DIY: pH Down - EASY!

Hiker said:

Can neither of you see you're just engaged in a pissing match? Or are you too busy wiping off your shoes and pissing back?

It's obvious this has become personal to both of you, so neither is ever going to concede. Agree to disagree and move on please.

This thread has become useless IMHO. Unsubscribed.

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im sorry he took it personal when i started off by posting the dangers of sulfuric acid. more than likely people who need to use it have an underlying hard water problem and are over compensating with an acid of which in carthoris's tutorial, is mixed to such a low ph its in decimal(.37 ph!!!) this is very dangerous and this is only at 2.3%!!!! even at less than 1% dilution sulfuric acid has the capability of reacting with all metals to produce hydrogen gas!, as well as reacting with PHOSPHORUS, POTASSIUM NITRATE, NITRIC ACID, CARBONATES(potash dolemit etc) MOISTURE CONTROL BEADS, as well as being listed as a known carcinogen in the msds

i offered an alternative which was more expensive yet cheaper than liquid ph down. he went on a butt hurt rampage copy and pasting things from google searches he did not fully understand till i caught him in a trap to expose the dangerous concentration he had mixed and passed of as a tutorial. i then offered a cheaper solution to both and conceded the price of sulfuric acid is cheaper. to which he attacked furiously like a man without a girl in his life. he then began stating a tonne of non-facts to which i responded with truths that burnt his enormous ego like a vampire to holy water. in conclusion stay tuned for my thread apple cider vinegar home brewing 101, and the follow up thread: apple cider vinegar, a comprehensive study in benefits and disadvantages of use in horticulture.

Applepoop, most of the scary/impressive hazards you have listed are peculiar to the concentrated acid. They do not apply to acid diluted below 10%. cn

applepoop1984 said:

im sorry he took it personal when i started off by posting the dangers of sulfuric acid. more than likely people who need to use it have an underlying hard water problem and are over compensating with an acid of which in carthoris's tutorial, is mixed to such a low ph its in decimal(.37 ph!!!) this is very dangerous and this is only at 2.3%!!!! even at less than 1% dilution sulfuric acid has the capability of reacting with all metals to produce hydrogen gas!, as well as reacting with PHOSPHORUS, POTASSIUM NITRATE, NITRIC ACID, CARBONATES(potash dolemit etc) MOISTURE CONTROL BEADS, as well as being listed as a known carcinogen in the msds

i offered an alternative which was more expensive yet cheaper than liquid ph down. he went on a butt hurt rampage copy and pasting things from google searches he did not fully understand till i caught him in a trap to expose the dangerous concentration he had mixed and passed of as a tutorial. i then offered a cheaper solution to both and conceded the price of sulfuric acid is cheaper. to which he attacked furiously like a man without a girl in his life. he then began stating a tonne of non-facts to which i responded with truths that burnt his enormous ego like a vampire to holy water. in conclusion stay tuned for my thread apple cider vinegar home brewing 101, and the follow up thread: apple cider vinegar, a comprehensive study in benefits and disadvantages of use in horticulture.

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What you did was threadjack a thread about using sulfuric acid as a PH down. No one cares about your make believe .02 apple cider vinegar.

there was a tonne of misinformation i had to disprove lest some noob use it and do damage to himself his plants or others.

"Applepoop, most of the scary/impressive hazards you have listed are peculiar to the concentrated acid. They do not apply to acid diluted below 10%. cn"

at a concentration of 2.3% dilution, which is exactly what the recipe on this thread came out to (14 cups water to 1 cup h2S04), the solution has a ph of .37 or 10 times the acidity of stomach acid. what is peculiar is how you provide no evidence to back up yoru claim that an acid that is 10 times stronger than stomach acid wont react with the inorganic as well as organic substances listed in the msds.

"No one cares about your make believe .02 apple cider vinegar." im not sure what [.02]sic apple cider vinegar is but i assure many people are interested in a safer alternative to ph down that also happens to be cheaper. for you to state other wise is ballyhoo.

the whole reason you feel the need to use a near super acid is because you have hard water. the old saying goes an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure but your logic dictates you believe a pound of cure isnt nearly as good as a ton of cure. keep dumping caustic nasties in your res and smoking it

applepoop1984 said:

there was a tonne of misinformation i had to disprove lest some noob use it and do damage to himself his plants or others.

