Do I need to defoliate more?

DaFreak

Well-Known Member
Sorry bk, I understand that there is nothing people on pot boards hate more than people who have actually had success at it. Get over it guy. If you've been growing for 20 years and haven't made millions (if making money was your goal) then you're doing something wrong. I can point to a handful of people on these boards that have made millions. And we don't even do dime bags in Japan, we sell by the kilo.

Anyway, what's his name above had problem with me saying that I read something on the net that talked about studies. It's true, no citations were given for the studies that the person speaks of so that's how I worded it. Here is what he said.

"
Studies on defoliation have showed that a majority of species of plants, show an ability or buffer to compensate for some type of structural damage during its life. Its almost expected by plants that some event will happen and that it be prepared. What defoliation studies have in common, is that plants are not negatively impacted by the loss of leaves up to a certain point (around 25%). It seems that a plant will typically have more leaves than it requires, almost as if history has taught it to anticipate the loss of leaves through enviromental factors. This was some of the conclusions by people conducting these studies.

Now a plant holds the ability to store nutrients (photosynthate) in its roots, branches, leaves and fruit. This is its major storage sink during growth and vegetation. However in the event of stress, injury or sickness, a plant may be able to redirect this stored energy through a process called phloem translocation. Some plants have enough stored resources that they can revegetate, if all their top growth is removed. Cannabis does not hold this ability but it may be possible that all plants have some degree of stored energy to respond to stressful events. In the partial defoliation studies, some report the event where the variables grew taller than the controls. Suggesting that the plants response to reduced leaf numbers, caused them to branch out to create new leaves to sustain its level of photosynthetic capacity. This response could be aided by stored resources through phloem translocation. This also brings up the interesting reason of why supercropping (i like to call it scropping) may appear to increase growth and vigor.

However, to all extent there has been no evidence to support this. The problem here is that any resources that is moved because of a stress response, is prioritizing it for the repair of damage or the development of new leaves. This has been observed by many, as a delay in flowering due to the stress induced by defoliation."

But if anybody is really interested in looking up studies on non-cannabis plants google is your friend. Here is a good piece https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3996606/

But I don't think people really want to know to be honest. I think they want to act like dickwads on the net and carry on course.
 

My Name is Mike

Well-Known Member
But if anybody is really interested in looking up studies on non-cannabis plants google is your friend. Here is a good piece https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3996606/

But I don't think people really want to know to be honest. I think they want to act like dickwads on the net and carry on course.
False. I do want to know. I'm not here to disprove people to be argumentative. That article above is dreadful, but I found your source of what you're quoting above and think that's a very good read. It is a forum but definitely a wealth of seemingly credible information shared from 'Dr. Photon' who appears to be very knowledgable.

That's the link you could've shared. It's below for anyone interested. They touch on schwazzing to.

 

Kalebaiden

Well-Known Member
False. I do want to know. I'm not here to disprove people to be argumentative. That article above is dreadful, but I found your source of what you're quoting above and think that's a very good read. It is a forum but definitely a wealth of seemingly credible information shared from 'Dr. Photon' who appears to be very knowledgable.

That's the link you could've shared. It's below for anyone interested. They touch on schwazzing to.

STOP MAKING GOOD ARGUMENTS! I HAVE ENOUGH TO READ ALREADY!

...also, that was a fúcking good read.
 

DaFreak

Well-Known Member
I could have shared it, but I know if anybody is interested all they need to do is copy and paste, besides, he is one that says the defoliate camp is wrong so I thought the academic articles are less bias.

What I thought was interesting is the idea that up to 25% leaf defoliation shows no damage to the plant. Then I can understand why selective defoliation to increase air-flow and control environment would be a plus. I could also see where there are two curves, one of benefits of better airflow and the decrease in yield from removing fan leafs and that might be higher than 25% leaf removal. But that's only really true if you have too many plants, and to be honest I think that is what I am seeing. People cramming way too many plants in and being forced to defoliate. If that is the logic behind it then yeah, SOG does this with a lot less work. Maybe defoliation is the masochist way of doing SOG?
 

My Name is Mike

Well-Known Member
I've been misusing the term defoliation. What I do is prune and was using both with the same intended meaning. Schwazzing would be an example of defoliation.

If you watch the schwazzing video of the guy who apparently created it, where he lost credibility from me was when he plugged his nutrient line Success as a calculated replacement of the micros you'll lose from schwazzing. That puts into question his marketing tactics of what he's trying to incorrectly share how plants actually feed.
 
This is one of my plants 8 years ago, very high amount of defoliation, I understand how plants grow and understand how removing a single leaf will likely effect the plant growth and shape.

A single fan leaf covering a node/shoot will make that node/shoot stretch around the leaf for light, if a shoot runs low on space it will stretch, when you get things just right, every node/shoot will grow at the same rate and you get one amazing canopy in any shape you want.

Its up to you, to train a plant to grow the way you want it to grow, make the best use of the light and space you have.
my plant 8 years ago.jpg
 

lime73

Weed Modifier
False. I do want to know. I'm not here to disprove people to be argumentative. That article above is dreadful, but I found your source of what you're quoting above and think that's a very good read. It is a forum but definitely a wealth of seemingly credible information shared from 'Dr. Photon' who appears to be very knowledgable.

That's the link you could've shared. It's below for anyone interested. They touch on schwazzing to.

Now this i understood ;)

This is an excellent read! :clap:

Thank you for sharing link. :bigjoint:

Thread is moving along much better now!
 

