Experienced Electrician! Here to Answer Any and All Growroom Electrical Questions

mrmadcow said:

good catch!

I always thought the reason to ground within 6 feet of entry was to prevent the pipe from being disconnected and losing ground.either by being cut out of the system or having a section replace w/ pvc.
not to argue or dispute you but seeking knowledge, are you saying that the pipe could become energized and feed though the water to the drain(and anyone in its path)?
that makes sense & in that case,please admend my advice to running a wire to the breaker panel or water meter -altho I still question the ability to run a load on that outlet.

Click to expand...

its the water that can become energized... if theres shitty soldering or oxidized pipes in the system between the bonding point and the entry point that act as a slight resistor, the dissolved salts in the water becomes the conductor and the current travels through the water to wherever it needs to go to dissapate. since drains, septics and sewers often create excellent earth grounds, the current can travel through the water in the pipes and out the faucet of a sink or whatever and then down the drain to the sewer/septic to dissapate in mother earth. if you happened to be using that sink or whatever, x amount of amps of fault current just traveled through your ass.

the reason you have to bond within 6 feet of entry is that 6' of copper is a very short path to travel for fault current to get to earth, whereas if you bonded somewhere else in the structure, it could be 60-200 feet of water line before you get to ground, with alot of joints in between and changes of direction....

ps- i wouldnt run a load on that outlet either.. 2 wires to me says knob and tubing....

Thank you for doing this, sir. I'll admit I have not read all 159 pages, but I have some questions in my mind so I'm going to see if you are kind enough to answer them. I am an electrical idiot, and so far my growing is just in theory.

1. Relay idea. Is there such a thing as a relay that would be controlled by 110V current? So that you could have one timer, and certain things would come one when the others went off. For instance, one could have two 12/12 grow chambers, completely isolated from light leakage, that would be light/dark at exactly opposite times. One advantage of this would be to eliminate the security issue of power companies detecting big 12/12 cycles of current usage (I read that they do this, but I don't know if it is true).

Another possible advantage of such a system would be to rig up a complex venting system so that the heated air from the lit chamber passed through the dark chamber on it's way out. This has to do with the relatively new horticultural concept of DIF, which states that plant stretching responds to the difference in day and night temperatures. Some greenhouses (I'm not talking about marijuana growers) have created a negative DIF by actually heating their greenhouses at night to a higher temp than they are in the day. For certain plants this results in very compact growth. It would be fun to experiment with weed in that sense, and if it worked it would be helpful to have some sort of automated system with two flowering chambers on opposite schedules, each vented into the other at certain times. That way the heat of the lights would not be wasted.

2. Is there such a thing as a terminal block with all the screws on each side hooked together? It seems like this would be useful. To wire multiple lights on one circuit you'd just hook up the live black and white wires to the end screws and each light could be wired up to a screw on each side. Then you wouldn't have to mess with sticking three wires in a bunch of wirenuts (just guessing at the name of the bright colored things that you screw wires into to connect them) in order to hook up each light and have another wire running to the next light. My real question here is if I'm missing some basic concept. It seems dumb that each screw on a terminal block would just hook up to the screw across from it - you could just use a wirenut. But when I look at a terminal block that's how it appears to work.

I have other questions, but they seem like they'd be more common and I will search for the answer before bothering you.

Thanks again.

Okay guys i have a question that i've been working on in my head and on paper and researching for days... What i want to do is wire both a speed controller and thermostat to my centrifugal fan so that the fan would always run at say, 25% to keep negative pressure in the room, then when thermostat kicks on at 79 the fan would kick in to full power until tstat kicks back out at 75...
I'm pretty sure i have this correct and please correct me if I'm wrong...
1) I'll have 3 wire coming into j box from a 120v outlet: bl, wh, gr, I'll tie black together with black goin to speed control and black to tstat.
2)White will be tied into wh from cent fan.
3)Ground from breaker will be tied to ground from fan.
4)White coming back from tstat (will be marked w black tape) and tied into white (w/blk tape) coming back frm speed controller and black (hot) going to fan...

Just wanting to make sure this is the correct configuration... Also, this fan is a 4" centrifugal and pulls only 1 amp, i'm assuming it would be ok to just us 14/2 ext cord to do wiring from tstat to jbox etc..??

sorry if this is very unclear... maybe i need to smoke another bowl...

