Dear America: You should be mad as hell about this!

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
I will disagree with two technical points.
1) The octane numbers (which indicate suitability for piston engines) of methanol and ethanol are nearly identical.
2) Ethanol has a rather higher energy density than methanol. If you look at methylene (fuel minus water) component, it's 43.75% for methanol and 60.8% for ethanol. Satd. hydrocarbons are essentially 100% methylene and win the energy density sweepstakes. cn
I love you bro, and youre usually right on point, but somebody gave you some really bad data. Ethyl alcohol is non corrosive in engines, yet it's not used in extremely expensive racing engines, RC model engines or tractor pulls. this is because despite their similar octane rating (which only defines the speed of the fuel air mixture's burning, for determining the ignition timing offset) methyl acohol delivers much greater expansion, and more force against the resistance of the engine (more work despite similar burning temps)

If ethanol delivered more energy per gallon in an engine, E85 would not have sucked so bad. methanol (methyl alcohol/gasoline mix) delivers MUCH more power than gasoline especially when under the greater pressures of a nitrous injected or supercharged engine.

My grandpappy ran his truck on ethyl alcohol when he was moonshining, and he had to tear that engine down and rebuild it with a massive over-bore,much higher volumetric efficiency (nearly 90% as close as i can figure which is balls in a naturally aspirated engine) and severely retarded ignition just to make that damned thing run fast enough to stay ahead of the law. Had he run methyl alcohol in that engine his heads would have flown trough the hood as soon as he touched the accelerator.

TLDR in the same engine under the same conditions at the same purity, methyl alcohol is far more powerful than ethyl alcohol or gasoline. Raise the pressure with a supercharger, or nitrous oxide and the power difference becomes dangerous (aluminium blocks and heads cant take it) this is why Methyl alcohol is used in nascar not ethyl, gasoline or a mix despite the corrosive precipitates methyl leaves in the cylinders and exhaust system. Methyl alcohol is also the standard in indy racing, tractor pulls, sprint car, and every kind of drag except Nitro. if it didnt work better you bet your bottom dollar they would use something else.

Simple test, try to put ethyl alcohol in your mate's model aircraft engine. if he lets you do it (he wont) it wont have enough power to fly.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
If we things aren't working right, government will fix it. Sure prohibition, the war on drugs and the housing market didn't work out, but those weren't really government's fault anyway. Next time government will give me a mansion, a 2012 Porsche 911, and whatever else I want. Fuck Allah, government will give me 73 virgins!
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I love you bro, and youre usually right on point, but somebody gave you some really bad data. Ethyl alcohol is non corrosive in engines, yet it's not used in extremely expensive racing engines, RC model engines or tractor pulls. this is because despite their similar octane rating (which only defines the speed of the fuel air mixture's burning, for determining the ignition timing offset) methyl acohol delivers much greater expansion, and more force against the resistance of the engine (more work despite similar burning temps)

If ethanol delivered more energy per gallon in an engine, E85 would not have sucked so bad. methanol (methyl alcohol/gasoline mix) delivers MUCH more power than gasoline especially when under the greater pressures of a nitrous injected or supercharged engine.

My grandpappy ran his truck on ethyl alcohol when he was moonshining, and he had to tear that engine down and rebuild it with a massive over-bore,much higher volumetric efficiency (nearly 90% as close as i can figure which is balls in a naturally aspirated engine) and severely retarded ignition just to make that damned thing run fast enough to stay ahead of the law. Had he run methyl alcohol in that engine his heads would have flown trough the hood as soon as he touched the accelerator.

TLDR in the same engine under the same conditions at the same purity, methyl alcohol is far more powerful than ethyl alcohol or gasoline. Raise the pressure with a supercharger, or nitrous oxide and the power difference becomes dangerous (aluminium blocks and heads cant take it) this is why Methyl alcohol is used in nascar not ethyl, gasoline or a mix despite the corrosive precipitates methyl leaves in the cylinders and exhaust system. Methyl alcohol is also the standard in indy racing, tractor pulls, sprint car, and every kind of drag except Nitro. if it didnt work better you bet your bottom dollar they would use something else.

Simple test, try to put ethyl alcohol in your mate's model aircraft engine. if he lets you do it (he wont) it wont have enough power to fly.
Liet, I think we're talking about different things. I don't know anything about corrosion liabilities, but i imagine that's a matter of choosing the right materials for gaskets and intake/fuel delivery components.
I stand by my statements in re energy density. You're talking about something different: the power an engine can produce. Methanol's hurt in energy density (the high proportion of bound water) is, interestingly enough, the same property that makes it such a good performance fuel: the low molecular weight gives great expansion, and the high "ash" component makes for cool combustion, sparing valves etc. So i have no doubt that racers use it for a reason.