HighFlow

Active Member
How have I only just found this thread? Excellent reading. Went though a whole bag of popcorn.

In case you didn't know which side I'm on, I defoliate heavily and have excellent results.

The argument that the plant knows best has no real basis because, these plants were brought in from the wild, where they are subject to rain, wind, pests and plagues, where having dense foliage serves as a reserve for the plant, and light is in abundance to the indoors, where we feed them everything they want, protect them from pests and plagues, rain and wind, where light doesn't penetrate below the canopy so there is no need for that growth, other than blocking airflow which is a very real problem in a contained space. As for needing those top leaves to photosynthesise, you know bud does that right? You realise you are replacing leaves with buds, that do just the same thing? So, having a less dense canopy so light can fully penetrate the 12" or so that is is actually useful, is a good thing.

Now, the good part, for those of you who don't defoliate and are raging whilst you read this. Nobody is saying that defoliating bigger plants grants anything like a SOG or SCROG grow.. SOG with just rooted clones is the most efficient way to grow, always has been, always will be, but it requires a large amount of cloning and a good deal of mothers to work as intended. That is why people who use less plants, veg them a little longer, use the defoliation method, because it is the best way to deal with plants 'of a certain size'. I wouldn't take leaves off any plant in a SOG setup.

All in all, if you have an opinion on this, and you havn't grown both ways, your opinion is invalid. You may have one, but it doesn't mean anyone should give you the time of day on it.
 

Dogman5

New Member
Well, seems the defol crowd is loosing this argument. Been growing cannabis for about 5 years and only grow for my wife and I, though I do grow big veggie gardens as well. One thing that is not discussed much is whether the plant is a sativa or indica dominate strain and just how busy the plant gets in the grow conditions provided. This year was one White Shark (pheno indica, heavy leaved and one Jack Herer, heavy sativa, light leaved compared to the White Shark. Both plants were in 10 gal fabric pots in identical soil. The Shark was a much heavier feeder than the Jack and flowered much earlier as well. The Jack was defoled on the lower fourth at about 4 weeks into veg, pulling leaves from a sativa from that point seemed cruel except for an occasional large fan leaf. The Shark I spot defoled throughout the grow as well as topping twice on both plants. My Jack was in the greenhouse and the Shark was outdoors. Here in the northwest growing sativa with long flowering times is not a good idea, to much wet October and November rain and cool weather. Trying to get the nutes right for the Shark was a challenge and leaves yellowed much quicker on the Shark and I may have over nuted on the N trying to slow yellowing down some and my yield was not so good ( 4 oz). The Jack yellowing was much less and now at almost 7 weeks into flower very little defol but just beginning to yellow a little. In both plants I generally would not pull leaves unless yellowing or in the case of the Shark just because there were so many leaves that I would pull them just to get air flow and light lower into the plant. Looking at much greater yield for the jack. Overall, how much defol is done is really more about the strain/pheno. To defol just because that's what you do no matter what can't be a good practice. But then again, I'm one of those guys that treats my plants like a loving pet whether tomatos or cannabis.
 

FakePres

Member
Sorry bk, I understand that there is nothing people on pot boards hate more than people who have actually had success at it. Get over it guy. If you've been growing for 20 years and haven't made millions (if making money was your goal) then you're doing something wrong. I can point to a handful of people on these boards that have made millions. And we don't even do dime bags in Japan, we sell by the kilo.

Anyway, what's his name above had problem with me saying that I read something on the net that talked about studies. It's true, no citations were given for the studies that the person speaks of so that's how I worded it. Here is what he said.

"
Studies on defoliation have showed that a majority of species of plants, show an ability or buffer to compensate for some type of structural damage during its life. Its almost expected by plants that some event will happen and that it be prepared. What defoliation studies have in common, is that plants are not negatively impacted by the loss of leaves up to a certain point (around 25%). It seems that a plant will typically have more leaves than it requires, almost as if history has taught it to anticipate the loss of leaves through enviromental factors. This was some of the conclusions by people conducting these studies.

Now a plant holds the ability to store nutrients (photosynthate) in its roots, branches, leaves and fruit. This is its major storage sink during growth and vegetation. However in the event of stress, injury or sickness, a plant may be able to redirect this stored energy through a process called phloem translocation. Some plants have enough stored resources that they can revegetate, if all their top growth is removed. Cannabis does not hold this ability but it may be possible that all plants have some degree of stored energy to respond to stressful events. In the partial defoliation studies, some report the event where the variables grew taller than the controls. Suggesting that the plants response to reduced leaf numbers, caused them to branch out to create new leaves to sustain its level of photosynthetic capacity. This response could be aided by stored resources through phloem translocation. This also brings up the interesting reason of why supercropping (i like to call it scropping) may appear to increase growth and vigor.

However, to all extent there has been no evidence to support this. The problem here is that any resources that is moved because of a stress response, is prioritizing it for the repair of damage or the development of new leaves. This has been observed by many, as a delay in flowering due to the stress induced by defoliation."

But if anybody is really interested in looking up studies on non-cannabis plants google is your friend. Here is a good piece https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3996606/

But I don't think people really want to know to be honest. I think they want to act like dickwads on the net and carry on course.
Thx for the article, Freak.
 

HighFlow

Active Member
Just thought I'd leave this here.

This is RD's flower room..

Free cookies for anyone who can spot a fan leaf in this picture.... I'll wait.dank.PNG

Original video:
Flip to 18:30 for the flower room.
 
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