IAm5toned said:

its the water that can become energized... if theres shitty soldering or oxidized pipes in the system between the bonding point and the entry point that act as a slight resistor, the dissolved salts in the water becomes the conductor and the current travels through the water to wherever it needs to go to dissapate. since drains, septics and sewers often create excellent earth grounds, the current can travel through the water in the pipes and out the faucet of a sink or whatever and then down the drain to the sewer/septic to dissapate in mother earth. if you happened to be using that sink or whatever, x amount of amps of fault current just traveled through your ass.

the reason you have to bond within 6 feet of entry is that 6' of copper is a very short path to travel for fault current to get to earth, whereas if you bonded somewhere else in the structure, it could be 60-200 feet of water line before you get to ground, with alot of joints in between and changes of direction....

ps- i wouldnt run a load on that outlet either.. 2 wires to me says knob and tubing....

Click to expand...

are you guys talking about electric water?

buddy of mine does rental properties for a living... he had a tenant call him one time and tell him her water hurt... he figured the water heater was turned up too high or something and goes over there... turns teh water on and sticks his hand in and sure enough gets a solid shock... he said it wasn't like a full 120 hit at an outlet or something... but it wasn't good at all... and this lady was washing her dishes like this for weeks apparently... ended up being a bare wire laying on a copper pipe

thats exactly what i was talking about

permalink

I have a 30 Amp timer box from sunlight supply--- i have it pluged into my dryer to the the 220 an i have 4 1000 watt lights with digital ballest an the timers box came with a timer an for some reason when I set the time on it for OFF an ON the lights dont come on nor shut off--- the timer box comes with 4 -240 receptacles an 2- 120 volt receptacles--- there are 2 cords coming out the the box one plugs in to the the dryer socket an the other into the wall to get power an I have the timer plugged into the timer box--- i am not sure what I am doing wrong-- can someone help thanks --------

Luv2Gro said:

Okay guys i have a question that i've been working on in my head and on paper and researching for days... What i want to do is wire both a speed controller and thermostat to my centrifugal fan so that the fan would always run at say, 25% to keep negative pressure in the room, then when thermostat kicks on at 79 the fan would kick in to full power until tstat kicks back out at 75...
I'm pretty sure i have this correct and please correct me if I'm wrong...
1) I'll have 3 wire coming into j box from a 120v outlet: bl, wh, gr, I'll tie black together with black goin to speed control and black to tstat.
2)White will be tied into wh from cent fan.
3)Ground from breaker will be tied to ground from fan.
4)White coming back from tstat (will be marked w black tape) and tied into white (w/blk tape) coming back frm speed controller and black (hot) going to fan...

Just wanting to make sure this is the correct configuration... Also, this fan is a 4" centrifugal and pulls only 1 amp, i'm assuming it would be ok to just us 14/2 ext cord to do wiring from tstat to jbox etc..??

sorry if this is very unclear... maybe i need to smoke another bowl...

Click to expand...

i dont think that will work...

you need a single pole relay with a 120v coil to make that work:

IAm5toned said:

i dont think that will work...

you need a single pole relay with a 120v coil to make that work:

Click to expand...

hmmm... well on al b fucts harvest every 2 weeks tutorial he explains hooking them up... this is the diagram...

I'm not sure 100% this will work but assuming both the controller and the temp sensor are the same phase (which they are) then wouldn't the 120v from the tstat override the 30v from the speed controller when it kicks on??

I could be wrong here... Nebody else have any ideas?? Do i need a relay?? Thanks so much...

i do see what ur saying tho iamstoned... what u are saying would def work too... I'm not sure where to get one of these, and am still wondering if my idea of just wiring tstat and fsc in parallel would work.. i have both on order, the tstat and fsc so we shall see i guess...
nebody else have an idea... thanks..

i put the relay in as a preventative measure, ive never tried it myself so i wasnt sure if the line voltage backfeed would damage the speed control or not... if al b fuct is willing to put his name on it id say give it a go.

slint42 said:

1. Relay idea. Is there such a thing as a relay that would be controlled by 110V current? So that you could have one timer, and certain things would come one when the others went off. For instance, one could have two 12/12 grow chambers, completely isolated from light leakage, that would be light/dark at exactly opposite times.

Click to expand...

its called a flip flop relay(search the term) & it will work but to do it right,you need a second timer to shut off power to the ballast for 1/2 per day-running 24/7 is bad for a ballast,it needs a cooldown time

slint42 said:

2. Is there such a thing as a terminal block with all the screws on each side hooked together? It seems like this would be useful. To wire multiple lights on one circuit you'd just hook up the live black and white wires to the end screws and each light could be wired up to a screw on each side. Then you wouldn't have to mess with sticking three wires in a bunch of wirenuts.

