Does THC oxidize/degrades to CBN after harvest?
- Thread starter Saitek
- Start date
1blazeking
Member
Over time it does but especially if kept in direct sunlight or in heat or other poor conditions. The best way to get CBN (the eye sag, sleep inducing stoney drowsy stone) is to harvest late with mostly amber trichs. The best way to minimize the CBN is obviously harvesting at peak or earlier and keeping your bud in glass jars in a cool dark spot.
k0ijn
Scientia Cannabis
CBN does not produce the couch-lock high.
CBN produces a sickly ill feeling and it represents a loss of potency of 90-260%.
Every plant should be grown to maximum cloudy trichomes while minimizing clear and amber trichomes.
Clear, because they contain pre-cursor cannabinoids. Amber, because they represent a huge loss of potency.
@ OP:
Yes, and as blaze pointed out you will see a much larger degradation if you expose the weed to sunlight, light in general, heat, high humidity & moisture.
What determines whether you get an energetic high or a couch-lock high is the phenotype; Sativa v. Indica.
A pure Indica plant grown out fully will deliver a couch-lock high.
A pure Sativa will deliver an energetic high.
A hybrid can bring the best of both worlds.
1blazeking
Member
Not true man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUtxQt0ged8
http://www.sclabs.com/education/the-cannabinoids.html
I've never had a "sickly ill" feeling with weed. I don't know what kind of weed that gives that effect besides smoking males.
k0ijn
Scientia Cannabis
I haven't heard about sclabs before but I can tell already by the statement of "CBN is psychoactive and it's what gives most the sedative effect" that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Most cannabinoids have a sedative effect, the main contributor of the sedative effect is not CBN, it's CBG (sleep inducing) and CBC (sedative effect).
And he doesn't even mention how CBN is only mildly psychoactive.
CBN is 90-260% less psychoactive than THC. There is a debate whether it's 90% or 260% but it's somewhere between those two figures.
If you smoke CBN ridden trichomes (most noticeable in hash made from such trichomes) you will notice the sickly ill feeling.
It's not a true high like a THC high.
The reason why you haven't had the full effect of CBN is because nobody lets all of their THC degrade, thus leaving behind only a degraded product.
If you were to leave the weed out in sunlight or in a heated/high RH room for an extended period you would end up with such a product.
And in any case, whether you've felt the full effect of CBN or not does not make any difference to the scientific research.
You can read up on it if you want to, what I've written here (and before in many other cannabinoid discussions) references;
Trends in Pharmacological Sciences Volume 30, issue 10 (scientific publication) - Marijuana Chemistry: Genetics, Processing And Potency (scientific university book) & scientific research done by Montana Biotech among other biotech companies.
I'll give you this though;
CBN does alter a THC high, but in a negative way, since it "removes" potency.
CBN is a good way of determining the age of the medicine, and it is pain relieving (like CBC, THC & CBD is) but it's not the cannabinoid which "controls" the couch-lock stone.
1blazeking
Member
I agree it doesn't control the couch lock stone but it certainly makes the smoke more sleepy/drowsy. I've smoked weed that was clear trichs, milky trichs and amber trichs and the amber didn't make me sick, it made me drowsy, sleepy and hella stoned.
Just doing a google search on CBN and stoned drowsy or sedative and you'll have massive results. From nearly everything I've read, as the THC degrades into CBN such as the milky trichs turning to amber as you wait to harvest, it makes for a more sedative high. That's what I've experienced also.
k0ijn
Scientia Cannabis
Posting links to youtube videos and/or googling results for a well known, repeated incorrect theory doesn't prove anything.
I know a lot of people think the couch lock stone is from CBN, it doesn't make it correct though.
A lot of people also think that flushing is needed to "get nutrients out of the calyxes/flowers" so it can improve harshness/taste/ash etc.
The fact that a lot of people believe in incorrect theories doesn't grant any validity to these theories.
It's a misunderstanding that CBN delivers a drowsy stone which has been around for quite some time, people have even made guides and images/videos which perpetuate the innate "truth" of the statement.
You can find anything you want on the internet, I would say about 70% of the information posted about cannabis on the internet is incorrect, unsubstantiated, filled with fallacies or simply pure fiction.
You should always trust science over personal opinions.
Not one website which has posted information on CBN being the couch-lock cannabinoid references any scientific research.
No scientific books or publications are referenced.
That alone should tell you all you need to know; they're making shit up.
They can't find any research which supports their theory/theories.
You could try to grow a pure Sativa while maximizing cloudy trichomes and minimizing clear & amber, and do the same with an Indica strain.
