Do you need to flush when growing organically?

Da Almighty Jew said:

ok ok, im gonna make a tea of 1tbls per gallon on peruvian seabird guano, teaspoon natures nectaer K, a little molasses and tap water. I'll feed that to a couple plants and see if i can taste a diffrence. thanks for advice

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Whoaa!! Definitely DON'T make a tea with seabird guano right before harvest. Seabird guano is high N as well as P, you will probably get some funky growth. I don't think using teas or nutrients the last week is going to be beneficial, but Corbat420 said, you could side by side them.

I don't think anyone else asked, but what type of soil are you using? That would be a big factor.

+ WitchDoctor + said:

Whoaa!! Definitely DON'T make a tea with seabird guano right before harvest. Seabird guano is high N as well as P, you will probably get some funky growth. I don't think using teas or nutrients the last week is going to be beneficial, but Corbat420 said, you could side by side them.

I don't think anyone else asked, but what type of soil are you using? That would be a big factor.

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I grow in roots organic soil. Everything organic. I fed my ladies the tea, they loved it. I'm tempted to feed them again one more time before chop chop like others have recommeneded but for the last feed it will be tap water. I have never had buds that looked this good. Rock hard coated with gleaming resin. If i didnt feed that seabird guano my girls would not be as happy because i can tell they still want more food. Im thinking its because i did not feed heavily throughout this run.

So i dont know why you would think one would get funky growth from seabird guano, plants use N and P all the way up to harvest and the more i grow it seems like they like equal amounts of N and P all through their flowering period.

Da Almighty Jew said:

So i dont know why you would think one would get funky growth from seabird guano, plants use N and P all the way up to harvest and the more i grow it seems like they like equal amounts of N and P all through their flowering period.

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True. I would not think you would necessarily see funky growth unless you have genetics that like to foxtail. What I can add is I have done side by side comparing and taste tests on bud that was fed until harvest and bud that wasn't fed for the last 10 days. The bud that wasnt fed for the last 10 days received turbinado sugar in their water.

The herb that is fed until the day before harvest comes out a darker green color. The herb that hasnt been fed always is a lighter lime green color after cured and it is higher quality. I have done more then one test because I have a separate grow that is only for oil that is always fed until the day of harvest.

Da Almighty Jew said:

So i dont know why you would think one would get funky growth from seabird guano, plants use N and P all the way up to harvest and the more i grow it seems like they like equal amounts of N and P all through their flowering period.

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It happened to me with my plants before, however in the second week of flower, not just before harvest as you are talking about. I used to much obviously, but only by a TBSP or so...and my Chemdawgs grew long weird looking flowers, instead of tight compact buds as it usually did. I'm not sure if something like this would happen that late in flower, because the plant isn't growing anymore, it's almost finished growing. But that's another reason I would be anxious about adding any N right before harvest, because it seems like there would be more than enough N already in the plant or in the soil to cover that last week of growth. I would imagine giving it extra N at that time would retard growth or do something crazy. I could be wrong.

I don't flush. I use water for the last week, but I don't over-water, I just let the roots eat up anything that's left in the soil that last week. However, when I water for longer than a week I get a smoother smoke and a better taste. I've always wondered too though if using nutrients the last week would increase potency or yield. I look forward to seeing if you can tell a difference in the ones that you just watered compared to the ones that got nutrients.

Have you ever looked into using fruit peel ashes for NPK? It seems to me like if we were using ashes during the last week we'd have a better shot at seeing if we get better results without making it taste worse..
I look forward to seeing how your plants do though and if there is a measurable difference.

Da Almighty Jew said:

Flushing organic?

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It's hard to flush organic soil but still try, If ur organic ferts were soluble it will be easier and also adding a fulvic chelator will help a little..... Nutrient cycling is usually not so great in our short run soils, we don't have a full ecosytem of microbes so a lot of nutes get locked up in the bacteria and fungi and not relaeased.(giving time to lower EC in soil before it rises again)

Will there be any bad results if you feed organic nutrients up untill harvest? Yes, You want to try to shut down the chlorophyll production in it's last week so the chlorophyll will break down faster while curing. Also so the plant will use up other displaced elements it stores in the leaves and tissues. =healthier, tastier ans smoother cannabis(excessive stored nitrogen in plant tissue is carcinogenic)

InfidelUniversity said:

(excessive stored nitrogen in plant tissue is carcinogenic)

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That's a good enough reason not to add nitrogen right there lol. No point in smoking a cancer cure with carcinogenic properties.

Hydro is better with these aspects and with heavy metals................Soil might not be the healthiest for us? Not sure tho!

Also take it easy on the phosphates people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I use cow and sheep manure in my teas along with molasses and I keep neptunes harvest 2-4-1 on hand just in case but I've never added it to my teas.

I'm currently flushing(all the way to harvest) a couple bubblegum girls with nectar of the gods Herculean harvest 0-10-0. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Couldnt you use hydrogen peroxide in your water to kill the microbes before harvest, from what i understand it kills the fungi. Just a thought

Antihero17 said:

I'm currently flushing(all the way to harvest) a couple bubblegum girls with nectar of the gods Herculean harvest 0-10-0. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

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It's not really 'flushing' if you continue to feed your plants with high amounts of phosphorous. That's like the total opposite of flushing. How much are you using?

