Examples of GOP Leadership

DIY-HP-LED said:

I didn't make up the quote, but it is trotted out every time an electorate is about to do something stupid, like elect Trump for instance. It's an old English political quote, so it will sound kinda sanctimonious. Some Americans have no idea of how their government works, others are caught up in information silos and become dupes, but there are those among them who are white nationalists, fascist, Nazis or whatever label you want to put on them. Some of those vigilant patriots are at war with their fellow citizens, to deny it would be to deny the systemic racism in America or the political experience of the American south. Indeed, you have seen the spread of methods of voter suppression and cheating common in the south, but now applied to gerrymandered districts and groups identified through polling and big data.

However, we are getting better at this liberal democracy stuff. Before WW2 there was widespread discrimination against Catholics and separate education systems here in NS. Back in the day religion counted and even JFK had political problems because of religious bigotry, even though he was white as snow. The KKKs hate list once also included Jews and Catholics too. Now religion doesn't matter much and is less a cause of social division, however other forms of bigotry exist and some politicans still pander to it.

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You did not need to trot it out in an approving manner. It was off the mark then as now (and for the same reasons).

Bagginski said:

You’ve been living in the US, right?

We’ve been in a ‘cold civil war’ since the beginning of the civil rights era; we’ve been in a ‘cold civil war’ since Father Coughlin led the armed & unarmed ranks of the America First movement through American cities in support of anti-democratic & pro-Nazi policies (including staying out of WW2).

We’ve been in a cold civil war since ‘businessmen’ decided to raise an army to depose FDR, got exposed by the most decorated soldier & officer in history - and no investigation was held, no charges were filed, no one lost a job or went to jail.

Gotta say, that may be the stupidest, least insightful thing Mahler’s ever said in public - it’s like he missed EVERYTHING from Aryan Nations & Posse Comitatus to Charlottesville, Portland, and Jan.6. At this point, I expect to see him opening soon for Dennis Miller at an Amway convention….

TL;DR = it’s only “cold” because only one side is shooting

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Seems a bit hyperbolic to me.

I wish people would stop making up terms for something that already exists. What you refer to was called class struggle by Marx. Also class warfare.

But I don't think that's what DIY is talking about.

Bagginski said:

Your use of “we” is a bit broad: I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t make collective pronouncements about what “we” deserve: some of us may have been fighting longer than you’ve known there was a fight.

As for Bobo the clown, she could be a tasteless, unprincipled hustler & just play an idiot on TV: given the scale and the scope of the overthrow effort, even the best-informed have had their vision obscured for a very long time - since Appomattox, in fact, and the birth of “states’ rights” & “heritage, not hate”.

It really just depends on when you start trying to pay attention

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We means your neighbors and NATO allies and as for deserving, that is an old English quote. This shit didn't start with Trump, the political polarization has been going on for a long time as blacks migrated to the democrats and the south flipped republican. States right was a disinformation campaign started by the daughters of the confederacy, the war was about human rights for black folks and still is in many ways. It is this bigoted tribalism that was expanded into culture wars to encompass more of the discontented. The voter suppression and cheating refined in the south over many decades is now being applied by republicans in most states and seeking to control the vote counting and running the elections is part of this too. Stalin said, it's not who votes that counts, its who counts the votes, and republicans have been repeating this line at meetings.

Honestly, I never took an interest in US politics until the rise of blatant fascism in America with the political polarization and the arising of Trump who harnessed its latent energy and malice. If they were confident, they would win the larger war for the heart and soul of the country, why do they need to lie, rig the system and cheat so much? It's kind of like a form of asymmetrical political warfare that involves burning down the country to gain and retain political power with a minority of the country. That only works if you have a base who believes bullshit to begin with and a propaganda machine that can expand it beyond its core with culture wars. Is there really a divide between rural and urban people, or is it the result of the information they consume and how?

As in every country there are those who seek to impede social progress and justice, in America they have become desperate and the peculiarities of the American political system, empowers minority rule.

cannabineer said:

You did not need to trot it out in an approving manner. It was off the mark then as now (and for the same reasons).

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It was a rather neutral statement in fact, you could well deserve the democrats, because I wouldn't bet a dime on the outcome of this one, no matter what the polls are saying. I made no predictions as to what way the election would go but the quote does address the ethical and moral quality of the elected and those who would vote for them. The rest, be it a majority of the country are along for the ride, just like the rest of us, if they should gain power. Government shutdowns over bullshit for instance affect the Canadian economy and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in Ukraine is another concern. Vlad rooting for the GOP is another worry...