You will notice the difference in the highs. One is an energetic head high and the other is a couch-lock body stone.
Or you could just read the scientific publications I referenced.
1blazeking
Member
What I know is for me the amber trichs from the higher CBN creates a larger stone. The differences from sativa/indica are in the ratios of the cannabinoids. There are no mystery chemicals in indica which makes it couch lock compared to sativa. Indica has more CBD/CBN compared to sativas so naturally both grown out to majority amber trichs will still have a different high. It's in the ratios. If you can post links to scientific papers saying that amber trichs, harvesting late or high CBN does only makes you sick, then lets see it. I've never had that experience at all. We know THC breaks down into CBN as it oxidizes, as the plant ages. There are huge amounts of links of people supporting the idea that waiting late to harvest makes for a more drowsy, sleepy, stoned bud. Yes the THC potency is obviously reduced from the breakdown, but the high changes to a stone, it doesn't make you sickly. If that were the case, I'd be sick all the time with what I smoke at night.
And I'm not sure about calling companies that test for chemicals in marijuana dumb or ignorant about the chemicals in marijuana. It seems to me like they would know what they are talking about since that's their profession.
k0ijn
Scientia Cannabis
I just watched a bit more of the video and he went on to say that the weak interaction between the receptors and the CBN accounts for the sleepy effect.
Which is utter nonsense.
The weak interaction accounts for the reduction in psychoactivity.
The reason why CBN is less psychoactive than THC is because the interaction between the CBN and the receptors in the brain is a lot weaker than the THC interaction on those receptors.
I mean this guy is just making stuff up on the spot.
I only watched 1 minute of the video before so I just noticed this, it's laughable tbh.
I even forgot to write a sentence about your assumption that when cloudy trichomes turn amber it's supposedly THC degrading into CBN, the sign for harvest.
Nobody knows this.
There haven't been studies on this, not proper scientific research anyway.
It's possible, but it's also possible that it signals the change in THCA or THC at some other state in their evolution if you will.
Which is utter nonsense.
The weak interaction accounts for the reduction in psychoactivity.
The reason why CBN is less psychoactive than THC is because the interaction between the CBN and the receptors in the brain is a lot weaker than the THC interaction on those receptors.
I mean this guy is just making stuff up on the spot.
I only watched 1 minute of the video before so I just noticed this, it's laughable tbh.
I even forgot to write a sentence about your assumption that when cloudy trichomes turn amber it's supposedly THC degrading into CBN, the sign for harvest.
Nobody knows this.
There haven't been studies on this, not proper scientific research anyway.
It's possible, but it's also possible that it signals the change in THCA or THC at some other state in their evolution if you will.
1blazeking
Member
If you have scientific papers that tell what happens when trichs turn to amber then post them. I've always read and figured that it was THC degrading into CBN, reducing the potency of the THC while increasing the stone effects. Not being an ass, just trying to find out for sure. Obviously some chemical changes occur because the highs change. Unless you're trying to say that the highs don't change? In that case you've lost me because I've smoked the same strain, same plant, some harvested early, some late and the change was obvious.
k0ijn
Scientia Cannabis
In essence, yes.
A lot of people believe unsubstantiated things.
The numbers who believe or don't believe something speaks nothing to the truth of the matter.
Oh the differences are the ratios?
Well that explains everything.
No mystery chemicals? Who mentioned mystery chemicals? This is starting to turn into complete and utter speculation & irrelevant statements from you.
Indica has more CBN? CBN is the degradative product of THC, it's not more so present in Sativa or Indica, it's present based on how the plant is grown, for how long it's flowered and/or for how long it's stored (and how well; exposure to light = more CBN).
I mean you're just making stuff up now, there's no real discussion here.
I already posted references to scientific publications (papers as you call them), go ahead, google it, go to the library and check out the book.
Go and read the Pharmacological Trends in Science.
Why are you asking for something I already provided?
Let me clarify that those publications will not state outright that "amber trichs, harvesting late or high CBN does only makes you sick".
Nobody would ever write that in a scientific publication.
What they do explain is how CBN reacts with other cannabinoids, how it's formed, why it degrades, what potency it has, what other properties it has and that (in the case of the online publication) research has shown that it produces an ill feeling, sort of like being sick.
And one more thing, no the THC is not reduced from the "breakdown" (degradation) into CBN.
CBN _is_ less potent than THC, it's not the decarboxylation itself which reduces the potency..
There are so many incorrect assumptions that I will have to call it a night, it's simply staggering to me.
