Exactly how have we been convinced
- Thread starter canndo
- Start date
Self interest can be a counter intuitive thing.
Consider, it would be in anyone's self interest to demand higher wages from an employer. Or at least it is pretty intuitive that it might be. But what happenes when the waged we demand gets so burdensome on the employer that they can no longer be competitive? They shut down and we all lose our jobs.
The true self interest of everyone is the vitality and health of the country. Getting as much as you can is harmful for those that have to give it to you.
Consider, it would be in anyone's self interest to demand higher wages from an employer. Or at least it is pretty intuitive that it might be. But what happenes when the waged we demand gets so burdensome on the employer that they can no longer be competitive? They shut down and we all lose our jobs.
The true self interest of everyone is the vitality and health of the country. Getting as much as you can is harmful for those that have to give it to you.
canndo
Well-Known Member
You a collectivist then? Which is it? Enlightened self interest or the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? In a real world, management, finding that it may place the company in jeopardy will deny your request for a raise. If the request is from a collective bargaining entity, then there is a contract. A contract is an agreement between two parties, not an edict.
canndo
Well-Known Member
Still couching everything in your hatred of government are you?
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
will you be the first to actually name even one single company who has had to shut down due to a minimum wage increase?
there is more to a product than price..there is quality, customer service etc.
increase to minimum wage is not necessarily connected.
Can either of you tell me where the fuck I mentioned minimum wage?
Minimum wage is for fucking losers. Nobody worth a fuck makes minimum wage.
Minimum wage workers typically do not have the required skills to enter into wage negotiations with their employer.
Some may, every once in a while ask for a raise. But they don't do much beyond that. When you ask for a raise, you need to do a few things. First, make sure you show up on time for a long time, second, make sure you are doing above average work, well above average. Get there early, stay a little later, become indispensable. Second, find some supporting evidence; compare you and what you do to a guy across town at a competitor, show how you are better than him, and then demonstrate how he is making more money.
Beyond just asking, wage negotiations are an art and science, and something most minimum wage workers are not capable of doing.
God Damn! Why do you guys worship at the feet of pathetic employees?
Someone spends their entire life fucking up, shirking off education and responsibility, the first time someone pisses them off they quit or do something out of spite and get fired, so they job hop and become transient employees. Then all of a sudden they realize they are an adult, with no stable work history and very little skills, and they suddenly deserve something special?
I have never met anyone working for under $10/hour (that wasn't zealously seeking better employment) that I would feel comfortable with letting them watch my dog.
If you are 30 years old, and your entire life's work has culminated in you only being qualified to do something that pays very fucking little you are a loser and you don't deserve anything beyond what you get.
The job doesn't exist to provide you with all you need and want. The job exists to provide the businesses customers with what they are asking for. Labor is a supply and demand market, and everyone makes what they are worth.
A contract is an agreement between two parties. That is brilliant of you to make that observation.
Here is the problem. Lets look at the big 3... A lot of these contracts from the 1950 and 1960's. Times were different then. The big 3 had no, or very little, foreign competition. They could afford exhorbited contracts for employee pensions and wages and benefits.
Fast forward to today. What percentage of the Big 3's total expense would you say is made up of benefits being paid out to retired employees or their widows?
Its fucking massive.
Because of that, they are at an enormous competitive disadvantage. And dozens of factories have closed down as a result. Those jobs are now in the south, or in another country.
So are those people really better off? Not in my way of thinking.
Now, one could argue that if they hadn't forced such a beneficial contract on them back then, that the Big 3 would have made to much money off of the backs of the workers, and yeah, profits would have been huge.
What about today? Do you remember when they tried to renegotiate the contracts to get some of that stuff take off? The unions went ape shit. They had to protect their members! So what happened? The union didn't relent, so the plant shut down and went to good ole Mexico.
In the mean time, the unions went from being pro worker, to being anti company. Ford, GM, and Chrysler have had to, in the past, battle massive amounts of sabotage from their workers.
You asked if I am a collectivist... No. But people need to be protected from greed. Including their own.