I will also wager another thing. Water has the best expansion ratio of them all (about 1500 from liquid to steam), and it cools the combustion process, which is why water injection allows running piston (and turbine!) engines beyond their usual safe compression/specific power envelope. I would bet that if ethanol were diluted to methylene equivalency (about 72% ethanol in water by weight, or 144 proof), it would burn jusyt as well in methanol-tuned engines ... assuming the gaskets etc. are up to it. Your grandpappy would very probably have had GREAT git-go but lousy range running ~150 proof squeeze, with less engine trouble.

A big problem with E85 was that most engines are gasketed for hydrocarbon fuels, which are generally gentle on typical gasket/connector synthetics. But if you had a vehicle with an engine that was built to run hydrocarbon, pure ethanol and pure methanol with similar efficiencies, a gallon of hydrocarbon would take you 1 1/2 times as far as a gallon of ethanol and 2 1/2 times as far as methanol under the same duty cycle. For road use, that matters an awful lot ... not so much for non-endurance races.

Some Sunday-night musings. cn
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure you're understanding the point being made. It's not about giving everyone above average paying jobs, it's about fair distribution of economic prosperity across the board. Banks who fail shouldn't be rewarded, CEO's whose companies go bankrupt shouldn't walk away with multi-million dollar packages, this is absurd, and if you disagree with me, please, provide reasons why. 298% increase directly to CEO's and super wealthy, while the bottom 90% of the labor force, the people making the products that bring in the revenue, enjoy a 4% increase growth. This, again, is absolutely absurd. Meanwhile inflation continues to increase and minimum wage hasn't been able to support a single person comfortably in a decade.

So please, turn your brain on and start thinking about this stuff in a different way. Stop trying to make everything partisan, stop trying to blame someone else or another group or government hand outs, this is all a completely separate issue.
Private companies should be able to provide whatever they want to their employees or CEOs in terms of contracting wages. The real problem is very well concealed and is not discussed much and you were partially right about economic mobility. The reasons we are in the mess we are is not because of capitalism, but crony-capitalism. Cronyism is destroying us and the wealth envy and class warfare is spurred on by politicians that are in on the game. Goldman-Sachs is one of the prime culprits and they are rewarded with even greater political influence.

Some of the things that have changed between pre-1981 and now include an ever increasing tax burden that makes it virtually impossible to have a traditional family, one parent at work, one at home. The second spouse is usually just working to pay the taxes. Government creep can be seen everywhere and it is a prime reason, in addition to technology that we take jobs overseas. Can you imagine how our economy would boon if we eliminated corporate tax and instituted something like the FairTax? Corporations do not pay taxes anyway, it's more misdirection by the government. Look over here, corporations are paying less taxes. ONLY INDIVIDUALS CAN HAVE WEALTH. Taxes can only affect individuals, corporations merely pass on their extra expenses to employees, customers and shareholders in higher consumer prices, lower wages/fewer jobs, and less dividends and ROI. Wealthy people are laughing at all of us arguing at the levels we should be taxing income. Income is for the suckers they would tell you. The FairTax would get into the pocketbooks of everyone that currently pays no income taxes, including the underground economies that operate tax free. It would also collect revenue from trust-fund babies and other wealthy individuals that don't work for a wage. But the biggest change would be the explosive economy as investors and entrepreneurs look at the US as the new tax haven for business.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Liet, I think we're talking about different things. I don't know anything about corrosion liabilities, but i imagine that's a matter of choosing the right materials for gaskets and intake/fuel delivery components.
I stand by my statements in re energy density. You're talking about something different: the power an engine can produce. Methanol's hurt in energy density (the high proportion of bound water) is, interestingly enough, the same property that makes it such a good performance fuel: the low molecular weight gives great expansion, and the high "ash" component makes for cool combustion, sparing valves etc. So i have no doubt that racers use it for a reason.

I will also wager another thing. Water has the best expansion ratio of them all (about 1500 from liquid to steam), and it cools the combustion process, which is why water injection allows running piston (and turbine!) engines beyond their usual safe compression/specific power envelope. I would bet that if ethanol were diluted to methylene equivalency (about 72% ethanol in water by weight, or 144 proof), it would burn jusyt as well in methanol-tuned engines ... assuming the gaskets etc. are up to it. Your grandpappy would very probably have had GREAT git-go but lousy range running ~150 proof squeeze, with less engine trouble.

