, it's a calyx. I don't see anything out of the ordinary.
Click to expand...
I've managed to stabilize the tent at about 86-88F with good airflow throughout, and a drop to the low 70's at night. I've read 82-84 is ideal for daylight.. Should I be looking to cool things off more going forward? Certainly achievable but i'll need to upgrade some components before that can happen.. Could make due with a box fan in the interim.

36OhBuds said:
  1. D.) Is it worth keeping the seeds from a plant that hermied? Should I just plan on keeping a mother in veg going forward and seek out some fresh genetics instead?

    Yes. About half the plants will be hermie, and half won't. You'd have to grow them out to find one that is okay, then turn it into a mother, but, I've done it, and that's how I've created a couple strains and we're working on some now that started as accidental creations and we're stabilizing.
    ​



Click to expand...
Is there a preferred method for identification and removal for stabilization? ie veg until a mature shoot, clone the shoot, veg the clone and inspect for positive vs. negative growth traits and keep mothers producing clones with positive traits? just keep selecting non-hermie fem's? during flower? Guess I'll be spending some time in the advanced section. Very interested in crosses, trait selection, etc.. Are you then feminizing a bud for seed production of select plants or just keep a mother for cloning?
 
36OhBuds

36OhBuds

Active Member
hakish said:
I've managed to stabilize the tent at about 86-88F with good airflow throughout, and a drop to the low 70's at night. I've read 82-84 is ideal for daylight.. Should I be looking to cool things off more going forward? Certainly achievable but i'll need to upgrade some components before that can happen.. Could make due with a box fan in the interim.



Is there a preferred method for identification and removal for stabilization? ie veg until a mature shoot, clone the shoot, veg the clone and inspect for positive vs. negative growth traits and keep mothers producing clones with positive traits? just keep selecting non-hermie fem's? during flower? Guess I'll be spending some time in the advanced section. Very interested in crosses, trait selection, etc.. Are you then feminizing a bud for seed production of select plants or just keep a mother for cloning?
Click to expand...
The ambient temperatures are probably fine, but how far from the lights are the buds? The radiant heat could be considerably higher on some of the flowers regardless if your temps are 75 or 85 in the tent. This is what causes calyx stretching. Ambient temperatures up to 95, 100 sometimes are tolerated just fine, but it's the radiant heat in excess of that which really stresses the plants out.

The temps in my tent range from 79 to 89 during summer months... As long as you give them sufficient nutrition and water, temperatures aren't going to kill these plants. Will you experience random stressors, issues and deficiencies? Most likely.

As far as preferred methods for identifying removal, pop 5 seeds, you'll see what I mean. The genetics are going to be all over the flipping place most likely, especially if it crossed another plant. We had a plant go apeshit on some trainwreck we had growing, and we've got an awesome trainwreck cross we never thought to try. It took about 20 seeds, some clones, and a couple backcrosses, but it's got about 3 phenos now, and none seem to be hermi prone specifically, but ANYTHING created this way WILL have a higher tendency to do it than strains that don't have that in their lineage.

I would just say pick a few that grow like you like. It's all preference. It'll take you awhile for sure but it's worth it. I only do it when it happens accidentally. We had a REAL hermi, one with REAL pollen sacks (not nanners) and REAL female calyxes on the same plant. Took less than 72 hours for the sacks to start forming and before I got my eyes on them nobody else had seen it either and it had spewed over everything in a 360 degree radius, and the fan helped it out.

Ever heard of Cinex? Same shit.

It really isn't rocket science to be honest, just pick ones you like, and cross them back. Look up backcrossing it might help you out a bit.
 
H

hakish

Member
36OhBuds said:
The ambient temperatures are probably fine, but how far from the lights are the buds? The radiant heat could be considerably higher on some of the flowers regardless if your temps are 75 or 85 in the tent. This is what causes calyx stretching. Ambient temperatures up to 95, 100 sometimes are tolerated just fine, but it's the radiant heat in excess of that which really stresses the plants out.

The temps in my tent range from 79 to 89 during summer months... As long as you give them sufficient nutrition and water, temperatures aren't going to kill these plants. Will you experience random stressors, issues and deficiencies? Most likely.

As far as preferred methods for identifying removal, pop 5 seeds, you'll see what I mean. The genetics are going to be all over the flipping place most likely, especially if it crossed another plant. We had a plant go apeshit on some trainwreck we had growing, and we've got an awesome trainwreck cross we never thought to try. It took about 20 seeds, some clones, and a couple backcrosses, but it's got about 3 phenos now, and none seem to be hermi prone specifically, but ANYTHING created this way WILL have a higher tendency to do it than strains that don't have that in their lineage.

I would just say pick a few that grow like you like. It's all preference. It'll take you awhile for sure but it's worth it. I only do it when it happens accidentally. We had a REAL hermi, one with REAL pollen sacks (not nanners) and REAL female calyxes on the same plant. Took less than 72 hours for the sacks to start forming and before I got my eyes on them nobody else had seen it either and it had spewed over everything in a 360 degree radius, and the fan helped it out.

Ever heard of Cinex? Same shit.

It really isn't rocket science to be honest, just pick ones you like, and cross them back. Look up backcrossing it might help you out a bit.
Click to expand...
I moved the lights up in an effort to stave off a bad reaction after I added a second hood about 10 days ago. Temps shot up with another 400W lamp in the room without sufficient airflow and the girls reacted. After that and until yesterday they were at 17" above the top cola which puts ambients inside the canopy at about 88F. I dropped them 3" yesterday to about 14" since the original 17" height was pre-cooling modifications, no change in temps at the canopy. The tops are spread out so each top is circling the perimeter of the hood with a "bowl" in the middle so the distance to the canopy in the center directly below the light is still greater than 17" even with the tops closer to 13"-14", similar to a main-lined setup. Basically 4 tops each for the large plants. The 3 smaller clones are arranged in a triangle below the 400 w/ about 14" distance.

I currently have a single 150CFM squirrel cage pushing cool air through the 600 first, and the 400 second, leaving the 400 fairly warm still, both hoods sealed with duct/alum. tape. Once I get a bigger blower I'll be switching to a y-pipe and damper to control flow to each hood separately, and a better intake/exhaust+filter setup..

Ex. I can easily hold my hand at the warmest/closest point under each hood level with the top in that area and the radiant temp on my skin is warm, but not hot at all.

What is a common distance for 600W/400W lamps in general? I've seen the chart showing lux to distance, and "light burn" danger, but i imagine heat is different for everyone and a cooler running hood and room help reduce distances to a degree. My tent is 4x8x8 which puts me at roughly 1600W to reach 50W/sq ft. @canopy so because it's not packed with plants and fairly spread out I'd prefer to maximize PAR until I can alter other variables.

I've also considered that I don't necessarily need to light the full 4x8 space and that shooting for 1000W to fill the space is getting greedy and that using the 400W for veg, and keeping flower to 600W would both keep temps down and maximize growth through veg. leaving a bigger healthier plant to utilize 600W more efficiently vs. a weaker plant going into 1000W and not being able to fully utilize it's capacity.
 
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