1blazeking
Member
I think I found what you're talking about but its 40$ to see the publication
http://montanabiotech.com/cannabinoid-facts-thc-cbd-cbn-cbc-thcv-cbg/
http://montanabiotech.com/cannabinoid-facts-thc-cbd-cbn-cbc-thcv-cbg/
1blazeking
Member
First you say the THC>CBN may not be what the amber trichs are, now you say the CBN amount is based on how long its flowered. Again, going to the point that more CBN is potentially the reason for the harder stone. You stated my links are bad yet provide no links of your own or quotes from papers or anything. If the paper you gave the name of (yet no quotes from it) says it makes you have a sick feeling, then provide a quote from the paper. I've never had a sick feeling from weed. Obviously chemicals changes occur from peak harvest to late harvest. Late harvest is more of a stone. Maybe it's a different chemical, but I think its always been assumed its CBN. If that paper proves me wrong, I'd love to see it but I'm not going out of my way to find it because it doesn't matter to me. I know late harvested indica bud is good sleep medication.
k0ijn
Scientia Cannabis
Books and publications costs money.
I corrected your assumption that the change of cloudy to amber is when THC degrades into CBN.
There is no scientific evidence that this is exactly when it happens, we simply don't know.
Don't try to make it seem as if I contradicted myself, you are taking my words out of context.
You edited out a part of the sentence I wrote and distilled it down to out of context statements.
What I wrote (which you so cleverly edited out) was that the amount of CBN present is dependant on how long you flower the plant and/or how well you store the product.
That is what I wrote.
If you flower a plant for 4 months you will end up with more CBN than if you flower for 2 months, since decarboxylation will have more time to take place and more trichomes will have time to develop.
Same with storing, if you store for a long time, or you store the product badly, you will end up with more CBN.
That does not mean that CBN is the reason for a harder stone, those two statements have nothing to do with each other, except in your head and in your assumptions.
You posted a link to a youtube video and some obscure website about a company with "experts", when in fact if you check the video you see how amateurish it is, and the website has no links to any scientific credible information, or mentions of any educated scientists on the pay roll of that company.
... I cannot link to a physical book, nor can I link to a publication which has been worked out by professional, educated scientists.
These things costs money, like most books in the real world.
If you go to a library, you can possibly find the information there, free of cost, but yes; books costs money, how is that news to you?
I don't have to provide you with anything which puts me in a bad light with the authors.
I don't want to provide you with copyrighted material simply because you're too lazy to go to a library or to read proper information instead of obscure websites and watching youtube videos.
And now you changed your viewpoint to "late harvested indica bud is good sleep medication".
That's not at all what you said before. You just slipped Indica into that statement.
You're contradicting yourself again.
Before you said that CBN is the cause of the couch-lock stone. Therefore a late grown Sativa should also deliver a couch-lock stone.
Now however you changed your mind and put Indica into that statement, you're going in circles and contradicting yourself man.
I cannot quote the books before I don't have them infront of me right now, nor do I own a scanner so I can prove it to you.
But what I can do is refer you to the original work, the books, and urge you to read them if you want to educate yourself.
I can however link to a point of mine:
http://ncpic.org.au/ncpic/publications/research-briefs/article/cannabinoids-1
That quote is from referenced scientific research (you can find the full reference list on that website I provided).
What the guy in the video you posted fails to mention is that CBN is only mildly psychoactive (as I put it) (or as the scientists put it; very weakly psychotropic).
The guy in the video also fails to mention that this translated into a loss of potency.
The loss of potency is debated and argued about but it's somewhere between 90%-260%, CBN is not the factor which makes weed couch-lock.
CBN attenuates THCs effect(s), it does not account for the couch-lock stone.
The guy who apparently knows it all, in the video you posted, completely fails to take these points into regards.
These are well known scientific facts, he's supposed to be a "scientist", dressed in a lab coat, sat in a CGI (blue screen) lab talking about how certain cannabinoids form.
I'm sorry, but he's talking out of his arse.
He's wrong about how the weak interaction between the CB1 & CB2 receptors in the brain account for the sleepyness of CBN.
The weak interaction is why CBN is much less psychoactive.
And he completely fails to mention important points on CBN, he does not know what he is talking about.
Making a youtube video and owning a (poorly made and referenced) website doesn't make your statements true.
My point here is that if the "expert" from the youtube video doesn't even know these things, how can you possibly trust him on what he says about CBN.
I've just proven that he lies/doesn't know what he's talking about, yet you still cling on to the information he provides as if it's a universal truth.
The amount of fallacies and illogical statements there are made in the youtube video alone should be enough to let anyone know that it's complete and utter bullshit.