A big problem with E85 was that most engines are gasketed for hydrocarbon fuels, which are generally gentle on typical gasket/connector synthetics. But if you had a vehicle with an engine that was built to run hydrocarbon, pure ethanol and pure methanol with similar efficiencies, a gallon of hydrocarbon would take you 1 1/2 times as far as a gallon of ethanol and 2 1/2 times as far as methanol under the same duty cycle. For road use, that matters an awful lot ... not so much for non-endurance races.

Some Sunday-night musings. cn
I'm no chemist but your comments vis-a -vis the expansion and cooler burning are correct, methyl alcohol (and ethyl too) carry a large burden of water in most solutions, however, racing fuel and model engine fuel (both pure methyl alcohol distilled to as high as 99.9% purity in WorldWide's Performance Blue) deliver maximum performance for off-road and model aircraft racing, but they require frequent maintenance, special cylinder walls, valves, combustion chambers, exhaust manifolds and piston heads to prevent corrosion. interior chroming, stainless steel, zinc plating, and ceramic/metallic composites have been used with varying degrees of success. when its burnt under pressure methyl alcohol produces strong acid salts that wreck engines fast. racer still use it because it performs. it's popular with off road racers because a couple jugs keeps yourt shit moving longer than gasoline would. i know some cats with enduro bikes which they ride on the street as well (im strictly cruisers) when they get off the dirt tracks they are required to drain their gas tanks and refill with gasoline to drive on the roads, (legislation declares methyl alcohol a deadly toxic and explosive product). they report better performance with methyl than gas. They hate the damage methyl does to their engine's combustion and exhaust systems, but they love the power and endurance of the fuel in their racing.

They pay MORE for their methyl alcohol racing fuel than gasoline (upwards of $6.75 a gallon) which is illegal for use on the street (so they must drain tanks or trailer to races) and deposits corrosive precipitates in the combustion chamber and exhaust system. These dudes aint stupid. Higher cost per gallon, more maintenance time, and more replacement parts, and a fuel that congress says ins deadly poison, and dangerously explosive, yet they use it in preference to the standard gasoline products, and only switch to gasoline when facing 25-life if they use methyl on the street.

using methyl alcohol on the street is:
Felony Use of an Unapproved motor fuel: why yes. a felony. punishable with 1-5 years in slam for violating federal highway statutes, and thats a three strikes violation, but just a normal one.
Possessing an explosive device: when used as a motor fuel methyl alcohol magically transforms a dirt bike or sand rail from a racing machine to a BOMB when the wheels touch the street. and thats a violent felony three strikes violation.
Bootlegging: Illegal felony intestate transportation of illegal un-taxed liquor and thats your second violent felony, triggering three strikes mandatory 25-life imprisonment

if you make your own Methyl Alcohol:
the still is a bomb violent felony
the product is toxic poison violent felony
the product is un-taxed liquor regular felony
the product is illegal explosives violent felony
and im pretty sure they could shoe-horn in some terrorism charges as well, for your gitmo vacation.

Those in charge REALLY dont want Methyl Alcohol as a motor fuel. check your sources bro, my sources say the shit is corrosive, expensive and fraught with legal hazards, but its worth the extra bullshit for the performance gain over legal and unrestricted ethyl alcohol, or gasoline.

oddly, the one place methyl alcohol is still available is as a fuel stabilizer, where it is 98% pure methyl alcohol, and costs $10 a quart, but is legal to put in your gas tank even on the roads. i cant even begin to figure out how that works in the tiny minds on capital hill.

edit: e85 was not a corrosion or gasket problem like "Diesel #2" (the engine wrecker), E85 is a shit performance and low fuel mileage problem. methyl is a metal corrosion problem. when you burn it in an engine methyl alcohol makes metal eating salts that dissolve aluminium at a frightening rate, and pit and scar steel fast too. "Diesel #2" was aa powerful solvent that dissolved the gaskets and seals on truck's fuel systems, and ate away the sealing material on head gaskets and injector nozzels. that shit put hundreds of owner-operator truckers out of business, and drove up rates for independent farmers. (ruined a few tractors too, but most small farmers ran on homemade biodiesel already)

regarding water injectors, as far as i know the only place you inject water in a running engine is in a jet engine's secondary combustion chamber (afterburner) and mostly only military and performance jets have those at all. even a few drops of water in a standard piston engine at operating temperature can raise pressures so high that cylinder heads pop and tie-rods break. when you want to increase pressures in a piston engine, you pipe in nitrous oxide (inert, non-expanding, non-flamable laughing gas) use a propane trickler (to richen the mxiture with the choke wide open) or pump in large volumes of air with a supercharger

NOBODY injects water in their piston engine except in science labs or research facilities.

