DWC - the dreaded claw leaves ---help :(

please help..any insight is appreciated.

DWC in 5 gallon bucket - wk 7 flowering
usually ph is between 5.4-6.4
the top leaves have been really droopy and overall leaves seem like they are thin and scrawny is this a classic case of calcium deficiency?
I cant make it out if its calcium or magnesium issues.
I was planning on doing a week long flush with ph'd water and calmag.
How long do you think left till harvest?

It looks like water stress increase air supply to resivore. If there is something like 20L/m of air then possible root disease. If not, u mentioned calcium. I don't see symptoms of ca deficiency but if you squeeze a stem and its hollow its calcium. Probably just the lighting but it looks dark green leaves i mean. In natural light if the leaves are dark and clawed that's excessive nitrogen . As far as harvest the plant looks sativa dom and you have very premature floral formations. Uhh could be lookin at 7+ weeks as most sativa s take 12-14 weeks.

Can you show us a pic of the roots and the water in the bucket? What line of nuits are you running and are you using any kind of tea?

back off on the nitrogen,thats what causes the leaves to curl like that,and as far as harvest goes,shit like 8 weeks or so,hope this helps

plus thats y the big fan leaves r so green,flush her with som clean ph'd water a few times and u should be good to go

week 7 flower? looks like week 1 to me all i see is pistils no calyx or bud formation i would think about getting a real light instead of CFLs if you want real buds

Thanks all for the reply and sorry for the delayed response.
Its my first attempt at growing and I'm feeling like I am failing this beauty (cotton candy Kush)
Bud formation definitely seems premature for flowering week 8 into week 9

To answer some of your questions:

- root formation seems to be in tact with no rot.
- I perform weekly water changes: its a 5 Gallon DWC. Each water change I add Tiger bloom 2-3 teaspoons not more than that (thinking thats the only item that contains high N---thought it was the cause for the claw leaves--thanks Greencat for that suggestion)
-recently started to add 3 teaspoons of cal-mag to the mix (thinking the claws were potentially calcium def)
- Also add about 4-6 tablespoons of big bloom -often adding 2 more tablspoons in the middle of the week.
- constantly monitor ph levels at 5.5-6..2 tops (averaging around 5.
- temp always around 69-7 degrees.
- its on a 12/12 light cycle.
- water level in bucket is always about 5 inches below the netpot, letting the roots dangle.

Silentnvd you are right there is only pistils tons of them...not seeing any sort of true or rapid clustering indicating bud formation.
I'm going to try just flushing with PH'd only water for a week to see if that helps.
Should I completely stop tiger bloom and the big bloom or only tiger bloom...I'm surprised that its clawing as I'm not even adding the full recommended dose as prescribed by fox farm.

Just seems like its not growing as much as I thought it would, depressing.
Perhaps its the CFL's...I only have 3 on it at all times, and no fan as of yet.

She seems to have so much potential so I dont want to give up on her yet.

I'll see about adding the root and water pics.

thanks for taking the time to share your input, I'd appreciate any help to try and recover.

Greencat, been solely using fox farm tiger bloom consistently at 2 teaspoons only during water changes and 4-6 tablespoons of big bloom at the same time. Occassionally adding 2 more tbspoons once through the week.

Greencat when you say flush...do you mean only once weekly at reservoir changes or multiple changes throughout the week (basically one week compeletly without nutes, or more than one week)
Should I even be adding calmag at that time?

Is this your first grow? Why torture yourself and start out with hydro? Week seven in flower should have much better production as well, you need more light.
You are adding WAY to much fertilizer, that is the other problem. 4-6 tablespoons of anything is CRAZY, not to mention all the other bullshit you're adding.

http://foxfarmfertilizer.com/index.php/frontpage/feeding-schedules.html I don't believe in feeding schedules as all plants are different but even fox farms schedule is saying 4 TEASPOONS of big bloom max.... 4-6 tablespoons is killing that plant and to be honest I highly doubt it bounces back even by flushing it.

Thanks Plaguedog. You're right..first grow but learning from all these mistakes. Hard to give up when you started off with a pretty lady and then have gone this long.
The only thing that I can think of that would produce the N toxicity is FF tiger bloom...being that the ph levels are adequate for absorption.

If I were to begin flushing to save try and save the little lady, how long should I remain in a ph'd only flushed res? one week/ two weeks?
Isnt Big bloom a safe additive like a nutrient tea and non harmful in any amount?
As far as lights, how many more CFL's would be appropriate? Currently have 1 6500K, and 2 2600K bulbs on it.

It's not just N toxicity there, it's complete over fertilization. I think you would be better served getting a 150 HPS unit if your just growing one plant. And don't give up on hydro, just realize sometimes less is more. You can use CFL's to flower, but you will never get the output of an HID, unless you surround the plant with a whole lot of them and at that point your better off just spending the 70-90 bucks on the 150 w hps light. ( really I would get a minimum of a 250 w HPS, they aren't much more money and production will be better, and they don;t put off a whole hell of a lot of heat compared to surrounding the plant with 15 CFL's....)