What did those union workers who forced their employers factory to Mexico really gain? Not a lot, if you ask me.
And of course, they are not entirely to blame. It isn't 100% on them. But some of it is.
But is management not free to deny the request from a collective bargaining entity? Or to retract one once given?
It doesn't matter here what I believe, or what you believe. The fact is we both believe something and come election day we will vote for the guy that gives us the most lip service. Then, we will both be disappointed, regardless of who wins.
And yes, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, but the rights of the individual, outweigh the desire of society.
canndo
Well-Known Member
Yet all the while, not a single of the top guys at these big three took much of a cut in pay. Why? because they made contracts with the company, and a contract is a contract. No renegotiating there.
Beyond that, you seem to think that the individual is responsible for the greater good, that is, if the individual asks for a raise it may cause the company to fold up and move their tent somewhere else.
But what about the company? Should the company, in the interest of the greater good of society remain where they are and not go out of the country? or are companies exempt from this notion that perhaps it would be in the interest of the individual to give up their personal interest for a greater interest that in the long run, includes their own?
Or is it only individuals? And is it also in the interest of stock holders to vote in ways that may cost them some money in the short run but benefit society in the long run?
canndo
Well-Known Member
Why is it that eventually every rightie when discussing the state of the country\'s employment situation winds up giving us some paternalistic instructional as to how to get ahead while they still manage to show some form of classism in the process?
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
aren't you 30 years old and working at subway for $8 an hour?
and isn't kynes about 50 years old and making only slightly more at target, as well as living with his mother?
But Kynes is all ours.
Canna Sylvan
Well-Known Member
I'm convinced. I'm convinced. Wait. I don't vote. Fuck!
This reminds me of this one guy who wanted me to sign a petition yesterday. I told him I don't vote, so it won't matter. He wanted to register me. Again, he was told. Finally I told him voting is a scam, that the choice is between two alternatives, both of which suck. He said, "You're stupid, you have to vote, how else is your voice heard?"
On the way out of the evil capitalist pig store he was complaining about, I waved my bag in front of him, "this is how I vote!" And gave him a, "what a fucking loser," look.
That guy doesn't care, he gets money when I waste my time signing, and he's using the same system he complains about!
This reminds me of this one guy who wanted me to sign a petition yesterday. I told him I don't vote, so it won't matter. He wanted to register me. Again, he was told. Finally I told him voting is a scam, that the choice is between two alternatives, both of which suck. He said, "You're stupid, you have to vote, how else is your voice heard?"
On the way out of the evil capitalist pig store he was complaining about, I waved my bag in front of him, "this is how I vote!" And gave him a, "what a fucking loser," look.
That guy doesn't care, he gets money when I waste my time signing, and he's using the same system he complains about!
Canna Sylvan
Well-Known Member
Life isn't that simple. It's a yin and yang thing. The yin has a yang dot, and the yang has a yin dot. Don't you even know what your avatar is?
joefoxx
Member
That's a good point. But if that logic is correct then it is always in any employer's interest to pay the lowest costs for the most labor. This is why labor unions still exist in the first place. Capitalism is not personal in itself. It's just a formula for profit but any fool knows the basic formula for profit is selling something for more than you paid for it.
Now there is great flexibility within that formula and many dynamics one could consider in creating profit, quality and customer service being two of many. The problem is that those "employers" you mentioned are the same basic human beings as their "employees" and that same "intuition to exploit" you were nibbling at works both ways. This leads us to why the government';s job is to "check and balance" the relationship between the two parties, except you can see how conflicted it is because the government suffers from the same fundamental paradox. The perfect form of modern democratic government, just as the perfect form of capitalism, and arguably the perfect form of the human body, suffers from the same flaw as any perfect machine; human error.
Furthermore, it's beyond reason how the unchecked ambition to hoard resources and rule over all has ever been considered tantamount to good sound leadership or any particular "moral fiber"; intelligence, honesty, fair judgement, the "best interest" or any interest at all in the "people" of any country.