PS. I suspect you are a spy from House Corrino, or possibly in the employ of Shaddam himself! Can i expect a team of Sardaukar Terror Troops at the entrance to my sietch tonight?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
A minor niggle: nitrous is not inert! It is a powerful oxidizer. Things burn in nitrous with the same enthusiasm as in pure oxygen. It's a way to both dendify the cylinder charge and add to the energy of the combustion pulse. cn
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
A minor niggle: nitrous is not inert! It is a powerful oxidizer. Things burn in nitrous with the same enthusiasm as in pure oxygen. It's a way to both dendify the cylinder charge and add to the energy of the combustion pulse. cn
I love it when you get your science on but i th9ink we're talking different molecules here, i never seen anything that makes anything burn with the enthusiasm (love that one, very descriptive) of a pure o2 environment, or when a dipshit leaves his o2 tank gassing off in the welding tank magazine (store room) overnight, and in the morning somebody has to sneak a cigarette in the shop bay... long story short, 1 prosthetic limb, several skin grafts and numerous minor burn injuries and penciled in eyebrows all around.

im not sure which oxides of nitrogen you been usin brougham, but the "nitrous oxide" "laughing gas" and "Nitrous Bottle" stuff i used now and again for recreational motor sports (and other more indoor uses) arent particularly flammable. back in the 80's a bottle of laughing gas and a sack of weed would get you in the door at any party in LA. from personal experience, smoking weed in a room full of dumbbasses huffing laughing gas doesnt cause anything other than hypoxia and the munchies. the short lived "lets get high on o2" craze resulted in several flash-fires and numerous cylinder burst incidents among the party set in LA in the 90's, but i dont recall any incidents from nitrous oxide which is still used as a propellant in aerosol foods today (whippits)

Note: spray can whipped cream will not make your car go faster. keep it on the pies kids.

when i say inert, i dont mean chemically stable, and non-reactive, i mean in a combustion chamber the nitrous oxide doesnt alter the speed of expansion or spark propagation of the fuel air mixture, so the primary factors (ignition timing, fuel/air mix and valve lap) dont have to be altered to accommodate nitrous. this makes nitrous oxide systems easier to use and slightly less expensive to maintain than other power boost systems. For mechanics inert means it doesnt fuck with your numbers and tuning, we dont give a rats ass about the rest of the universe. when you pipe in nitrous, all that happens in your combustion chamber (from a mechanic/racing perspective) is increased pressures, and more power from the same engine. The covalent bonds of nitrous oxide are too strong to break under the modest pressures and temps of a piston engine. i tell you this from experience, piping in raw oxygen, or any other oxidizer would blow your engine to pieces. nitrous is simple, friendly and pretty harmless in a garage, doesnt burn in open air, or under reasonable pressures and temps, and drops an extra 2-5 atmospheres into your combustion chamber without altering your fuel load, temps or timing. in mechanic talk, thats inert.

When using a supercharger, the fuel/air mix must be enriched (more fuel) to use the increased air volume. Superchargers (including turbo chargers, ram air, and ghetto blower motors) increase volumetric efficiency, but continue to increase heat, and fuel consumption with the increase in pressure until the parts fail. A propane gas trickler (hillbilly nitrous) simply richens the mix and causes incomplete combustion for a moderate gain in performance. other methods (gasoline drippers, engine priming liquids, hair spray, charcoal lighter fluid, naptha, hydrogen peroxide, acetylene, brown's gas, pure hydrogen, etc etc etc i seen em all) only serve to put your car in a wrecking yard not the winner's circle.


Note: nitrous oxide is dangerous shit when mixed with other readily available chemicals. when mixed with hydrogen peroxide it makes rocket fuel and explosions. seriously, dont fuck with this shit. piping anything into the intake manifold of your mom's ford taurus will NOT make you win the local street races, and will not make hot chicks dig you.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
If you have access to them, Dr. Kynes, i suggest you fill three containers with air, oxygen and nitrous oxide gas. Pitch a burning match into each. Observe.

Nitrous isn't flammable because it isn't a fuel. technically, it's an oxidizer. It is reactive, but because of the dilution with ash (nitrogen) not very energy-dense. An ideal combo for high-performance, short-duration piston engines. The next step up is nitromethane, which is practically a monopropellant. I'd bet a high-test nitro engine with a bit of nitrous assist would operate without any air intake at all. A similar principle runs anaerobic piston engines, like the ones that push torpedoes through water by burning a nitroester fuel like the US Navy's "Otto" formula ... essentially stabilized nitroglycerin-like molecules. cn

Here's Otto II. The nitrate ester of propylene glycol.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
If you have access to them, Dr. Kynes, i suggest you fill three containers with air, oxygen and nitrous oxide gas. Pitch a burning match into each. Observe.