Big Bloom is a full on nutrient, it's not a supplement. As far as flushing, I don;t know, to me I think you are beyond the point of return and the little amount of light you have won't increase production at this point in the plants life. Hate to tell you but it's probably time to start over, read up more on people that have grown successful DWC plants and follow some grows on here that are close to what you are trying to attempt in your environment.

heres an idea, try getting a PPM meter and check out your ppms. I found just measuring PPMs as i add things helped me realize what really goes on when your adding the nutrients, and helps you gauge how much you can give your plants.

with dyna gro, i max out at 800 PPMs (tap is 100 ppm) , which is a total of 5 ml/gal of protekt (silica) 5ml gal cal-mag +-5ml gal dyna gro 1-5ml gal humboldt honey hydro

Plaguedog you're right. CFL's were fantastic for the veg process. I assumed I can be cheap and get away with flowering too. After reading your posts, came home and started to realize that I might've just killed the plant. The stem itself seems week and unsupportive at this point. Darn...7-8 weeks for nothing. I'm probably just going to scrap this one. Though it does seem to have a ton of healthy looking premature pistils. Most leaves are dwindly and drying up. Dont think I can even save it at this point.
I'm going to take your advice and get the 250w HPS and Nizza's advice about PPM meter. I wasn't using this meter initially only relying on PH.

Thanks again for all your advice.
As a beginner, should I stick with DWC for hydro grows, try something else, or just go soil? I was afraid soil would just cause unwanted insects and slow growth, starting to realize that was probably a cheaper alternative with a lot less headches and monitoring of PH/ nutes.

I think new growers can succeed with DWC, but you need to read up on a few grow journals from guys that have done it right. I'm not a hydro guy by any means though, but from what you said you were feeding and just looking at the pictures made it pretty clear to me what the issues at hand were. And you are right, CFL's can do a fine job in the veg stage, I still use them myself, but you need more light for sure when you throw them into 12/12.

As for soil grows, as long as you keep the room clean, and use a decent mix bugs probably won't be an issue for your size of a grow. And soil doesn't cause slow growth, it might not be as fast as hydro, but it is forgiving. You make a mistake in hydro you can see first hand how fast it can go downhill from there.

Thanks a couple of last questions for this thread (and perhaps to you plaguedog).
You mentioned the 250 HPS lamps. Is there one in particular or a particular brand that you would recommend?
Would I have to worry about a lot of heat production from these if it were a small area closet grow with minimal ventilation and with only 1-2 plants?
In soil growths do you recommend a pre-mixed nutes added blend?
Lastly, is checking maintaining PH in soil based growth equally as important as in Hydro?

Plaguedog, thanks for taking the time to provide your insight and guidance- truly appreciated.

Again.

1. I'm not really brand loyal, really just about any 250 HPS system will do, a digital ballast will be a bit more money. (when I first started I rewired a couple of 150 HPS security lights under a cheap reflector bought from the home improvement store and they worked fine if money is an issue)
2. Yes they give off some heat, can you keep the closet open and get a small fan to keep the air moving across the light? That will help some. (A lot of CFL's will give off heat as well)
3. There are a number of proven mixes out there, LC's mixes has always been pretty noob friendly:
LC's Soiless Mix #2:
6 parts Pro Mix BX or HP / Sunshine Mix (any flavor from #1 up)
2 parts perlite
2 parts earthworm castings
Powdered dolomite lime @ 2 tablespoons per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of the soiless mix.
If you use a 3 qt. saucepan as “parts” in the amounts given above, it equals about 1 cu. ft. of soiless mix and you can just dump in a cup of powdered dolomite lime.

If you don;t have access to EWC, you can just use the Pro-Mix but you should definitely get the POWDERED dolomite lime (can usually find a 50lb bag at the home improvement stores for around 6-7 bucks, will last you a long time at 1-2 TBS per gallon of Pro-Mix)

The lime will help buffer the mix along with adding calcium and magnesium. pH shouldn't be a problem with a well buffered soiless mix like this depending on your water source. It looks like you use RO so I doubt it will be an issue.

You can use your Foxfarm line in this mix just fine, but don't over do it. Learn to give the plants what they need. Less is more. Look at the foxfarm soil feeding schedule and adjust from there.

The key to using a soiless mix like this is not to let them get so dry that the soil pulls away from the edge of the pots, if that happens you will have to slowly water from the top, or water from the bottom up. Contrary to popular pot forum myth, a complete wet/dry cycle is no good for peat based mixes, finding the sweet spot and keeping them moist throughout will give you the best results. This will come with time and experience and eventually you will be able to tell when they need water just by lifting the pot. When you have a well established plant with a healthy root system it's very hard to over water a vigorous growing plant.

Early on you need to watch the moisture on seedlings though, when they are not established over watering can be an issue.


It looks to me like you were pretty close with your DWC setup, just take it easy on the nutrients and get the PPM meter if you want to follow that route again. You'll notice a dramatic improvement with more light and the right feeding.

That's a lot of nutes and most sativas like very light feedings. Less is ALWAYS best. I believe that feeding schedule (4-6 tablespoons of Big Bloom/tsp Tiger Bloom) is for soil/soiless? Not to mention, the nutes will drop your ph dramatically.

Honestly, if you're just starting out, just get a bag of Promix or Sunshine mix or any decent medium. Pick up a simple base nute and some silica, and possibly some bennies and you'll find it much easier to grow some decent herb. You'll also learn a lot along the way. This is the easiest, most forgiving way for new growers to learn indoor skills.
You need to get rid of the urge of force feeding your plants with maximum feedings. They will only utilize what they need and they need adequate light in order to grow and process those nutes.