EXCUSE ME?!..The OFFICIAL Bernie Sanders For President 2016 Thread

[abandonconflict]

We need to raise taxes on capital gains.

It's in the GP platform, this is just an abbreviation for Stein's issues.

 

[Fogdog]

Name recognition, establishment favoritism, big money donors/superPACs, media bias, voter suppression, registration limits...

All things that helped Clinton secure the nomination. The reasons minorities support Clinton at higher rates than Sanders extend into socioeconomic and even religious issues, as Clinton supporters love to point out "they're the same on more than 90% of the issues", so if you're implying that Sanders, the man who walked with MLK while Clinton was busy being president of the young Republicans at Wellesley College, is somehow worse on racial issues, please explain how. Seeing as Sanders has a good reputation when it comes to racial issues and there's nothing in his history that would tarnish that, the reason why blacks and minorities would support Clinton at higher rates than him would seem pretty obvious; she's a more moderate democrat than Sanders, and blacks and minorities are also generally more moderate democrats. They tend to hold organized religion in higher regard and they tend to oppose LGBT rights at higher rates than whites. Supporting Sanders over Clinton largely comes down to being more progressive over being more moderate. Young people, white people, males as well as the highly educated tend to be more liberal. Which isn't to say Sanders doesn't have strong support outside those demographics, because he does, particularly among young women.

I think it's pretty disingenuous to try to spin this as if to make it seem like the only people who support Sanders are young, affluent rich kids who don't have anything better to do with their time than bitch about how haaaaarrrrd they have it. Give me a fucking break with that bullshit. You know as well as I do whether you admit it or not this movement is supported by vast amounts of poor and middle-class people of all colors, ages and genders.

Let me remind you that I voted for Sanders in the Oregon primary and was disappointed when he lost out to Hillary. I still support Sander's policies and hope he and his followers stick around to keep Hillary in check when she behaves like a republican. Sanders is voting for Hillary and I'm following his lead. I don't think Sanders would have said he'd vote for Hillary if she were as bad as you all make her out to be either. I think she's going to be a great president. Much better than W and maybe better than Obama. We'll see. Feel free to hit me with this if I turn out to be glaringly wrong.

That said, I repeat -- the article ty posted got it wrong in it's fundamental premise that Bernie Babies represent lower economic groups. The main group of Bernie Babies are the white, male, young from white middle class families with a much better than average education. They are not anywhere near the same demographic as the traditional working classes. With their better education, their prospects are much better compared to most people who represent the bulk of the working classes.

And I'm not saying its easy times for Bernie Babies. They can thank another group of left wing democrats who sat on the sidelines and gave George W the opening to steal the presidency then again sat on the sidelines while Congress was taken over by Republicans. It's a fact that their disengagement with politics was at the heart of the right wing domination of the first decade of this millennium in the US. Republicans did what they do, they pillaged the treasury and ruined the economy. Bernie Babies had the poor luck to come of age during a grinding and slow recovery that is not complete even now.

That Bernie Babies would ignore the harm Trump and the fascist GOP would do to the working classes I find repugnant. Especially when they so clearly got a raw deal from the former GOP administration.

 

[Fogdog]

It's in the GP platform, this is just an abbreviation for Stein's issues.

I've poked about the green party website or more specifically the Oregon Green Party website and can't find anything informative. Could you please post a link to help me find the platform?

 

[abandonconflict]

http://www.gp.org/platform

 

[ttystikk]

Let me remind you that I voted for Sanders in the Oregon primary and was disappointed when he lost out to Hillary. I still support Sander's policies and hope he and his followers stick around to keep Hillary in check when she behaves like a republican. Sanders is voting for Hillary and I'm following his lead. I don't think Sanders would have said he'd vote for Hillary if she were as bad as you all make her out to be either. I think she's going to be a great president. Much better than W and maybe better than Obama. We'll see. Feel free to hit me with this if I turn out to be glaringly wrong.

That said, I repeat -- the article ty posted got it wrong in it's fundamental premise that Bernie Babies represent lower economic groups. The main group of Bernie Babies are the white, male, young from white middle class families with a much better than average education. They are not anywhere near the same demographic as the traditional working classes. With their better education, their prospects are much better compared to most people who represent the bulk of the working classes.

And I'm not saying its easy times for Bernie Babies. They can thank another group of left wing democrats who sat on the sidelines and gave George W the opening to steal the presidency then again sat on the sidelines while Congress was taken over by Republicans. It's a fact that their disengagement with politics was at the heart of the right wing domination of the first decade of this millennium in the US. Republicans did what they do, they pillaged the treasury and ruined the economy. Bernie Babies had the poor luck to come of age during a grinding and slow recovery that is not complete even now.

