experienced growers only...

skunkushybrid01 said:

Do you know what ATP is?

Do you know when ATP is created?

It is only created during photosynthesis... without ATP the plant cannot produce sufficient buddage. Once the lights go down the plant needs to conserve what ATP it has made into surviving till the lights come back on and more ATP can be manufactured. So how does the lights going down save energy? they don't, the plant is constantly losing it. Only when the lights are on can the plant build sufficient energy to last it through any dark period.

It's the light period that releases different hormones. During lights on, cytokinins are more active, lights out auxins are more active. Cell division and cell elongation, respectively.

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Yes, I know all about ATP and have researched it on animals as well as plants,which includes the use of sugars and citric acid(krebs cycle) to produce ATP, or energy. This guy explained ATP and cellular respiration VERY well, and I have watched all seven parts, over an hour long explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxQeKBHAdn8&feature=related
By the way, when I mentioned saving energy, I was not talking about plant energy, I was talking about electrical energy. And ATP is NOT only produced during photosynthesis -- actually photosynthesis has little to do with ATP production. Glucose(sugars), oxygen, carbon and carbohydrates, and citric acid are used to release energy in the form of ATP(cellular respiration). The only thing photosynthesis has to do with ATP is that it is during photosynthesis that the glucose is manufactured for use. This store of glucose is used in conjunction with all the other factors I stated above, and in plants, more ATP is actually used during the dark cycle, after photosynthesizing and producing sugars and stored ATP during the light cycle.
And as far as that dark cycle at the end of flowering goes, the plant has already produced the "sufficient buddage", or bud weight by this time, and the main focus of this part of the plant's reproductive cycle now is to get pollinated, so it will focus this energy on converting sugars to trichomes as the pistils draw into the calyxes.
Again, I'm not trying to get into a wang-measuring contest here, I was simply pointing out the things I did and didn't agree with in your posts. The whole point here is to share our experiences and opinions, and mine are all based on research. I'll put my tape measure away if you put yours away.

J Dub

J.W. said:

By the way, when I mentioned saving energy, I was not talking about plant energy, I was talking about electrical energy. And ATP is NOT only produced during photosynthesis -- actually photosynthesis has little to do with ATP production. Glucose(sugars), oxygen, carbon and carbohydrates, and citric acid are used to release energy in the form of ATP(cellular respiration). The only thing photosynthesis has to do with ATP is that it is during photosynthesis that the glucose is manufactured for use. This store of glucose is used in conjunction with all the other factors I stated above, and in plants, more ATP is actually used during the dark cycle, after photosynthesizing and producing sugars and stored ATP during the light cycle.
And as far as that dark cycle at the end of flowering goes, the plant has already produced the "sufficient buddage", or bud weight by this time, and the main focus of this part of the plant's reproductive cycle now is to get pollinated, so it will focus this energy on converting sugars to trichomes as the pistils draw into the calyxes.
Again, I'm not trying to get into a wang-measuring contest here, I was simply pointing out the things I did and didn't agree with in your posts. The whole point here is to share our experiences and opinions, and mine are all based on research. I'll put my tape measure away if you put yours away.

J Dub

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Photosynthesis has everything to do with ATP production as none of it is made during lights out.

the kreb's cycle doesn't have anything to do with this... aside from the fact that it also happens during the dark?

I was explaining in layman terms... you confused my plant energy with electrical energy.... when i said:

it is a waste of energy to induce that stress using extensive dark hours.

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I was talking about plant energy... you yourself stated the plant loses far more energy during the dark. the reason for this is because the ATP cannot be replaced until photosynthesis kicks it back in. without photosyntesis the kreb's cycle also wouldn't happen... even though it is known as a dark response or reaction whatever, this simply means it happens independently of photosynthesis, so happens all the time... but still needs photosynthesis to work in the first place. The dark is only important in that it triggers flowering... the rest of the dark responses happen during photosynthesis alongside normal photosynthetic processes.

stress induces more potency at a small loss to yield... but why increase that yield loss even more by not giving the plant the correct energy to finish? the pistils don't simply retreat into the calyxes, the calyxes swell too. Indeed the final few days are integral for added weight.

