DoJ Official Fired For Calling Waterboarding Torture

Wavels

Wavels

Well-Known Member
Med I think you are incorrect in stating….” they have in fact killed a few by going too far" Do you have any evidence to support this statement? Please share it.
And to my way of thinking your faith in no possible victory is most revealing…it seems to me that you find the very concept of victory unacceptable and unimaginable….woweee!

Hi clekstro, thanks for your thoughtful response.
In an idealized world there would be no need for coercion or "torture", However IMO this will never be the case. I am also referencing the entire spectrum of human history, certainly not only the middle ages, there is no period in human history in which “torture” was not employed with great vigor and (in most cases) glee!
Whatever you may think about waterboarding, I suspect that you would agree that it is the most benign form of “torture” as yet devised.

Here is the opinion of a guy who has actually endured waterboarding.
He also disagrees with you!:joint:



Waterboarding became a controversial issue during the recent confirmation hearing of former Judge Michael Mukasey.
I was waterboarded in 1987, as part of my simulated POW experience during Navy pilot training.
Based on my experience, I believe Mukasey is correct in declining to commit to a prohibition on waterboarding under any circumstances.
I respect Sen. John McCain's contrary opinion, but I believe waterboarding is a workable way to quickly obtain valuable intelligence from high-profile combatants detained by U.S. forces.

excerpted from:
Tightly regulated, technique could provide crucial intel | www.tucsoncitizen.com ®
 
Chrisuperfly

Chrisuperfly

Well-Known Member
Anyone that goes through S.E.R.E. school, whether its pilots or aircrew, in the military get waterboarded.....among other things. I went through it up in Brunswick, Maine.....in February.....it sucked lol.
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
Med I think you are incorrect in stating….” they have in fact killed a few by going too far" Do you have any evidence to support this statement? Please share it.
And to my way of thinking your faith in no possible victory is most revealing…it seems to me that you find the very concept of victory unacceptable and unimaginable….woweee!


I believe they would cover this up real quick. I just cant believe they would care if some nondiscript detainee died. There are hundreds that have dissapeared from site with no aknowledgement by the defense dept. Do you think some of these may have died in captivity by various means of torture? I do. And Again I ask. What does Victory in Iraq look like? There have been in excess by some accounts 600,000+ deaths, and no political solution in sight. If you mean victory is in securing the oil for American corporations and paying the criminal war contractors exhorbitant amounts of taxpayer dollars, while sacrificing 4,000+ american lives and 25,000+ Severely wounded, I think your perception is warped.
 
C

clekstro

Well-Known Member
Wavels said:
Med I think you are incorrect in stating….” they have in fact killed a few by going too far" Do you have any evidence to support this statement? Please share it.
And to my way of thinking your faith in no possible victory is most revealing…it seems to me that you find the very concept of victory unacceptable and unimaginable….woweee!

Hi clekstro, thanks for your thoughtful response.
In an idealized world there would be no need for coercion or "torture", However IMO this will never be the case. I am also referencing the entire spectrum of human history, certainly not only the middle ages, there is no period in human history in which “torture” was not employed with great vigor and (in most cases) glee!
Whatever you may think about waterboarding, I suspect that you would agree that it is the most benign form of “torture” as yet devised.

Here is the opinion of a guy who has actually endured waterboarding.
He also disagrees with you!:joint:



Waterboarding became a controversial issue during the recent confirmation hearing of former Judge Michael Mukasey.
I was waterboarded in 1987, as part of my simulated POW experience during Navy pilot training.
Based on my experience, I believe Mukasey is correct in declining to commit to a prohibition on waterboarding under any circumstances.
I respect Sen. John McCain's contrary opinion, but I believe waterboarding is a workable way to quickly obtain valuable intelligence from high-profile combatants detained by U.S. forces.

excerpted from:
Tightly regulated, technique could provide crucial intel | www.tucsoncitizen.com ®
Click to expand...
The title of this forum is dedicated to a man who agrees with me and was not just saying it was okay to get a job.

How about you respond to this argument, which you still haven't touched: it's wrong. And it's illegal.
 
Wavels

Wavels

Well-Known Member
Lots of things are “illegal” nationally or internationally that I disagree with. There are legal experts on both sides of this debate in the US; I am not a lawyer so…..the moral question is the one I feel more comfortable addressing.
Of course I think that waterboarding is a valuable technique that is most definitely NOT morally wrong.
It is morally wrong to pretend that the world is something other than what it is, always has been, and always will be…a brutal nasty violent reality which no human can escape until death. The confrontation of external threats to one’s existence or way of life must be accomplished rapidly and vigorously….this is THE moral imperative. Self preservation is a strong instinct for a good reason. Waterboarding provides a good means by which to obtain information in order to preserve human life.
Our difference of opinion boils down to radically different world views, our perceptions of reality are irreconcilable.
However, we both have a demonstrable fondness for ganja, too bad we can’t fog it up and smoke a few bowls and work this out!!!
:joint:
 
7xstall

7xstall

Well-Known Member
there is no moral warfare, war is the ultimate collapse of morality.

if part of your war efforts include sending 85 grains of copper coated lead, traveling at 3300 feet per second (m16 bullets) into a man's arm, then what is so bad about pouring some water on his face?

if part of the war includes dropping 2500 lbs of high-explosive onto a house and vaporizing the occupants while de-limbing and severely burning passers by, then what is so bad about having a man stand naked in a room with loud music and the AC set to 55 degrees?

all of you who are opposed to the war need to stop being so easily blinded with these useless details. this is a non-issue, this is anti-US propaganda. torture goes hand in hand with war; war is fast paced torture on an assembly line. let's focus on ending the war and using our resources on something that matters.