That Bernie Babies would ignore the harm Trump and the fascist GOP would do to the working classes I find repugnant. Especially when they so clearly got a raw deal from the former GOP administration.

Young voters mpstly ARE in the lower economic strata, you can't have it both ways.

Shillary represents what's left of the middle class, as everyone else has fallen thru the cracks. Bernie represents their interests much better than any other candidate.

 

[Fogdog]

Young voters mpstly ARE in the lower economic strata, you can't have it both ways.

Shillary represents what's left of the middle class, as everyone else has fallen thru the cracks. Bernie represents their interests much better than any other candidate.

LOL, there are hardly any remaining in the middle class. If that is what she represents then she could not have won the nomination. You miss the difference between Bernie Babies and the traditional working poor and working classes who overwhelmingly support Hillary. Except, that is, for roughly 35% of the population who are also in the lower income group but represent white crackers who support Trump . Bernie Babies are upwardly mobile compared to most in the lower economic groups.

The white, well educated, male, young demographic aren't in the top echelon of income earners. Wow what a surprise. Was there ever a time when the majority of young people started life in the top ten percent of incomes? Or even top 50%?

In case you missed the memo: Bernie isn't running for president. He's voting for Hillary.

 

[Fogdog]

http://www.gp.org/platform

Thanks for this, I've already opened it and have a question. Is there another country, time or place where the 10 key values were put into reality in a way that more or less matches the GP ideal? If not all ten then the pillars of decentralization and community economics?

 

[abandonconflict]

I've poked about the green party website or more specifically the Oregon Green Party website and can't find anything informative. Could you please post a link to help me find the platform?

I posted that link #10047 of this thread, just a couple posts back. Also, I want to make clear, although you didn't ask, that this represents huge compromise on my part. I am far more radical and would like to see the system brought down by whatever means necessary but I acknowledge there are not enough people sufficiently disaffected and disgruntled to make an actual revolution occur. My point is, I don't agree with every part of this platform and I'm not pushing it, you asked and I shared. It's not something I fully support, but I have educated myself on every available option regarding changing this system through voting.

I don't expect anyone else on this site to do the same, but I know what is going on politically probably better than most people around. I don't pick fights with the likes of Hillary supporters because most of them are aware she is terrible, they support the lesser evil. Supporting her, for me, is out of the question. What annoys me would be the irrational enduring support for Bernie by people who say they do not support Hillary. I think that's the real point of this thread, that they have become the Paulbots of 2016, to be ridiculed.

 

[abandonconflict]

Thanks for this, I've already opened it and have a question. Is there another country, time or place where the 10 key values were put into reality in a way that more or less matches the GP ideal? If not all ten then the pillars of decentralization and community economics?

I have not made a deliberate comparison between the GP platform and international examples. However, as I have just stated, I do not actually "support" this platform per se. I have educated myself on all options for change through the electoral system and found this to be the closest to my views and desires. I don't think it is perfect.

 

[Fogdog]

I posted that link #10047 of this thread, just a couple posts back. Also, I want to make clear, although you didn't ask, that this represents huge compromise on my part. I am far more radical and would like to see the system brought down by whatever means necessary but I acknowledge there are not enough people sufficiently disaffected and disgruntled to make an actual revolution occur. My point is, I don't agree with every part of this platform and I'm not pushing it, you asked and I shared. It's not something I fully support, but I have educated myself on every available option regarding changing this system through voting.

I don't expect anyone else on this site to do the same, but I know what is going on politically probably better than most people around. I don't pick fights with the likes of Hillary supporters because most of them are aware she is terrible, they support the lesser evil. Supporting her, for me, is out of the question. What annoys me would be the irrational enduring support for Bernie by people who say they do not support Hillary. I think that's the real point of this thread, that they have become the Paulbots of 2016, to be ridiculed.

In this case, I'm just looking at alternatives. I see a slower evolutionary path as the better one. Revolutions haven't ended well lately.

Good luck on your revolution. I hope it doesn't happen.

 

[abandonconflict]

In this case, I'm just looking at alternatives. I see a slower evolutionary path as the better one. Revolutions haven't ended well lately.

Good luck on your revolution. I hope it doesn't happen.

Maybe the revolutions haven't ended well, but the systems they ended, ended well.

 

[schuylaar]

Her platform sounds like someone's I already know; someone with 13M votes..

 

[schuylaar]

Second half;

The entire economic recovery was designed to return the lives of the top 10% back to homeostasis. The theory being that those people would create jobs for the rest of the country. The resulting recovery has been unsurprisingly anemic. Guess it was too much trouble for the two political parties to repair the fortunes of the working class so that those people could go back to spending money and driving the economy. That would have been “too ambitious,” as everything that helps the bulk of the American people always tends to be.