Click to expand...

might be, I never saw one but life is easier just putting 3-4 wires under 1 wirenut so I never bothered to look for something like that

savage17 said:

permalink

I have a 30 Amp timer box from sunlight supply--- i have it pluged into my dryer to the the 220 an i have 4 1000 watt lights with digital ballest an the timers box came with a timer an for some reason when I set the time on it for OFF an ON the lights dont come on nor shut off--

Click to expand...

call sunlight supply,either it has an override switch that is on to keep the lights on regardless of timer or it is defective

Luv2Gro said:

i do see what ur saying tho iamstoned... what u are saying would def work too... I'm not sure where to get one of these, and am still wondering if my idea of just wiring tstat and fsc in parallel would work.. i have both on order, the tstat and fsc so we shall see i guess...
nebody else have an idea... thanks..

Click to expand...

I say just get a properly sized fan and ditch the speed control.

Most AC motors don't like the speed controls much. They will work, but will hum and die sooner. How much sooner is upto the quality of the motor and its design. (correct way is a VFD, but thats a motor made for a VFD and controler a minimum of $200 and overkill)

A S&P TD series have lugs for 2 speeds, I'd prefer that.

slint42 said:

Thank you for doing this, sir. I'll admit I have not read all 159 pages, but I have some questions in my mind so I'm going to see if you are kind enough to answer them. I am an electrical idiot, and so far my growing is just in theory.

1. Relay idea. Is there such a thing as a relay that would be controlled by 110V current? So that you could have one timer, and certain things would come one when the others went off. For instance, one could have two 12/12 grow chambers, completely isolated from light leakage, that would be light/dark at exactly opposite times. One advantage of this would be to eliminate the security issue of power companies detecting big 12/12 cycles of current usage (I read that they do this, but I don't know if it is true).

Another possible advantage of such a system would be to rig up a complex venting system so that the heated air from the lit chamber passed through the dark chamber on it's way out. This has to do with the relatively new horticultural concept of DIF, which states that plant stretching responds to the difference in day and night temperatures. Some greenhouses (I'm not talking about marijuana growers) have created a negative DIF by actually heating their greenhouses at night to a higher temp than they are in the day. For certain plants this results in very compact growth. It would be fun to experiment with weed in that sense, and if it worked it would be helpful to have some sort of automated system with two flowering chambers on opposite schedules, each vented into the other at certain times. That way the heat of the lights would not be wasted.

2. Is there such a thing as a terminal block with all the screws on each side hooked together? It seems like this would be useful. To wire multiple lights on one circuit you'd just hook up the live black and white wires to the end screws and each light could be wired up to a screw on each side. Then you wouldn't have to mess with sticking three wires in a bunch of wirenuts (just guessing at the name of the bright colored things that you screw wires into to connect them) in order to hook up each light and have another wire running to the next light. My real question here is if I'm missing some basic concept. It seems dumb that each screw on a terminal block would just hook up to the screw across from it - you could just use a wirenut. But when I look at a terminal block that's how it appears to work.

I have other questions, but they seem like they'd be more common and I will search for the answer before bothering you.

Thanks again.

Click to expand...

you can run 2 lamps off of one ballast but it requires some specialty parts that are not cheap. youll need a double pole single throw relay, a one-shot timer, and some type of a lighting controller or control panel to act as a logic gate. those three components are going to run you a pretty penny indeed. it also works alot better if you use digital ballasts over magnetic, as the restrike/cooldown period is significantly shorter for a digital ballast. one of the disadvantages of running a system like this is your 12/12 is going to drift by 15-30 mins everyday, because of the cooldown period that the ballast needs. this in fact will mess up alot of people because they need there setups to come on or off at specific times for whatever reason.
here's a concept design i made a while back to run two lamps on one ballast, maybe it will give you a better idea of how its done. as you can see, its not as simple as it sounds. the reason being that running 2 lamps on one balllast is hard on the ballast, and certain steps have to be taken to ensure proper operation over the course of time, unless you want your ballast to shit the bed after 6 months for running continuously. this design is expensive, but will last years if properly applied.



as far as terminal strips, what your looking for are called 'terminal jumpers' they make as many different types and sizes of terminal jumpers, the best ones go across the middle of the terminal so that you have both top and bottom lugs to connect to.
the reason we use terminal strips is primarily vibration, which is almost nonexistant in a grow op. terminal strips are usually found in control panels, which often have transformers, vfd's, relays, contactors, all sorts of things that create mechanical movement and minute vibrations. these same vibrations turn into harmonics, and cause wirenuts to loosen over time. the terminal strip provides enough mechanical pressure to ensure that the wires do not vibrate loose from those harmonics. also they provide a cheap interface between tough field wiring and delicate expensive controls, and simplify wire and cable identification, which can be priceless in a cabinet with hundreds and sometimes thousands of individual wires.

they also make things look really neat, lol.