Budbonics said:

Couldnt you use hydrogen peroxide in your water to kill the microbes before harvest, from what i understand it kills the fungi. Just a thought

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H[SUP]2[/SUP]O[SUP]2[/SUP] kills virtually all kinds of microbes and cells (including human skin cells) at sufficient rates. Why would you want to kill your biota, though? If you're growing organically in soil you can significantly reduce or stop feeding the last week or two before harvest and there should be plenty of nutrition for the plants. Nutrients in ionic form, especially cations considering the typical pH of soil, are held loosely by particles of humus and clay. Humus and clay have a very high Cation Exchange Capacity, being comprised of very small particles possessing a high surface area and many negatively charged 'sites' that attract these positively charged cations (ammonium, potassium, calcium, magnesium, aluminum, sodium). Then there are nutrients immobilized within the bodies of the microbes, continuously being released (mineralized) into the rhizosphere. Finally, there are still more nutrients locked up in precipitate, in organic matter and more tightly bound up in chemical complexes.

Sterilizing your soil before harvest is probably the worst thing an organic grower could do.

i dont know what going on here so im gonna get straight to the point do you need to flush with organics? well if your adding 0 fertlizer and depending all on whats in the soil then no. if your using teas dont feed last 2 weeks plenty of unbroken down nutes in tea to las all the way till harvest, just add plain. water do you need a full blown flush? no, just water till you see clear runoff, stop watering last week so soil can dry. if your doing this withing 2 weeks you will probably only do a small flush once and add a little water maybe 1 time b4 you let the soil dry.

as for killing microbes this is not going to be beificial. the microbes will further the development of the buds and retain water, hence the reason you dont need to add nutes. i use soiless soil and with a tea(i water everday co2 all that jazz) i wont have to add nutes for a week if i choose. and these girls can be heavy eaters too. organic give you a time buffer use it. chemical nute when they run out they run out organic can get you a long ways, teas can get you a fair distance. no need to feed

So my microbes must be in really bad shape, because I toned down the feeding at the start of week 7, and quit feeding at the start of week 8, and now half way into week 8 im seeing a LOT of yellow leafs. Only a few days till harvest so im just going to let them use up all the nutes in the leafs and get real yellow in hopes of a real nice smooth smoke

Anyways, im pretty surprised by how quick my plants started to yellow up if id known I prolly wouldnt have started fading out the nutes quite so soon. Or maybe it was the right thing to do and ill benefit from having the long flush, we will see!

im a firm believer of having drain holes in pots but only putting enough water in so it doesnt come out of the holes but still gets soil/roots nice and wet for about 4 to 5 waters then the 6th water you just give it double the usual amount so that it does drain. Organics makes product taste better but you must get chlorophyll out of budsites and suck backed to stems, which you do by giving it tap water that has been boiled bcuz tap has chlorine in it and i dont like to smoke chlorine and then the plant is forced to use its stored nutrients which has no smell buz its already been placed into fan leaves and tiny amount in sugar leaf which can easily be removed "chlorpohyll" back into the stem in drying/curing stage. I give it boiled tap water for 7 to 8 of the last days and this has worked for me. I get my knowledge from jorge cervantes most of the time check him out!

What you're most probably seeing (this close to harvest) is plant senescence. the plant is nearing the end of it's pre-programmed life-cycle. Cannabis IS an annual.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_senescence

TheNaturalist said:

So my microbes must be in really bad shape, because I toned down the feeding at the start of week 7, and quit feeding at the start of week 8, and now half way into week 8 im seeing a LOT of yellow leafs. Only a few days till harvest so im just going to let them use up all the nutes in the leafs and get real yellow in hopes of a real nice smooth smoke

Anyways, im pretty surprised by how quick my plants started to yellow up if id known I prolly wouldnt have started fading out the nutes quite so soon. Or maybe it was the right thing to do and ill benefit from having the long flush, we will see!

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Yeah senescence is a good thing if you are growing for quality. Your buds taste more complex and burn smoother when the chlorophyll that makes plants green is canna-bilized during the 'flush' when no nutes are offered. Flushing to me is a hydro thing, in living organics a nutrient taper at the end is just finishing them off right IMO. Its GOOD to see the fall colors!

Dank Raptor whats the thought on letting your oil crop stay green to the end? Won't your oil taste better if you finish them with a tapered off nutrient like your smoke?

well the only reason I fed until the end is to get a little more out of them. I no longer have an oil crop because the area is now being used for breeding. It may have tasted better with a flush yes but too little of a difference to matter when taking dabs of oil.

blueJ said:

check my pics i just put in the vegan sticky, i grow in 5gal buckets or big tubs, no drainage, just a 1 or 2 inch layer of perlite on the bottom, the plants flush themselves, so to speak, by eating everything in there with just plain water used the last watering, or two waterings if i can. I started growing with no drainage after reading a thread on OG from 3LB's and i haven't looked back since, i LOVE not having to deal with water runnoff!

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no drainage holes? you get root rot often?

Corbat420 said:

i feed with 50% Super tea (strong, personal mix) 50% water mix all the way untill harvest.

the plants taste better, have more trich's, get me higher..... and if your doing it right there are no salts anyways...

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It is far easier to taste chemicals with a clean pipe the a vape

From an administrator at Sensi Seeds

"Advanced - Flushing

A critical look at preharvest flushing

Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.

The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.

Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:

A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.

http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html

http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf

The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.

http://acd.ucar.edu/~eholland/encyc6.html

Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

http://www.sidwell.edu

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.

http://www.sirinet.net

Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.

http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu

Storage organelles:

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.

http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf

Translocation:

Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.


Summary:

Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."