DIY-HP-LED said:

It was a rather neutral statement in fact, you could well deserve the democrats, because I wouldn't bet a dime on the outcome of this one, no matter what the polls are saying. I made no predictions as to what way the election would go but the quote does address the ethical and moral quality of the elected and those who would vote for them. The rest, be it a majority of the country are along for the ride, just like the rest of us, if they should gain power. Government shutdowns over bullshit for instance affect the Canadian economy and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in Ukraine is another concern. Vlad rooting for the GOP is another worry...

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The fact that you think that it is mild or neutral is the problem imo. It occludes two very harmful falsehoods:

1) that people tend to be rational
2) that those who seek to subvert the election process are easily recognized.

Taken ad extremum, one could walk past the emaciated corpses of Jewish citizens stacked like cordwood under the smokestack and shrug; they got what they deserved.

cannabineer said:

The fact that you think that it is mild or neutral is the problem imo. It occludes two very harmful falsehoods:

1) that people tend to be rational
2) that those who seek to subvert the election process are easily recognized.

Taken ad extremum, one could walk past the emaciated corpses of Jewish citizens stacked like cordwood under the smokestack and shrug; they got what they deserved.

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That would be extreme indeed. It emphasizes the importance of responsibility for citizens and warns of the consequences. America recently had a dangerous fool as president and 74 million Americans wanted more death and destruction after 4 years of it. Make foolish choices and suffer the consequences, is the message I believe and over generalizing is not helpful, as is over thinking it.

DIY-HP-LED said:

That would be extreme indeed. It emphasizes the importance of responsibility for citizens and warns of the consequences. America recently had a dangerous fool as president and 74 million Americans wanted more death and destruction after 4 years of it. Make foolish choices and suffer the consequences, is the message I believe and over generalizing is not helpful, as is over thinking it.

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What I am trying to get past your defensive line is that voting wrong is not automatically foolish. That is the core fallacy in the quote.

The quote dismisses the effectiveness of marketing the undemocratic ideas aspiring authoritarians employ. It is without compassion.

cannabineer said:

What I am trying to get past your defensive line is that voting wrong is not automatically foolish. That is the core fallacy in the quote.

The quote dismisses the effectiveness of marketing the undemocratic ideas aspiring authoritarians employ. It is without compassion.

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Voting is not wrong, but sometimes the choices are clearly foolish, and the quote was made before mass media or social media. If the republicans win, we will see who lacks compassion, it was a simple observation of the democratic political process and people have been getting hornswoggled at the polls since America or for that matter democracy began. Some appeal to passion versus those who appeal to reason, the passionate ones tend to be con artists and the rational ones want to get things done, solve problems and move forward. Where we should draw the line is when they use violence, hate, cheating and abuse their positions to attain and retain power, the republicans meet these criteria.

DIY-HP-LED said:

If the republicans win, we will see who lacks compassion

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Obfuscation. Your still not disavowing the quote is where your lack of compassion is evident.

Fogdog said:

Seems a bit hyperbolic to me.

I wish people would stop making up terms for something that already exists. What you refer to was called class struggle by Marx. Also class warfare.

But I don't think that's what DIY is talking about.

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Well, I *was* poking at Mahler’s “insight”…but I’m pretty sure we haven’t gotten to class warfare yet (tho I’ll grant that we’re close)…another reason why elections are important.

I have no doubt Marx was a real smart guy, but I doubt he had sufficient grasp of our local complexities to’ve been addressing “the west” directly (reminder: I’m not schooled in Marx or socialism at all); for example, it’s still not widely recognized that, by the end of the 1800s, wage slavery and chattel slavery proponents had more or less reached an accommodation about gaming the economy & keeping labor as close to actual slavery as possible. Industry got commoditized labor, chattel-slavers got free of the need to feed and house a captive workforce, just to point to one example.

I do believe his conclusions about end-stage capitalism are playing out here and around the world right now, so on one level, the overthrow move was totally predictable. It was their end goal, and a terrific distraction from all the chickens coming home to roost, but once exposed, the clock starts ticking on their support, which WILL erode, HAS eroded, IS ERODING - with every new stab of cognitive dissonance breaking the spell even after, spreading the cracks even further.

And here we are…all we can do is breathe, stay loose, keep focused, and follow through on all our talk.