I'm thinking about a new light set-up. I want to use 4 x 150 watt Ceramic Metal Halide bulbs. This project is part Trial - part Experiment, so cheapness is my Prime Directive. That leaves me with HPS "Ballast Replacement Kits" as the only reasonable option.

The problem I'm having is that all the CMH bulbs call for the ballast to be ANSI # "Yada-yada-yada" - but all the friggin' HPS Ballast Kits I find are designated ANSI # "Something different".

I understand that CMH bulbs are meant to be driven by, non digital, HPS type ballasts, I'm even matching the correct wattage between bulb and ballast kit. What gives?

My question is, what the hell do these different ANSI numbers mean - and is this something I should worry about?

yes, it is something you should worry about.
the ansi numbers are a cross reference id # for matching bulbs with ballasts.
the different bulb type can tell you what type of ballast the lamp requires...
for example 2 common mh lamp types, m58, and m83, are both MH halide lamps, but require different ballast types. the m58 is a probe start, and the m83 is a pulse start.

CMH lamps are pulse start

ps/hint-
try googling this:
ANSI #(insert lamp ANSI number here) (insert lamp wattage)watt ballast


for future reference:
Common Ballast ANSI codes for HID lighting.


Mercury Vapor
H46 - 50 watt standard MV
H43 - 75 watt standard MV
H36 - 100 watt standard MV
H42 - 125 watt standard MV (European MV and some high pressure sodium lamps*)
H39 - 175 watt standard MV (Some high pressure sodium lamps*)
H37 - 250 watt standard MV (Some high pressure sodium lamps*)
H33 - 400 watt standard MV (Some high pressure sodium lamps*)
H36 - 1000 watt standard MV (Some high pressure sodium lamps*)


Low Pressure sodium
L69 - 18 watt LPS (SOX/SOX-E)
L70 - 35 watt LPS (SOX/SOX-E)
L71 - 55 watt LPS (SOX/SOX-E)
L72 - 90 watt LPS (SOX/SOX-E)
L73 - 135 watt LPS (SOX/SOX-E)
L74 - 180 watt LPS (SOX/SOX-E)


High Pressure Sodium
S76 - 35 watt standard HPS
S104 - 50 watt White SON
S68 - 50 watt standard HPS
S62 - 70 watt standard HPS
S105 - 100 watt White SON
S54 - 100 watt standard HPS
S55 - 150 watt (55 volt) standard HPS
S56 - 150 watt (100 volt) standard HPS (European SON/HPS lamps)
S66 - 200 watt standard HPS
S50 - 250 watt standard HPS (some metal halide*)
S51 - 400 watt standard HPS (some metal halide and European metal halide*)
SON AGRO - 430 watt SON
S106 - 600 watt standard HPS
S111 - 750 watt standard HPS
S52 - 1000 watt standard HPS


Metal Halide
M130 - 35/39 watt MH
M110 - 50 watt MH (standard and pulse start)
M85 - 70 watt MH (double-ended and BiPin lamps)
M98 - 70 watt MH (standard, pulse start, and operates some double - ended and BiPin lamps)
M139 - 70 watt MH (ceramic metal halide, some double - ended, and some BiPin lamps)
M90 - 100 watt MH (standard, pulse start, and operates some double - ended lamps)
M91 - 100 watt MH (double-ended and BiPin lamps)
M140 - 100 watt MH (ceramic metal halide, some double - ended, and some BiPin lamps)
M81 - 150 watt MH (double - ended and BiPin lamps)
M102 - 150 watt MH (standard, pulse start, and operates some double - ended and BiPin lamps)
M142 - 150 watt MH (ceramic metal halide, some double - ended, and some BiPin lamps)
M107 - 150 watt MH (energy saving probe start / Replaces 175 watt probe start lamps)
M137 - 175 watt MH (pulse start and some European lamps*)
M57 - 175 watt MH (standard probe start and some high pressure sodium lamps*)
M58 - 250 watt MH (standard probe start and some high pressure sodium lamps*)
M80 - 250 watt MH (double-ended and some European lamps*)
M138 - 250 watt MH (pulse start and some European bulbs*)
M59 - 400 watt MH (standard probe start and some high pressure sodium lamps*)
M135 - 400 watt MH (pulse start and some European lamps*)
M128 - 400 watt MH (pulse start lamps)
M47 - 1000 watt MH (standard probe start and some high pressure sodium lamps*)
M141 - 1000 watt MH (pulse start, double ended, and operates some European lamps)
M48 - 1500 watt MH (probe start lamps)
M133 - 1500 watt MH (pulse start, double-ended and some European lamps)
M134 - 2000 watt MH (pulse start - double-ended lamps)
*Note: Conversion bulbs