But if you choose to believe personal opinion over scientific information, then by all means go ahead and do so.
You can believe anything you want to.
But don't try to spread false information here and claim it's innately true or scientific.
colonuggs
Well-Known Member
Returning to the more orthodox version of the cannabinoid biosynthesis, the role of ultraviolet light should be reemphasized. It seems apparent that ultraviolet light, normally supplied in abundance by sunlight, takes part in the conversion of CBD acid to THC acids. Therefore, the lack of ultraviolet light in indoor growing situations could account for the limited psychoactivity of Cannabis grown under artificial lights.
Light energy has been collected and utilized by the plant in a long series of reactions resulting in the formation of THC acids. Farther along the pathway begins the formation of degradation products not metabolically produced by the living plant.
These cannabinoid acids are formed through the progressive degradation of THC acids to CBN acid (cannabinolic acid) and other cannabinoid acids.
"The degradation is accomplished primarily by heat and light and is not enzymatically controlled by the plant."
CBN is also suspected of synergistic modification of the psychoactivity of the primary cannabinoids, THCs. The cannabinoid balance between CBC, CBD, THC, and CBN is determined by genetics and maturation.
THC production is an ongoing process as long as the glandular trichome remains active.
Variations in the level of THC in the same trichome as it matures are the result of THC acid being broken down to CBN acid while CBD acid is being converted to THC acid.
If the rate of THC biosynthesis exceeds the rate of THC breakdown, the THC level in the trichome rises; if the breakdown rate is faster than the rate of biosynthesis, the THC level drops.
Clear or slightly amber transparent resin is a sign that the glandular trichome is still active. As soon as resin secretion begins to slow, the resins will usually polymerize and harden. During the late floral stages the resin tends to darken to a transparent amber color.
If it begins to deteriorate, it first turns translucent and then opaque brown or white. Near-freezing temperatures during maturation will often result in opaque white resins. During active secretion, THC acids are constantly being formed from CBD acid and breaking down into CBN acid. “
Light energy has been collected and utilized by the plant in a long series of reactions resulting in the formation of THC acids. Farther along the pathway begins the formation of degradation products not metabolically produced by the living plant.
These cannabinoid acids are formed through the progressive degradation of THC acids to CBN acid (cannabinolic acid) and other cannabinoid acids.
"The degradation is accomplished primarily by heat and light and is not enzymatically controlled by the plant."
CBN is also suspected of synergistic modification of the psychoactivity of the primary cannabinoids, THCs. The cannabinoid balance between CBC, CBD, THC, and CBN is determined by genetics and maturation.
THC production is an ongoing process as long as the glandular trichome remains active.
Variations in the level of THC in the same trichome as it matures are the result of THC acid being broken down to CBN acid while CBD acid is being converted to THC acid.
If the rate of THC biosynthesis exceeds the rate of THC breakdown, the THC level in the trichome rises; if the breakdown rate is faster than the rate of biosynthesis, the THC level drops.
Clear or slightly amber transparent resin is a sign that the glandular trichome is still active. As soon as resin secretion begins to slow, the resins will usually polymerize and harden. During the late floral stages the resin tends to darken to a transparent amber color.
If it begins to deteriorate, it first turns translucent and then opaque brown or white. Near-freezing temperatures during maturation will often result in opaque white resins. During active secretion, THC acids are constantly being formed from CBD acid and breaking down into CBN acid. “
ataxia
Well-Known Member
i gotta check out what k0 is talking about ... i wan't to disagree, but i haven't read through thoroughly yet. If what you're saying is true ..... some of us gotsta get some more edumacation on our cannabinoid.... all i saw was how k0 originally said it contributes to a "sickly feeling" and then go on to say it has no real value ...... DIDN'T read through yet brothas and sistas .... hold your horses.
in any even rep k0 for doing your homework.
in any even rep k0 for doing your homework.
k0ijn
Scientia Cannabis
While I agree with most of what you say, some of the pathways of cannabinoid formation you mention are incorrect.
THCA (THC acids as you put it) is not formed from CBDA.
THCA is formed from CBGA, CBDA is also formed from CBGA, as is CBCA.
CBGA (Cannabigerolic acid) is the precursor to most other cannabinoids.
It goes: Geranyl phosphate --> Olivetolic acid --> Cannabigerolic acid --> [THCA / CBCA / CBDA]
VTMi'kmaq
Well-Known Member
I gotta laugh when anyone argue's with you k, since ive joined here ive seen nothing but concise on point knowledge and advice. really nice, talk about being part of the solution here.