AND under & behind it all, capitalism crumbles fast as it tries to capture EVERYONE in a debt prison they can’t get out of. Yes, even - maybe especially - their base: the pickpocket want us to hand them the wallet because we don’t trust ‘some other guy’…because…the pickpocket told us NOT to?

cannabineer said:

Obfuscation. Your still not disavowing the quote is where your lack of compassion is evident.

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I don't need to disavow anything, much less that quote, not all moral lessons involve compassion, sometimes they involve mistakes!

How many here are compassionate about the Russians and the choices they made? They want to hang onto an empire of the mind too and Putin harnessed ethnonationalism and bigotry to rise to power. Much of their problem is being enslaved to an idealized past and empire and Putin directly appealed to that. Now they are drafted and in Ukraine while their economy goes down the toilet, as Putin used the power of the state against his political opposition and now them. I have more compassion for the poor bastards than most here, who are being herded to their slaughter like the inmates of a death camp.

What of America? What is so bad that the republicans are seen as a viable alternative by almost half the population for whom facts don't seem to matter. What compels people to make such obviously poor choices? The quality of the information we consume affects the quality of our decisions, but there's the rub, in America they have a choice of information sources. This makes them culpable as well as victims. Trump rejected reality when he lost the election and searched for advice to support the delusion after being repeatedly told he lost fair and square. Likewise, his voters dropped foxnews when they revealed the awful truth that Trump lost and searched for a narrative that supported the lie.

The rest of you poor bastards are their victims too, just like when they refused to wear masks, get vaccinated and America suffered a million covid deaths, way more than anybody else at one point. You would think covid alone and Trump's mishandling of it would have scared the shit out of most Americans, not to mention his and the GOP's cozy relationship with Russia.

DIY-HP-LED said:

I don't need to disavow anything, much less that quote, not all moral lessons involve compassion, sometimes they involve mistakes!

How many here are compassionate about the Russians and the choices they made? They want to hang onto an empire of the mind too and Putin harnessed ethnonationalism and bigotry to rise to power. Much of their problem is being enslaved to an idealized past and empire and Putin directly appealed to that. Now they are drafted and in Ukraine while their economy goes down the toilet, as Putin used the power of the state against his political opposition and now them. I have more compassion for the poor bastards than most here, who are being herded to their slaughter like the inmates of a death camp.

What of America? What is so bad that the republicans are seen as a viable alternative by almost half the population for whom facts don't seem to matter. What compels people to make such obviously poor choices? The quality of the information we consume affects the quality of our decisions, but there's the rub, in America they have a choice of information sources. This makes them culpable as well as victims. Trump rejected reality when he lost the election and searched for advice to support the delusion after being repeatedly told he lost fair and square. Likewise, his voters dropped foxnews when they revealed the awful truth that Trump lost and searched for a narrative that supported the lie.

The rest of you poor bastards are their victims too, just like when they refused to wear masks, get vaccinated and America suffered a million covid deaths, way more than anybody else at one point. You would think covid alone and Trump's mishandling of it would have scared the shit out of most Americans, not to mention his and the GOP's cozy relationship with Russia.

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I’ll pick out one thing and comment.

“How many here are compassionate about the Russians and the choices they made? They want to hang onto an empire of the mind too and Putin harnessed ethnonationalism and bigotry to rise to power.”

I think that describes a small minority. I believe the majority sought someone who could put food in the stores and a year or two of back pay be made good. When life is hard, you vote for the guy who might have the ponies to pull the system into a semblance of function.

It’s what the Germans did, to their general detriment.

Bagginski said:

You’ve been living in the US, right?

We’ve been in a ‘cold civil war’ since the beginning of the civil rights era; we’ve been in a ‘cold civil war’ since Father Coughlin led the armed & unarmed ranks of the America First movement through American cities in support of anti-democratic & pro-Nazi policies (including staying out of WW2).

We’ve been in a cold civil war since ‘businessmen’ decided to raise an army to depose FDR, got exposed by the most decorated soldier & officer in history - and no investigation was held, no charges were filed, no one lost a job or went to jail.

Gotta say, that may be the stupidest, least insightful thing Mahler’s ever said in public - it’s like he missed EVERYTHING from Aryan Nations & Posse Comitatus to Charlottesville, Portland, and Jan.6. At this point, I expect to see him opening soon for Dennis Miller at an Amway convention….