I bought a inline vent fan booster. I believe its normally used in homes with long vent runs to just help things along. The fan comes with three wires hanging off of it. I was thinking of just using a three wire extention cord and cutting the female end off and just hard wiring to it. Then I will just plug it into a timer to cycle on and off.

I will be using a can fan with my HPS light and vent it on both ends. One end to bring in fresh the other to exhaust the light heated air.

If the former idea sounds good then that will be my method of bringing in, and exhausting grow room air in both the veg and flower room, with the canfan handling the light.

What do you think?

i have an ecoplus digital timer an I plugged it into the wall to charge it that is what it said to do at first an I did that-- then I wanted to try it out on a lamp an see if it worked an it didnt-- I bought a whole kit the 30 amp timer kit--- have 4-240 outlits an 2 - 120 outlits---- an coming out the the 30 amp timer box is one that goes to the dryer an the other cold that powers the 2 outlits on the 30 amp timer box--- i know that u plug the timer into the wall an not into the 30 amp box-- then u plug the 120 cord into the timer but it didnt turn my lights on nor shut then off-

savage17 said:

i have an ecoplus digital timer an I plugged it into the wall to charge it that is what it said to do at first an I did that-- then I wanted to try it out on a lamp an see if it worked an it didnt-- I bought a whole kit the 30 amp timer kit--- have 4-240 outlits an 2 - 120 outlits---- an coming out the the 30 amp timer box is one that goes to the dryer an the other cold that powers the 2 outlits on the 30 amp timer box--- i know that u plug the timer into the wall an not into the 30 amp box-- then u plug the 120 cord into the timer but it didnt turn my lights on nor shut then off-

Click to expand...

even though i'm not exactly sure what you're saying let me say this...

first things first... if the timer isn't working by itself then solve that problem first. If your timer isn't working then you're light controller is going to fail.

second... to install the timer box (electrical box with breakers and outlets) you need to have a free 30amp dryer outlet (not sharing the one your dryer uses) to plug this box into... that powers the entire outlet area... both 240 and 120 volt

the timer needs to be plugged into an outlet that is not part of this system at all... it will need a separate 120 volt power source... this is the trigger cord and when it senses power a relay inside the timer box (big electrical box) will turn on power to the 120 and 240 receptacles below

so to summarize

figure out how to work the timer... plug in the dryer outlet to a free 30 amp dryer plug... plug in the timer to a free 120 volt outlet that isn't part of this system... plug in the 120 volt cord from this system into the "timed" side of the timer


http://www.nationalgardenwholesale.com/ngw/gardening_supplies.aspx?request=30_AMP_TIMER_BOX&title=Timers __ Instruments&type=product

product manual at the bottom of the page


http://www.nationalgardenwholesale.com/ngw/gardening_supplies.aspx?request=ECO_PLUS_DIGITAL_PLUG-IN_TIMER&title=Timers __ Instruments&type=product
from the bottom of the digital timer page: "Helpful hint: If not functioning properly. Plug in for 5 minutes and press the reset button. This generally fixes any problem."



oh and it looks like this timer might have dual timed outlets.. meaning the timer controls each side separately... not sure on that... but you should keep it in mind

I want to branch of a 30 amp 220v line to power an extra set of lights. My question is if it is okay to branch off the existing to gain an extra 220 outlet, much like you can do with 110 outlets. My plan is to put a J-box in midline and branch off of that. Total amount of lights on that circuit would be 4 x 1000w HPS.

Thank you for providing your expertise you provide a valuable and important service.