.
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
7xstall said:
there is no moral warfare, war is the ultimate collapse of morality.

if part of your war efforts include sending 85 grains of copper coated lead, traveling at 3300 feet per second (m16 bullets) into a man's arm, then what is so bad about pouring some water on his face?

if part of the war includes dropping 2500 lbs of high-explosive onto a house and vaporizing the occupants while de-limbing and severely burning passers by, then what is so bad about having a man stand naked in a room with loud music and the AC set to 55 degrees?

all of you who are opposed to the war need to stop being so easily blinded with these useless details. this is a non-issue, this is anti-US propaganda. torture goes hand in hand with war; war is fast paced torture on an assembly line. let's focus on ending the war and using our resources on something that matters.






.
Click to expand...
War is unconscionable. Torture is outlawed by the geneva convention and waterboarding is considered torture. IE waterboarding is illegal and unconscionable. To say that since we are at war, torture is OK is Bullshit. Yes unspeakable things happen in war, but we are supposed to set the bar in conduct so our own soldiers if captured, don't get tortured. Have we sunk so low as to use Nazi tactics on our enemies. I maintain that everyone that sanctions waterboarding should be waterboarded to within an inch of their lives. Torture has proven that a victim will tell you whatever you want to hear to stop the torture, so it is an invalid method of getting knowledge.
 
Chrisuperfly

Chrisuperfly

Well-Known Member
The unfortunate thing is we go to war with people that do not recognize the Geneva Convention. I say, when in Rome....
 
GrowRebel

GrowRebel

Well-Known Member
ViRedd said:
Yes, war is unconscionable ... but sometimes necessary.

Vi
Click to expand...
... while other times completely unnecessary, immoral, and illegal ... like now ...


Wavels said:
Med I think you are incorrect in stating….” they have in fact killed a few by going too far" Do you have any evidence to support this statement? Please share it.
Click to expand...
Here's a little help med ...

[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/08/international/asia/08bagram.html?adxnnl=1&emc=eta1&adxnnlx=1136897491-EP LStsFs8RACnn13r6v4A"]Case Dropped Against U.S. Officer in Beating Deaths of Afghan Inmates[/URL]

U.S. Operatives Killed Detainees During Interrogations in Afghanistan and Iraq

Almost 100 prisoners have died in US custody in Iraq and Afghanistan since August 2002,


The facts are out there ... one only need look, some people don't care for facts though ... :roll:
 
C

clekstro

Well-Known Member
I remember Stalin saying: "One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic."
And then 7x rocks my mind with a reverse Stalin, pow!$&: if we're killing close to a million people in Iraq, why shouldn't we torture?

As that is, I'm sure, a crass summarization of your point, I'll even give you what you want to say: stop pointing out the minutiae, there's a war going on, goddammit!!!

Yeah, I'm against that, too.

PS: Vi's back-- and he brought a cliche!!!:mrgreen:
 
Your Grandfather

Your Grandfather

Well-Known Member
Wavels said:
Waterboarding is certainly not torture if one considers the historical meaning and application of true torture.
But the left simply loves to redefine words to suit their smear campaigns, in order to advance its wacky, nonsensical agenda.
Wavels

Excerpts below from
[FONT=times new roman,times]American Thinker: The 'Torture' Fraud of the Left[/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]"Torture" is probably the most egregious of these cases. That's the explanation for the sneer quotes. Because, quite simply, in much of the debate over "torture", we're not talking about actual torture at all. We're talking about rough treatment, harshness, or coercion. [/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]The American left has defined these upward until they mean the same thing as torture, all as a part of their efforts to undermine the War on Terror in general. The core of this stance is the assertion that a slap on the head, several days without sleep, or hearing Rage Against the Machine played at full volume is fully the equivalent of torture in the classic sense. (Well... maybe we should reconsider that last....)[/FONT]
:joint:
Click to expand...
Would Jesus waterboard? Would you waterboard_drown_your plants? We_The US_put people in jail for waterboarding_WWII. Is it ok, because we are doing it? Come on, smoke some weed and stop drinking the neo-con kool-aid.
 
oneyearorange

oneyearorange

New Member
medicineman said:
Actually, mr. hole, views expressed on this site are supposed to be addressed as intelectually as possible. f you have no intellect, then I guess you can impinge away.
Click to expand...

this doesn't even make sense?? were does it state views are suppose to be expressed on this sight as intellectually as possible? Do you know what the definition of impinge even is? Oh and for some one so smart you spelled intellectually wrong.
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
oneyearorange said:
oh yeah medicinman your mothers a hole!
Click to expand...
~LOL~, spoken like a true asshole. Bringing one's deceased mother into a political discussion is just wrong. That shows the caliber of asshole you really are, Plus the lack of an intelligent response shows you are more of a masterbater than a debater
 
oneyearorange

oneyearorange

New Member
Yeah well its no worse than bringing one's "deceased" mother into it. What did you think you would be awarded pity points? Better to be an asshole than a over sensitive puss.
 
M

may

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
~LOL~, spoken like a true asshole. Bringing one's deceased mother into a political discussion is just wrong. That shows the caliber of asshole you really are, Plus the lack of an intelligent response shows you are more of a masterbater than a debater
Click to expand...
I must say that debating you is truly a form of masterbation.
 
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