TL;DR = it’s only “cold” because only one side is shooting

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Bill overlooks the fact that Trump will soon be indicted and the swiftness of his trial and conviction will shock him and much of America too. The only thing Donald is running for is in the direction away from prison. It's a long way from the republican nomination process and I doubt they will move it up more than a year for him, announce all he wants, everybody will be announcing as a joke. The GOP has no presidential candidate until they nominate one, at this point he's just another among many, some of whom are clearly mad.
Bill Maher makes grim prediction about Trump in 2024

81,506 views Nov 6, 2022
Comedian and talk show host Bill Maher sits down with CNN's Fareed Zakaria to discuss the 2022 midterm elections and what could happen if former President Donald Trump runs for office again in 2024. #CNN #news

cannabineer said:

You did not need to trot it out in an approving manner. It was off the mark then as now (and for the same reasons).

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Sorry you were offended, but you can't please everybody and I am imperfect, like you.

DIY-HP-LED said:

Sorry you were offended, but you can't please everybody and I am imperfect, like you.

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I would prefer your focus not to be on sentiment but on meaning. In any case …

cannabineer said:

I’ll pick out one thing and comment.

“How many here are compassionate about the Russians and the choices they made? They want to hang onto an empire of the mind too and Putin harnessed ethnonationalism and bigotry to rise to power.”

I think that describes a small minority. I believe the majority sought someone who could put food in the stores and a year or two of back pay be made good. When life is hard, you vote for the guy who might have the ponies to pull the system into a semblance of function.

It’s what the Germans did, to their general detriment.

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I generally agree, but there is a big base of them for whom republicans can't fuck up no matter what, they don't vote on the economic issues really. It comes down to the information sources they choose in most cases and that bias was the thin edge of the wedge for Foxnews. Studies have shown that Foxnews views are less informed than those who don't watch news at all. So ignorance and misinformation must be driving ideas like the republicans are better for the economy or that global phenomena like inflation and oil prices are somehow Biden's fault and under his control. The republicans with democratic help over the decades, systematically removed and impeded the government's ability to regulate business or even enforce antitrust laws, price fixing and gouging.

If the democrats screwed up governing like the GOP does or were caught in scandals, they would immediately lose large amounts of support, but not even J6 was enough to sway republicans and they weather scandals unscathed. Matt Gatez will win his district or come really close as will a host of other unsavory characters who could never survive as democrats.

Okay….

DIY-HP-LED said:

We means your neighbors and NATO allies and as for deserving, that is an old English quote.

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if *you* won’t be participating in Tuesday’s election, then “we” does not include you on this subject.

Ditto for NATO and our allies: if you’re not HERE dealing with THIS PART, then *WE* must deal with it; if a time comes when NATO and our allies can aid us as *WE* deal with it, we will ask, as surely as Ukraine has asked.

That day is not today. Hopefully, that day won’t be next week, either.

Your quote was a cynical remark to begin with, don’t lean on it too hard.

This shit didn't start with Trump, the political polarization has been going on for a long time as blacks migrated to the democrats and the south flipped republican.

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Thanks for the tip, I’ll look into it

States right was a disinformation campaign started by the daughters of the confederacy, the war was about human rights for black folks and still is in many ways. It is this bigoted tribalism that was expanded into culture wars to encompass more of the discontented. The voter suppression and cheating refined in the south over many decades is now being applied by republicans in most states and seeking to control the vote counting and running the elections is part of this too. Stalin said, it's not who votes that counts, it’s who counts the votes, and republicans have been repeating this line at meetings.

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I have the oddest feeling you haven’t actually read anything I’ve posted here

Honestly, I never took an interest in US politics until the rise of blatant fascism in America with the political polarization and the arising of Trump….

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This is going to sound bad, but it really shows. You’re not wrong, mostly, but you often speak about our politics with an authority that a few years of popular reading cannot provide. I, who’ve been researching these matters (race, slavery, the civil war, reconstruction, Jim Crow, Brown v Board of Education…) since before there was internet, feel no particular sense of authority, but I *do* wish you wouldn’t wave away the contributions of others. There are extremely sharp and experienced people contributing here, and I consider you among them: please consider them to be among YOU.

I would never dream of discussing Canadian - or even parliamentary - politics as if I knew anything a Canadian could benefit from. I’d rather learn than have an opinion.

As in every country there are those who seek to impede social progress and justice, in America they have become desperate and the peculiarities of the American political system, empowers minority rule.