Isn't it at least reasonable, and citable, that making it to a position of power tends to require a completely opposite skill set?
Isn't it fair to say that just as foreign competition has grown, so has the foreign market and as a result the "world market"?
The capitalist model and therefore the Free Market is now a global playing field, not so much in the 50's and 60's, and American companies cashed in big because they were first in line. Hell, they created the thing. Many household names, now sell more in foreign markets than they do domestically
and ohh I'm sure it really hurts a faceless board to send thousands of jobs overseas where the labor cost is literally a fraction, labor laws are non existent, and the quality is sometimes better. That's a lot of extra zeros to turn down in favor of patriotism, much less social decency. You think the Mitt Romney's care about the other 97% of the country that much hu? I think they were waiting for an excuse to make sweat shops legit again. These fools couldn't wait!!
"Basically, we'll just call the government(cough* president) UNPATRIOTIC so by default anything we do is the Real American thing to do." lol
Last I checked many of the top employers, not founders or creators mind you, but employers spend most their lives fucking up, stepping over education and shirking personal responsibility, so the first time the country pisses them off they shut down a few warehouses in America and move a couple hundred thousand "burdensome" jobs overseas. It's not personal. They did it on an iPhone from a private jet while they Island hop because they're transient citizens. They'll never have to realize the distinction between being an adult and being a corporation because they know they deserve everything that is special.
And these are the people(cough* corporations) you tout as having "true self interest of the vitality and health of the country"?? It's funny how multibillionaires paint on the "hardworking middle class business owner" makeup for the media... like Wolf of WallStreet funny.. Pure movie magic when middle class identifies with the 1% as if they have anything in common.
You say people need to be protected from their own greed but who protects people from the greed of their protectors? Keep in mind, I don't disagree with your point. Just wanted to shed some light on the other side of it.........................
................. Bong rips and coffee anyone?At one point during my 30th year I did work at subway for $8.50 an hour. But this wasn't the highest qualification of work I was capable of.
I was unemployable as a drug addict.
After I got clean at first I didn't trust myself with a pay check.
And after not having a job for nearly one year, you don't start out at a very high level.
I decided to go to work and wanted to start yesterday, that meant taking something crappy. I zealously sought out better employment.
I no longer work for $8.50 an hour.
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
Much of what you say is true and I can't find flaw in it. But I'll point out one thing that stuck out to me. You mentioned Mitt Romney, why?That's a good point. But if that logic is correct then it is always in any employer's interest to pay the lowest costs for the most labor. This is why labor unions still exist in the first place. Capitalism is not personal in itself. It's just a formula for profit but any fool knows the basic formula for profit is selling something for more than you paid for it.
Now there is great flexibility within that formula and many dynamics one could consider in creating profit, quality and customer service being two of many. The problem is that those "employers" you mentioned are the same basic human beings as their "employees" and that same "intuition to exploit" you were nibbling at works both ways. This leads us to why the government';s job is to "check and balance" the relationship between the two parties, except you can see how conflicted it is because the government suffers from the same fundamental paradox. The perfect form of modern democratic government, just as the perfect form of capitalism, and arguably the perfect form of the human body, suffers from the same flaw as any perfect machine; human error.
Furthermore, it's beyond reason how the unchecked ambition to hoard resources and rule over all has ever been considered tantamount to good sound leadership or any particular "moral fiber"; intelligence, honesty, fair judgement, the "best interest" or any interest at all in the "people" of any country.
Isn't it at least reasonable, and citable, that making it to a position of power tends to require a completely opposite skill set?
Isn't it fair to say that just as foreign competition has grown, so has the foreign market and as a result the "world market"?
The capitalist model and therefore the Free Market is now a global playing field, not so much in the 50's and 60's, and American companies cashed in big because they were first in line. Hell, they created the thing. Many household names, now sell more in foreign markets than they do domestically
and ohh I'm sure it really hurts a faceless board to send thousands of jobs overseas where the labor cost is literally a fraction, labor laws are non existent, and the quality is sometimes better. That's a lot of extra zeros to turn down in favor of patriotism, much less social decency. You think the Mitt Romney's care about the other 97% of the country that much hu? I think they were waiting for an excuse to make sweat shops legit again. These fools couldn't wait!