"Applepoop, most of the scary/impressive hazards you have listed are peculiar to the concentrated acid. They do not apply to acid diluted below 10%. cn"

at a concentration of 2.3% dilution, which is exactly what the recipe on this thread came out to (14 cups water to 1 cup h2S04), the solution has a ph of .37 or 10 times the acidity of stomach acid. what is peculiar is how you provide no evidence to back up yoru claim that an acid that is 10 times stronger than stomach acid wont react with the inorganic as well as organic substances listed in the msds.

"No one cares about your make believe .02 apple cider vinegar." im not sure what [.02]sic apple cider vinegar is but i assure many people are interested in a safer alternative to ph down that also happens to be cheaper. for you to state other wise is ballyhoo.

the whole reason you feel the need to use a near super acid is because you have hard water. the old saying goes an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure but your logic dictates you believe a pound of cure isnt nearly as good as a ton of cure. keep dumping caustic nasties in your res and smoking it

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I use RO water. Stop trying to justify your stupid shit.

new thread coming soon make your own apple cider vinegar at 0.02 cents per gallon

.02 ACV, a quote from you.

You haven't disproved anything. Disagreeing and disproving are far different things.

Carthoris said:

I use RO water. Stop trying to justify your stupid shit.

new thread coming soon make your own apple cider vinegar at 0.02 cents per gallon

.02 ACV, a quote from you.

You haven't disproved anything. Disagreeing and disproving are far different things.

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a haphazard quote. if u use r/o water than why do u need an acid that has a ph of.37 even at a2.35 dilution? if used data and sources. youv used hearsay and blarney. you should probably take ur own advice

applepoop1984 said:

a haphazard quote. if u use r/o water than why do u need an acid that has a ph of.37 even at a2.35 dilution? if used data and sources. youv used hearsay and blarney. you should probably take ur own advice

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Did it ever occur to you that some of us have more than 5 gallons of water to ph? Please show hearsay and blarney that I used. The simple fact is that no one uses vinegar unless forced to because it doesn't work very well. What do people who use RO water use to PH? It sure isn't vinegar.

I do take my own advice. <3 sulfuric acid.

and why doesnt it work very well? it has a ph of 2.4 which is more than enough to bring r/o water with a ph of 5.5-6.5, add that to the fact that your tutorial doesnt take into account the fact that r/o water has a ph of 5.0-6.0 due to c02 reactions. if your res starts out as a ph of 5.0 distilled or ro water, and your adding an acid that has a ph of .37 and you cant keep it below 6.5 ph than you have bigger things going on than just a ph problem. chances are one fo your meters needs to be calibrated with a buffer solution. maybe next time you make a tutorial youl think it through a little better before posting nonsense and making thes dwight schrute statements such as "false!: sulfuric acid is perfectly safe! watch me pour it on my hands in these pictures so it reacts with the keratin in my skin and turns it yellow!" to back up your opinions.

plants absolutely hate strong acids. your recipe calls for an acid with a ph of .37 at only 2.3% concentrate. they hate that. it makes micronutrients available at extremely toxic levels. im gonna stop talking now this is a waste of time at least a few people have changed their minds about your blarney and thats good enough for me. good luck with your over fertilized plants with asbestos in their stomata

applepoop1984 said:

and why doesnt it work very well? it has a ph of 2.4 which is more than enough to bring r/o water with a ph of 5.5-6.5, add that to the fact that your tutorial doesnt take into account the fact thatr/o water has a ph of 5.0-6.0 due to c02 reactions. if your res starts out as a ph of 5.0 distilled or ro water, and your adding an acid that has a ph of .37 and you cant keep it below 6.5 ph than you have bigger things going on than just a ph problem. maybe next time you make a tutorial youl think it through a little better before posting nonsense and making thes dwight schrute statements such as "false!: sulfuric acid is perfectly safe! watch me pour it on my hands in these pictures so it reacts with the keratin in my skin and turns it yellow!" to back up your opinions.