Nitrous isn't flammable because it isn't a fuel. technically, it's an oxidizer. It is reactive, but because of the dilution with ash (nitrogen) not very energy-dense. An ideal combo for high-performance, short-duration piston engines. The next step up is nitromethane, which is practically a monopropellant. I'd bet a high-test nitro engine with a bit of nitrous assist would operate without any air intake at all. A similar principle runs anaerobic piston engines, like the ones that push torpedoes through water by burning a nitroester fuel like the US Navy's "Otto" formula ... essentially stabilized nitroglycerin-like molecules. cn

Here's Otto II. The nitrate ester of propylene glycol.

i understand that nitrous oxide formulae are oxidizers, but im talkin about laughing gas, i seen people huff that shit all night long and smoke freely in close proximity to the tanks. but i never seen anybody's cigarette even just burn too fast. but in an oxygen rich auto shop one cigarette really took the roof off when a 40 pound oxygen cylinder was allowed to leak out overnight. theres lotsa formulae with nitrogen and oxygen together, and several of them are liquids, like gilly water which fucks up normal piston engines with it's steadfast refusal to compress in the combustion chamber. i dunno how torpedoes burn their gilly water, but i do know some people tried to make the stuff to run race engines and it failed miserably.

check out Sunoco race fuels, and WorldWide race fuels, not a drop of ethyl alcohol in the joint, its all methyl and mixes depending on the race type and the sanctioning body.

model engine fuels are also, all methyl, with nary a drop of ethyl even offered as an option, despite being largely unregulated. fuel stabilizers come in two flavours, ethyl and methyl but years of experience teaches me that methyl works better in everything from motorbikes to tractors with faster starts after long downtimes, and easier maintenance of the spark plugs. ethyl fuel stabilizers leave a nasty greasy coating on tractor plugs, and ash on the spark plug terminals of my motorcycle.

Nitromethane is used in the top fuel drag racing circuit, but they do have air intakes, HUGE ones. they use a mix of nirtomethane, methyl alcohol and nitrous oxide to deliver power and acceleration you cant get anywhere short of a catapault launched fighter jet. they still pump air though.

early german rocket engines ran on methyl alcohol nitrous oxide and hydrogen peroxide, but they blew up almost as often as they launched. they did burn without oxygen intakes. but that brings us perilously close to a Godwin's Law situation.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Nitrous oxide (Nos) is laughing gas. The other two oxides available in bottle are nitric oxide, NO, which is uninteresting except to neuropharmacologists, and dinitrogen tetroxide, N2O4, which is a colorless liquid (when pure) that boils at twenty-one centigrade and generates those characteristic red-brown nitric fumes. The latter is used as a storable oxidizer, e.g. in the Titan II and some Soviet designs. It doesn't have the same reactivity as nitrous oxide, N2O, unless you provide it with a hypergolic (auto-combusting) fuel like a hydrazine. N2O4/ MMH and N2O4/UDMH are the typical charges for high-performance restartable liquid-fueled bipropellant reaction engines, of which the Shuttle's OMS and RCS propulsion subsystems were premier examples.

As for the Germans, I remember that the A4 (weaponized as the V-2) used watered ethanol as the fuel and liquid oxygen as the propellant. Its immediate successor, the Redstone, used the same fuel/oxidizer. The German Messerschmitt 163 Komet interceptor used high-test peroxide as the oxidizer and a blend of hydrazine hydrate and methanol (C-Stoff or substance C) as the propellants. I am unaware of a deployed German or von Braun design that used nitrogen oxides for either propellant or auxiliary. (The A4 used peroxide decomposed with calcium permanganate solution as an auxiliary to drive the fuel and oxidizer turbopumps.)
Once von Braun and his engine specialists figured out how to properly cool a combustion chamber, they went to hydrocarbon and liquid oxygen, a combination with much better specific impulse than what amounts to vodka. The Saturn V's F1 engines were the acme of that line of development.
cn
 

Corso312

Well-Known Member
When we were kids in highschool we would steal tanks from the hospitals and have parties, the automotive nitrus is slightly different from the med grade.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
When we were kids in highschool we would steal tanks from the hospitals and have parties, the automotive nitrus is slightly different from the med grade.
The automotive contains 10ppm sulfur dioxide to discourage, uhm, medical use. There are dead easy ways to finesse that. Now all I need is an excuse to Nos a Yaris. :joint::bigjoint:
 
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