"Basically, we'll just call the government(cough* president) UNPATRIOTIC so by default anything we do is the Real American thing to do." lol
Last I checked many of the top employers, not founders or creators mind you, but employers spend most their lives fucking up, stepping over education and shirking personal responsibility, so the first time the country pisses them off they shut down a few warehouses in America and move a couple hundred thousand "burdensome" jobs overseas. It's not personal. They did it on an iPhone from a private jet while they Island hop because they're transient citizens. They'll never have to realize the distinction between being an adult and being a corporation because they know they deserve everything that is special.
And these are the people(cough* corporations) you tout as having "true self interest of the vitality and health of the country"?? It's funny how multibillionaires paint on the "hardworking middle class business owner" makeup for the media... like Wolf of WallStreet funny.. Pure movie magic when middle class identifies with the 1% as if they have anything in common.
You say people need to be protected from their own greed but who protects people from the greed of their protectors? Keep in mind, I don't disagree with your point. Just wanted to shed some light on the other side of it.........................
You expressed doubt as to if he gave a shit about any of us. Of course he does, about as much as anyone else outside your immediate sphere of family, friends, coworkers, and acquaintances do. You think it is because he is rich. It's not, it's because he is removed from you.
You ever hear a story in the news about someone you never heard of getting killed in a car wreck, or stabbed to death or something and just burst out into tears? I'll assume not, why not? Is it because you don't care? They have a parent, spouse, sibling or child that is inconsolable at that moment, but you may change the station in the middle of the story and laugh as you think about something crazy Carl did at work that day. Happens to me all the time.
No one truly cares about you except the people you are close to. Why should we expect a politician to? That is the biggest lie they need to sell, that they care about you; Democrats and Republicans, because neither does.
People really dont act in what is truly their best interest, but what they have an immediate desire to do.
Think of this... Recently someone tried to recruit me into some sort of multi level marketing thing. In had to pay $150 to join, find two others to do the same, which each of them had to do. We each then had to buy $100 worth of gold or silver (which really isn't that bad considering buying gold and silver isn't like buying pretty much other goods, in that second hand value isn't any less than what you pay for it) each week and after 12 weeks you would be pulling in $6k per week.
It worked, it was math, he showed me on my desk.
And its true, if everyone had the numbers found the people and bought the metal, you'd be making thousands of dollars a week in no time.
There is only one problem, the odds of that are astronomically small. It would be in everyone's best interest to do it. You are really only out the 150 to join, the gold you bought is always going to be worth a lot of money, its not like a used exercise machine. But people don't do shit like that.
In short, everyone's best interest is the well being of the country, a rising tide lifts all boats. But no one acts in that interest. Everyone perceives their self interest to be immediate gratification, which is often not in their ultimate best interest.
Oh you think because I said what I said, and I worked the job at subway I'm being a hypocrite?
Well, ok. Lets talk about that. A heroin addict, family stealing, shoplifting, Minimum wage worker. That's about what I expect.
Here is one consideration. I said LIFE'S WORK....ONLY QUALIFIED YOU FOR MINIMUM WAGE.
My life's work enabled me to do more than minimum wage work. But to get a good job you've got to have a job.
I don't understand your fascination with me having worked at subway. What does that prove?
I should have kept using dope because I couldn't pick up my white chip and walk straight into a six figure income?
My story kind of proves my point about minimum wage jobs. They are there for teenagers, losers, and for adults who had a rough patch and need a stepping stone.
I had to move once on very short notice, didn't have time to line up a job, so my third day in the new town I shook hands with the manager of a sears and sold shoes for six weeks until I found something significantly better. It was only $5.xx, what ever the minimum was at the time. It sure as hell beat sitting on the couch bitching about how valuable I was.
joefoxx
Member
Well that's true but it's also relatively subjective. It would depend on what an individual deems as "best". Some folks may feel sharing is best while others may feel it's best left to survival of the fittest. Isn't this the basic argument between Democrat and Republican.