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I didn't post this tutorial. My hands didn't turn yellow. What is the point of using RO water if you are going to pour vinegar in it? What is the PPM of vinegar and sulfuric acid at the concentrations listed. If you don't mind ordering stuff online or spending lots of money then you can argue that store bought PH down is better, but no one in their right mind argues that vinegar is better or even an acceptable substitute except in an emergency. The pictures of me pouring 33% battery acid on my hands was to prove the point that it is just a diluted acid even before diluting that isn't going to hurt you unless you get it into your eyes. Your reaction to sulfuric acid as a PH down is a lot like peoples reactions to uranium glass after we nuked Japan. Stupid, hysterical, and based on nothing.

"I didn't post this tutorial. "

i know. im looking at your tutorial right now reading the inaccuracies and guess work. the pictures of the keratin in your hands yellowing from the acid.

"What is the point of using RO water if you are going to pour vinegar in it?"

why stop there? lets not pour nutrients in it while we're at it? heck why not just set it aside and look at it?

"What is the PPM of vinegar and sulfuric acid at the concentrations listed."
its irrelevant but at 98.079 g/mol sulfuric acid wins at putting more crap in your res.


"no one in their right mind argues that vinegar is better or even an acceptable substitute except in an emergency"
vinegar as a strong buffering capability if you know what to add to it. so does citric acid. so does phosphoric acid. sulfuric acid is violently reactive by nature. there is nothing stable about it . plants dont like huge ph spikes they like stable phs and they hate strong acids on their roots. sulfuric acid is not a buffer it is too strong it is not meant for agriculture. just because all you need is a teaspoon for it to drop 5 ph levels doesnt mean its good for your plants. also a class 1 carcinogen not something anyone needs to smoke

"Your reaction to sulfuric acid as a PH down is a lot like peoples reactions to uranium glass after we nuked Japan. "

your real good with analogies but terrible with math and critical thinking skills. think about this, phosphoric acid is used in ph down from general hydroponics. sulfuric acid is cheaper. tell me why that is? could it be its a known carcinogen?

Ermm i think ill just spend 4 quid on a bottle of ph down and save my boyish good looks ,.

Bunch of dumbasses, there is no damn difference what acid you use, it is anyway in form of ions, sulfuric acid 2H+ and SO4(2-) , nitric acid H+ and NO3(-), phosphor acid 3H+ and PO4(3-) there is no goddamn pH difference if you use any one, its the balance between H+ and OH- ion concentration which sets the acidity or alkalinity in water. Introducing other ions such as SO4 is not bad at all (in very small concentrations for the pH lovering varue though), my nutrient supplements include SO4 as it is needed for plants. Stop crapping about the goddamn difference, there is none, you introduce extra H+ ions (protons) in the solution which in turn makes it more acidic. Sulfuric acid is only dangerous in its free form (only sulfuric acid) and concentrated not in solution of many ions. Acetic acid (vinegar) is very weak disassociation is not so great in turn you need more of it, and acetic acid ions CH3COO- smell bad in solution. IN ACID THERE ARE NO CONTAMINANTS, IT IS IN FORM OF IONS WHEN DILUTED. H+ and OH- are the ones representing pH SO4(2-), NO3(-), PO4(3-) are others which plants need anyway.

SOURCE: I`m a chemistry engineer!

I use sulfuric acid straight from the bottle a few drops at a time no dilution.

you are carthoris's auxiliary account. and its chemical engineer. sulfuric acid mists are a class 1 carcinogen, the worst kind. inhaling them is what causes cancer, no imagine usign it constantly as a ph down, building up in the plants gradually every tiem you chaneg your res, its still there. no imagine smoking it the water vapor passing through your lungs. there is a reason soda companies dotn use sulfuric acid in coca cola. it is a known carcinogen. its cheaper than phosphoric acid why woudlnt they use it? its a known carcinogen. phosphoric acid as bad as it is for your teeth and bones does NOT CAUSE CANCER!!!!