Bernie is the first major candidate in decades to step up and declare that the majority of the American people should have their needs treated as the primary concern of government. He espouses a completely different policy paradigm from the one accepted by the political establishments of both the Democratic and Republican parties. His entire agenda focuses on what the American people need rather than what the ruling classes deem “politically possible.” He represents an attempt to create a political party that unapologetically serves the needs of the working class. It is tremendously telling that such an effort finds itself so starkly at odds with the mainstream leadership of the Democratic Party.

When Hillary Clinton supporters espouse the virtues of pragmatic incrementalism, Bernie supporters need to remember that that entire viewpoint neglects their needs. That is the view of people who live in relative financial security, for whom economic hardship is not only minor, but can be traced back to relatively recent Republican irresponsibility. These people have seen incrementalism respond to their needs. Government has largely repaired their lives in the wake of the financial crisis. The larger economic crises of deindustrialization and the destruction of the unions are things that are simply not happening in their world. They are unhappy with Congress’s current displays if incompetence, but the status quo hasn’t been so bad for them and their kids over the last 30 years. These people can afford to accept incremental change — masquerading as “responsible moderate governance” — that keeps the system on an even keel. They have no visceral relationship to the idea that our current government doesn’t work for most people, or the need for revolutionary and fundamental change.

The message to Hillary supporters:
The discussion over whether Bernie supporters should be “Bernie or Bust,” “Never Hillary,” or “Anyone but Trump” is one that Bernie supporters need to have amongst themselves. You put those people in a horrible position by squashing their reinvigorated enthusiasm for the political process with cynicism, pessimism, and a healthy dose of condescension. You then gloated in their faces, as if your ill-gotten electoral victory actually meant that you won the intellectual argument (it didn’t).

All of this was in service to a candidate from the Democratic establishment, whose class interests not only run contrary to Bernie supporters’ interests, but many of yours as well. You supported the “fake ally of the working class” that has perpetrated the disenfranchisement of progressive voters over the last 30 years (in tandem with the all-out legislative assault on their interests by Republicans). You don’t get to tell these people to “suck it up” and vote for your candidate. That’s a plea for them to vote against their own interests, something they wouldn’t have to consider doing if you had stood with them in the primaries in the way that you are now asking them to stand with you. Don’t expect solidarity when you were unwilling to show any.

If your interests do not run contrary to Bernie supporters, then you were conned by the Democrats into undermining your own interests as well. Either way, Bernie supporters are under no obligation to join you. You don’t get to berate them into doing what you want. You are part of their problem, not a solution. Be respectful of that.

A personal anecdote.
For me, this became personally relevant recently when someone I know, who supported Hillary in the primary, wrote an open letter to “Bernie or Bust” people about how awful a Trump presidency would be for him. He’s gay and recently married his partner. He is also privileged and well-connected in politics. He made an impassioned plea for people to understand that Trump would represent a rollback of hard-earned rights that members of the LGBT community have only recently won. His words were moving, but he didn’t seem to realize how bad of a messenger he was.

It would be one thing if he had been a Bernie supporter asking other Bernie supporters to be prudent with their votes. When a plea like that comes from a privileged Hillary supporter, it is nothing more than a touchingly personalized version of the same fear mongering that has been used to convince a generation of working class people — long abandoned by the Democrats — to “hold their noses” and vote for the “lesser of two evils” once again. It’s all just threatening a dire alternative to induce people to vote against their own interests. At a certain level, this tactic is a form of terrorism.

The irony of his plea is that Bernie supporters represent a much larger downtrodden group of their own: working-class members of the Democratic Party who have essentially been dispossessed of an electoral voice by the party’s shifting interests over the last three decades. Bernie’s candidacy was an attempt to shift the Democratic Party back to its roots of truly standing for the working class. This friend of mine had a chance to show solidarity with those voters by supporting a candidate who was every bit as progressive on social issues as Hillary, but who also had a strong agenda for empowering the working class. Instead, he chose to support the next corporate shill churned out for mass consumption by Democratic leadership.



The really frustrating part of all of this is that he wouldn’t even do right by the working class when there was no cost him personally. If Bernie had won, this guy would have gotten a candidate who supported all of the socially progressive policies he wanted, but a Hillary win means that those working class Democrats won’t be getting a candidate who supports their progressive economic policy needs. He actively helped the mainstream of the Democratic Party thwart the interests of progressive working class voters. Then he turned around and used an exploitative personal plea to urge people that he wouldn’t stand with to put personal differences aside and stand with him. It takes powerful blinders to not see the hypocrisy there.