It's sort of like the idea that everyone can be wealthy. If everyone was wealthy then wealth would no longer exist. Likewise if everyone bought into that formula you wrote the tiered social system we have in place would cease to exist. If everyone was comfortable why would anyone strive for more? What would be the motivation for competition?What is my motivation to buy more or try and get rich? I ask you this, "If I am one of the wealthy few, why would I encourage or even stand by idly as this happens. How is this in MY best interest? In fact why wouldn't I use my considerable influence to oppose that situation at every turn?"
Our current economic system has been bolstered primarily by a culture of extreme individualism that has been fostered since the beginning of mass media advertising. That removal from each other, that desensitized sphere of personal space that surrounds most every American, even from their own family, was instituted so that everyone would become an individual consumer, spending their own money individually as opposed to the traditional family spending model. What I'm saying is that caring less about most everybody has been purposefully infused into American culture and it has taken hold like a... well a weed lol
I point out Mitt Romney because I feel he represents the average 1percenter. In all honesty, these are the men that have shaped American culture to there standards. For the record, there is a difference between not actively caring about anybody else but your own and
actively causing a negative effect on thousands of lives. There's a reason why many corporate supermen have much in common with the common sociopath. I don't mean to absolve people of any responsibility I only mean we give ourselves too much credit.
For most, their choices are mandated by their upbringing and the society they live in. That goes for Mitt and most other wealthy people just as much bums. How to properly use money is a very well kept secret in America. The best kept secret. You usually have to buy that knowledge or be birthed into it. So you're right, most people don't act in their own best interest but that's because most disagree on what that is. And it's in others' best interest for things to stay that way.
Lastly, I care about everyone, dude. Does that mean I cry when they die? No. But I do sympathize. I try to understand. It may not directly help them but it positively affects my choices and pushes me to better inform my opinions. Hmmm I wonder what the country would be like if everyone bought into something as simple as that?...
It's sort of like the idea that everyone can be wealthy. If everyone was wealthy then wealth would no longer exist. Likewise if everyone bought into that formula you wrote the tiered social system we have in place would cease to exist. If everyone was comfortable why would anyone strive for more? What would be the motivation for competition?What is my motivation to buy more or try and get rich? I ask you this, "If I am one of the wealthy few, why would I encourage or even stand by idly as this happens. How is this in MY best interest? In fact why wouldn't I use my considerable influence to oppose that situation at every turn?"
Our current economic system has been bolstered primarily by a culture of extreme individualism that has been fostered since the beginning of mass media advertising. That removal from each other, that desensitized sphere of personal space that surrounds most every American, even from their own family, was instituted so that everyone would become an individual consumer, spending their own money individually as opposed to the traditional family spending model. What I'm saying is that caring less about most everybody has been purposefully infused into American culture and it has taken hold like a... well a weed lol
I point out Mitt Romney because I feel he represents the average 1percenter. In all honesty, these are the men that have shaped American culture to there standards. For the record, there is a difference between not actively caring about anybody else but your own and
actively causing a negative effect on thousands of lives. There's a reason why many corporate supermen have much in common with the common sociopath. I don't mean to absolve people of any responsibility I only mean we give ourselves too much credit.
For most, their choices are mandated by their upbringing and the society they live in. That goes for Mitt and most other wealthy people just as much bums. How to properly use money is a very well kept secret in America. The best kept secret. You usually have to buy that knowledge or be birthed into it. So you're right, most people don't act in their own best interest but that's because most disagree on what that is. And it's in others' best interest for things to stay that way.
Lastly, I care about everyone, dude. Does that mean I cry when they die? No. But I do sympathize. I try to understand. It may not directly help them but it positively affects my choices and pushes me to better inform my opinions. Hmmm I wonder what the country would be like if everyone bought into something as simple as that?...