YOU ARE NOT AN ENGINEER YOUR A FRAUD AND A BLOW HARD

applepoop1984 said:

you are carthoris's auxiliary account. and its chemical engineer. sulfuric acid mists are a class 1 carcinogen, the worst kind. inhaling them is what causes cancer, no imagine usign it constantly as a ph down, building up in the plants gradually every tiem you chaneg your res, its still there. no imagine smoking it the water vapor passing through your lungs. there is a reason soda companies dotn use sulfuric acid in coca cola. it is a known carcinogen. its cheaper than phosphoric acid why woudlnt they use it? its a known carcinogen. phosphoric acid as bad as it is for your teeth and bones does NOT CAUSE CANCER!!!!

YOU ARE NOT AN ENGINEER YOUR A FRAUD AND A BLOW HARD

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I am not a chemical anything, and I'm pretty sure that any acid would cause harm to you.

Why not work on the way you grow instead of looking for a chemical fix it? Or maybe I'm missing something in the yelling that seems to have taken over the forum?

Motherhugger said:

I am not a chemical anything, and I'm pretty sure that any acid would cause harm to you.

Why not work on the way you grow instead of looking for a chemical fix it? Or maybe I'm missing something in the yelling that seems to have taken over the forum?

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if you scroll up maybe 3 posts at most youl see who i was talking to he has 7 posts and just so happens to comment on this one and he started yelling first . i know that sounds childish but he says hes a "chemistry engineer!" which if he was, there is no such thing, its chemical engineer. he obviously isnt what he says he is. hes trying to bolster carthorises rep and all sorts of nonsense by agreeing with him and making it seem its a common consensus that carthoris is correct. yes all acids are dangerous but did u know out of phosphorus citric and sulfuric onyl one is a class 1 carcinogen? sulfuric acid is a class one carcinogen when inhaled, imagien smoking bud treated with sulfuric acid acid as ph down, it is worse than inhaling the mists yoru smoking it. now people will say but its so diluted! not true even in dilutions it is a carcinogen. why do theyuse phosphoric acid, as bad as it is for u, in soda instead of the much cheaper to produyce sulfuric acid? because it isnt a carcinogen. case closed

albuhFeesse said:

I eat dog shit.

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Cannibalism is not well understood.

I know this is an old thread, but for those of you who can't afford to go out and buy a bottle of everything you might need, are new here, and looking for information on this topic, Applepoop should be pretty much ignored here. I am an MS degree holding chemist and have been a homebrewer/wine maker for over 20 years. Poor apple just doesn't know what they're talking about...not on chemistry, not on the amount of apples it takes to make 5 gal of cider; and the poor, ignorant soul has never heard of a chemical engineer? Chemical engineers are the people you should thank for the commercially available chemicals we use in our day-to-day lives. We chemists just find new stuff to play with, but the chem engineers figure out what the new stuff can actually be useful for.

I'm pretty small scale, so personally, I prefer to use citric acid in its crystalline form that can be found in the canning area of your local grocery store. It is safer to work with overall (won't melt your face off), easy to clean up if you spill it, doesn't evolve the fumes that apple is so afraid of, is a chelating agent, and a necessary component in most aerobic metabolic cycles. Additionally, less than an 1/8 tsp/ gal, will drop the pH of most U.S. municipalities' water into the necessary range for growing (still saving for an RO system or the parts to build one, po people have po ways). Just remember to off-gas your tap water for a day or three before you use it.

citric acid in powder, great idea!

The problem with citric acid is that the people who really need pH down the most need to break a carbonate buffer from very hard water. For this reason, a strong acid like nitric or sulfuric really is the best option. Trying to mix a weak base with a weak acid is futile.

Nitric acid is ideal in these cases, because sulfuric acid increases the sulfate level, and thus the chances of calcium sulfate precipitants. Calcium nitrate will stay in the solution easily, expelling CO2 gas from the carbonates.

I'm a bit shocked as well that applepoop could say there's no such thing as chemical engineers. It's unlikely he was an engineering, science, or math student himself to not have seen any classroom doors that say "chemical engineering lab" or curriculum for the chemical engineering BS degree programs. Of course chemical engineers aren't as real as electrical engineers. hehehehe (inside engineering joke)