DIY : Soldering Leds to heatsink ,without MCPCB.Doable ?

loergias said:

Hi, I've been checking your write-ups on your development of the Astir© line of LED panels and couldn't help but notice the very evident influences of KNNA and his write-ups on yours. Up until now, everybody's been offering very constructive criticism, as it seems you are taking this to a level beyond mere hobby and into the commercial level. So, is the reason you're trying to make your own thermal pad from scratch purely based on economic viability, as opposed to DIY practicality?

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No..Neither of them ....I'm trying to "make " (and show to everybody else interested , how to ..) an IMS (Insulated Metal Substrate ) ,meaning a heatsink that carries also the electric circuit and contacts ,in order to achieve superior thermal management (cooling & thermal expansion joint stressing ).
Something that right now ,is not (widely ,at least..) available to the market,in order to use ..(Being a D IYer or a led grow panel company ...).
Cost effective it is not ....Neither practical....
It is just a really efficient way attaching leds to a heatsink....And circuiting them,at same time ....
And specially for this design ,(either for my personal use or for commercial production ...If any ... ),state-of-the art ,parts & components are going to be used ..
Along with some " radical " thermal management ....Always at personal experimenting level ....
I don't know for further production....It is not my thing .....I research and design ...Nothing more than that ....
I ain't got any brains, regarding sales and stuff....

Before, you tried to emulate KNNA's work by using Kapton and cheap, hand-mounted LEDs.

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When ????

Couldn't you just use Kapton or another flexible copper clad cb product with your Oslon SSLs?

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Simply put..No.

Or does the need for the reflow soldering station and the fact Oslons are SMD make the SSLs less compatible with Kapton?

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Not just less compatible ....More like "totally uncompatible" .....

Aren't there other high power, white LEDs that have similar efficacy as the Oslons that can be hand-mounted?

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Unfortunately ,no ....
And there're more than just similar efficacy.....
Way more ,than that ....

It seems you're trying to improve your panels by giving it extra thermal conductivity mainly at the LED-Heatsink interface with just the right amount of insulation. Am I seeing thing correctly here?

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Yeap...But not just that ......

I.e .

If for example an OSLON LED is soldered
onto an aluminum MCPCB, temperature
changes will result in thermo-mechanical
stressing of the soldered joint, due to the
difference in the CTE and the material
strength. This leads to gradual fatigue and
aging of the joint and – depending on the
level of stress – sooner or later to a
functional failure, owing to loss of
mechanical, electrical and thermal contact
......
New lead-free solder materials, e.g. INNO
solder (SAC solder with additives such as
Ge, Bi) or IMS carriers with specially
adapted dielectric strengths, offer further
potential for improvement.

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https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/613358-new-experimental-advanced-diy-designs-2.html#post8552997

I want to construct some LED panels that doesn't require expensive equipment (i.e. ~600 dollar solder stations). Kapton-like products work as far as providing the insulation and thermal resistance. If they work adequately enough in the role they play in dissipating the heat from the LED junction, why not just promote their use for DIYers as KNNA did? Or, are you simply trying to improve upon it further for the commercial success and profitability of your Astir© line of products? If you did develop your own line of more feasible thermal tape, would you market it for less than your competitor's prices on www.customhydronutrients.com???

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Never used Kapton ..And probably never will.....
Let alone to "develop my own line of more feasible thermal tape"....

I don't quite understand the intent of trying to make a start-up company based on the model of DIY proposed originally by KNNA.

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??? Knna used hard aluminium profiles as heatsinks ..
I/We used soft aluminium heatsinks .....

Knna used Kapton ..
We do not ....

Knna used high quality GDs ..
We used asian cheapos .....


Knna proposed CW / NW with reds 630/660 and some blue ...
I say only WW & NW ,is all what's needed .....

....

based on the model of DIY proposed originally by KNNA

???
Which one is that ?

What benefit does it do for us DIYer's but help drive up the cost of individual LED lamp components, due to the growing demand and large competitors gaining a monopoly over the industry in their continual, unsustainable effort to meet that demand? The currency that a majority of these LED companies seem to dedicate their time and resource to, I believe, is the planned obsolescence and the insufficient technical understanding/know-how possessed by your average horticulturalists to repair and salvage their own broken lamps. So, these large companies bank on that understanding to inflate the prices of otherwise cheaply produced goods and make the lives of DIYers miserable. Their (the large corporation's) credos is to demoralize the ethos of DIY and its rugged attitude towards wasteful, mass consumerism. Sometimes, i wonder if all products that have great potential in the market follow this boom-and-bust trend, giving little or no incentive for DIY enthusiasts to thrive. Something worth pondering... But then again, mass production of LED grow panels overseas in mechanized factories do have their benefits in their Eco-friendliness. It's no wonder China comes out among top in GDP but also for being one of the most polluted and health-hazardous areas to live.

Sorry, if I've gone a little rogue into talking about the economic/business aspect of making LED panels. I still have a great appreciation for all the valuable knowledge and information being transmitted through this forum. It's just a harsh reality when owing up to the Fact: the machines overseas are about a hundred times more efficient in putting together panels that actually work, while asking only a meager pence more and saving consumers all the cost and labor of building and maintaining LED panels for themselves. Please, do take my deconstructive criticism with a grain of salt; I'm sure your LED panels possess something that sets them light years ahead of the competition (both large and small), carrying some kind of future-proof seal of quality.


-genpah

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Well ,more or less ,I agree with your thoughts about the whole thing ...
I also hope that, you have understood some things more about the whole concept ...

the machines overseas are about a hundred times more efficient in putting together panels that actually work, while asking only a meager pence more and saving consumers all the cost and labor of building and maintaining LED panels for themselves
...
Yes......

While DIY panels will always be " light years ahead of the competition (both large and small), carrying some kind of future-proof seal of quality " ....

So ...

-Either you build your own light years ahead of the competition (both large and small), carrying some kind of future-proof seal of quality ....
Needs time,money,effort ,ect

-Either you buy a " light years ahead of the competition (both large and small), carrying some kind of future-proof seal of quality" led grow panel ..
Needs money ...Probably quite a lot ...

-Or you buy (for less money,than in previous case ) ,a panel that actually works ....
( ??? Does it ? In what terms ? )
But of way inferior quality ....
...
Or you even can try purchasing an automobile Xenon HID frontlamp kit ..
They work even better than most of commercial led panels ....
For almost half the price.....
Compact -Low powered -Not many heat issues -ect ...
Why go leds ?

I see a lot of us have similar ideas towards developing these lights. I was thinking if using a solution from flashlight scene would be feasible, I have seen few cases where they have ground the bottom terminals off and reflowed the emitter directly to a copper base. If anyone has a clue how the bottom copper layers are connected to the surface layers in Cree emitters please let me know. I don't have any of those at hand right now, but should have few later this week. I would like to avoid removing the bottom layers totally if possible, I think it would be much better if the electrical connection between bottom and top layers could be cut some other way.

ffs sds... last time I read about your LED quest you were disheartened and said you would probably just end up buying another chinese panel if you were to go through it all again... I'm glad you got the fire back for the LED world and you continue to take things to the next level .