The people who constitute the Democrats’ upper middle class base don’t get it. They never will. Their struggle is not the working class’s struggle. Their issues can be solved by a game of inches. The working class needs to move miles. The problem in this election is that they were able to convince so many from the working class that doing what is best for them is what is best for everyone in the country. They have that in common with Republican leadership. It’s a con-job on par with trickle-down economics. Touché, upper middle class. Touché.

That said, Bernie is just the beginning of a massive sea change. Much like Republicans, Democratic leadership’s days of getting away with this are preciously numbered.

This portion ^^^^is exactly why I still stand with Sanders..it's why I played some chicken with that bitch in her Porsche (while I'm chugging along in my Volvo) with an 'I'm for Hillary' sticker early on in the primary.

It's why I'll never give Hillary my vote even with Sanders endorsement.

 

[schuylaar]

You call bullshit on what, that the democratic establishment is just as corrupt as the republican establishment?

If Clinton represents the working class, why do voters who make less money support Sanders and voters who make more money support Clinton?

That would seem to be a pretty good indication of who actually represents whom

Bam!

 

[schuylaar]

I posted that link #10047 of this thread, just a couple posts back. Also, I want to make clear, although you didn't ask, that this represents huge compromise on my part. I am far more radical and would like to see the system brought down by whatever means necessary but I acknowledge there are not enough people sufficiently disaffected and disgruntled to make an actual revolution occur. My point is, I don't agree with every part of this platform and I'm not pushing it, you asked and I shared. It's not something I fully support, but I have educated myself on every available option regarding changing this system through voting.

I don't expect anyone else on this site to do the same, but I know what is going on politically probably better than most people around. I don't pick fights with the likes of Hillary supporters because most of them are aware she is terrible, they support the lesser evil. Supporting her, for me, is out of the question. What annoys me would be the irrational enduring support for Bernie by people who say they do not support Hillary. I think that's the real point of this thread, that they have become the Paulbots of 2016, to be ridiculed.

Yes we are aware you are uber radical, but no, this thread is to ELECT Bernie.

People aren't stupid and no one is going to buy that Shillary will keep her word; she wants the votes she'll say anything.

I appreciate Bernies efforts in negotiating with this hack but he's making a deal with the devil who stole this election from him.

Let that resonate..the DNC stole the election and you wish to support them because she seems to be the lesser of those evils?

When it comes down to it..establishment supports hers; establishment DOES NOT support Trump because he owes no one..they can't control him and they don't like it.

Lining up the pros and cons? They're both the same BUT she's the sneakier one who thinks her Washington shit doesn't stink.

I'll vote Trump before I vote her..I want to see non establishment in Washington!!!!!!!

 

[abandonconflict]

Her platform sounds like someone's I already know; someone with 13M votes..

Yeah but hers is better and she's running for president. Besides Barnie is a democrat.

Yes we are aware you are uber radical, but no, this thread is to ELECT Bernie.

He's not running for president though.

 

[schuylaar]

Yeah but hers is better and she's running for president. Besides Barnie is a democrat.

He's not running for president though.

I haven't heard a concession..he's still running.

Perhaps I'll show her how much I hate her and vote Trump.

Trump is a narcissist like most CEOs.

Clinton is an out and out liar like most sociopaths.

I will not give my vote to someone who cannot be trusted to tell the truth..say, didn't Bill become disbarred for lying?

The Clintons are out and out liars..past performance indicates future events..it always does; they don't change no matter which house they live.

 

[abandonconflict]

I haven't heard a concession..he's still running.

Perhaps I'll show her how much I hate her and vote Trump.

Trump is a narcissist like most CEOs.

Clinton is an out and out liar.

I will not give my vote to someone who cannot be trusted to tell the truth..say, didn't Bill become disbarred for lying?

The Clintons are out and out liars..past performance indicates future events..it always does; they don't change no matter which house the live.

Your boy Bernie is voting for Clinton though. By the way, I have to remind you again, since you're clearly confused, I'm not pushing Clinton, I'm pushing Jill Stein. You retort as though I'm pushing Clinton, but I'll just remind you again:

Bernie's with her.

 

[schuylaar]

Your boy Bernie is voting for Clinton though. By the way, I have to remind you again, since you're clearly confused, I'm not pushing Clinton, I'm pushing Jill Stein. You retort as though I'm pushing Clinton, but I'll just remind you again:

Bernie's with her.

Stein is unelectable.

 

[abandonconflict]

Stein is unelectable.

LOL

It is so ironic coming from a berniebot since he is not even running for president and she is. So when you say she is unelectable, what you really mean is you can't stand that she's not a democrat. I don't even care who you vote for, by all means write someone in who isn't even running, or vote for Trump like you said you would, I'll just keep reminding you that Barnie is not even running for president.