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AFAICT *every* form of government impedes progress and Justice over time; the difference with ours is, it was supposedly made proof against it - we need to learn from the the recent failure and do better. Our “peculiarities” like those of all nations are rooted in how our history has played out, but the accretion of power is as real as gravity and must be treated similarly

Bagginski said:

Okay….


if *you* won’t be participating in Tuesday’s election, then “we” does not include you on this subject.

Ditto for NATO and our allies: if you’re not HERE dealing with THIS PART, then *WE* must deal with it; if a time comes when NATO and our allies can aid us as *WE* deal with it, we will ask, as surely as Ukraine has asked.

That day is not today. Hopefully, that day won’t be next week, either.

Your quote was a cynical remark to begin with, don’t lean on it too hard.


Thanks for the tip, I’ll look into it

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It was cynical for sure, and no I won't be nipping over the border to vote. As I mentioned, America could deserve the democrats too, we will soon see. Actions speak louder than words which are often false, but votes are actions and reveal true intentions more clearly. If the republicans win the house or whole congress it won't end American democracy, but it will dig the hole deeper and make it harder to climb out of without eventual bloodshed. Nothing will get done and the chaos will continue if rewarded by the electorate.

As for asking for NATO help, America was the only country to invoked it and NATO forces were in Afghanistan to share Bush's blunder when America was attacked, though we didn't share in the second Gulf war, another blunder on a scale of Vlad's.

Bagginski said:

Okay….


if *you* won’t be participating in Tuesday’s election, then “we” does not include you on this subject.

Ditto for NATO and our allies: if you’re not HERE dealing with THIS PART, then *WE* must deal with it; if a time comes when NATO and our allies can aid us as *WE* deal with it, we will ask, as surely as Ukraine has asked.

That day is not today. Hopefully, that day won’t be next week, either.

Your quote was a cynical remark to begin with, don’t lean on it too hard.


Thanks for the tip, I’ll look into it



I have the oddest feeling you haven’t actually read anything I’ve posted here



This is going to sound bad, but it really shows. You’re not wrong, mostly, but you often speak about our politics with an authority that a few years of popular reading cannot provide. I, who’ve been researching these matters (race, slavery, the civil war, reconstruction, Jim Crow, Brown v Board of Education…) since before there was internet, feel no particular sense of authority, but I *do* wish you wouldn’t wave away the contributions of others. There are extremely sharp and experienced people contributing here, and I consider you among them: please consider them to be among YOU.

I would never dream of discussing Canadian - or even parliamentary - politics as if I knew anything a Canadian could benefit from. I’d rather learn than have an opinion.


AFAICT *every* form of government impedes progress and Justice over time; the difference with ours is, it was supposedly made proof against it - we need to learn from the the recent failure and do better. Our “peculiarities” like those of all nations are rooted in how our history has played out, but the accretion of power is as real as gravity and must be treated similarly

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To your last paragraph: think of it as evolution in action. (Larry Niven)
We devised the best scarecrow we could, and the crows adapted.

Trump, DeSantis to hold dueling Florida rallies
Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) and former President Trump and are set to hold dueling rallies in the sunshine state on Sunday as the two prominent Florida figures play tug-of-war for support from the GOP ahead of Tuesday’s election.

The two political rivals are rumored presidential contenders for a 2024, with DeSantis seen as Trump’s biggest competition in a hypothetical Republican primary.

Trump is set to rally in Miami in support of Sens. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) and Rick Scott (R-Fla.) along with a host of House Republicans, while DeSantis is expected to rally in Hillsborough County, near Tampa, as he seeks his own reelection, according to the governor’s profile on the streaming service Rumble.

DeSantis isn’t included on the long roster of speakers Trump’s Save America PAC sent in an email late last week. expected at Trump’s rally tonight — a list that includes seven House lawmakers from the state and both sitting senators, Rubio and Sen. Rick Scott (R). The Hill has reached out to DeSantis’ team for more information about his rally plans.

Trump hit at DeSantis during his rally in Pennsylvania Saturday night, dubbing the governor “Ron DeSanctimonious” and hinting at his own 2024 reelection bid.
President Biden has called DeSantis “Donald Trump incarnate.”

Polls have shown Republicans view DeSantis as a leader of the GOP and a top contender heading into 2024, with some results indicating he could even fare better than the former president among Florida Republicans in a presidential primary.

Trump is scheduled to give remarks at his “Get Out the Vote Rally” in Miami Sunday night at 5 p.m. DeSantis’ “Don’t Tread on Florida” rally is set for around 3 p.m, per the governor’s Rumble page.