IMO very personal opinion... why bother playing at all? Any potency increase is surely negligible, yet the loss to yield may one day come to bite you on the ass.

you will see an increase in trichomes. The amount depends on your strain. The long dark period triggers the plant into thinking the flowering season is ending and she tries her hardest to get pollinated. This results in producing more sticky trichs in order to increase her chances of catching pollen, but of course this will never happen. If you are growing in soil, make sure you let it become somewhat dry before starting the dark period, this will also add a good bit of trichs.

blakkmask said:

you will see an increase in trichomes. The amount depends on your strain. The long dark period triggers the plant into thinking the flowering season is ending and she tries her hardest to get pollinated. This results in producing more sticky trichs in order to increase her chances of catching pollen, but of course this will never happen. If you are growing in soil, make sure you let it become somewhat dry before starting the dark period, this will also add a good bit of trichs.

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right OK... let's think about this just for a second... you believe plants think?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic... it's a normal human response to anthropomorphise the way a plant behaves.

A plant is merely a set of hormonal responses (a little more than that but i believe it will do). You cannot trick a plant into anything, it either is or it isn't... and it will react accordingly. It makes no difference to a plant whether the sun goes down or a new bush suddenly rises up to steal all it's light, the hormonal response is the same. Only difference is the plant doesn't have enough light to manufacture enough energy, this is why the auxins work in cell elongation, or stretch. the plant is searching for light. Doesn't matter if the sun has gone down for 12 hours, the plant will stretch just like it's being shaded by a bush. Only difference is the dark is everywhere, so the plant stretches straight up.

Just like any machine the plant needs energy to drive it. for all plants that energy comes from light.

isn't it enough that after you chop those big colas that the plant is still alive? It's put in the dark for a week or so before jarring and again stored in the dark. do you think it's dead? It goes through those normal processes even while it is drying... in the dark.

seriously, that should be enough of the dark. 12 hours a day for 8 weeks... and you want to lose another 3 days of growth? forget that. Increase your light hours to 13 minimum... so 13/11 and hit them till the end.

skunkushybrid01 said:

right OK... let's think about this just for a second... you believe plants think?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic... it's a normal human response to anthropomorphise the way a plant behaves.

A plant is merely a set of hormonal responses (a little more than that but i believe it will do). You cannot trick a plant into anything, it either is or it isn't... and it will react accordingly. It makes no difference to a plant whether the sun goes down or a new bush suddenly rises up to steal all it's light, the hormonal response is the same. Only difference is the plant doesn't have enough light to manufacture enough energy, this is why the auxins work in cell elongation, or stretch. the plant is searching for light. Doesn't matter if the sun has gone down for 12 hours, the plant will stretch just like it's being shaded by a bush. Only difference is the dark is everywhere, so the plant stretches straight up.

Just like any machine the plant needs energy to drive it. for all plants that energy comes from light.

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GJ Bill Nye, But what does your answer have to do with producing more trichs during a dark period? And no, I dont try to humanize things that are not human, I just try to explain things in lamens , seeing as more than likely, Panic420 is new to growing...You really think he cares what an auxin is at this point? He needs simple, direct answers to questions, not some douchebag spouting big sciency words that he looked up on google. But anywho, thanx for the botany lesson "Experienced Grower"

BTW, When did I ever say It "tricks" plants, I said trigger. The same way 12 hours of uninterrupted darkness "triggers" flowering

skunkushybrid01 said:

Photosynthesis has everything to do with ATP production as none of it is made during lights out.

the kreb's cycle doesn't have anything to do with this... aside from the fact that it also happens during the dark?

I was explaining in layman terms... you confused my plant energy with electrical energy

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I think you are mistaken my friend. Check these links out:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081101231550AAJ2ffU

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090825185233AA77nwO
ATP energy is mostly STORED during photosynthesis, and used at all times, mostly during lights out. Photosynthesis produces sugars and ADP, which are used in cellular respiration to produce ATP, not the other way around.
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookPS.html
Glucose/carbs, are PRODUCED most during photosynthesis(light cycle), not USED most.
And Krebs cycle not having anything to do with this!???
Along with the electron transport chain, the krebs cycle is one of the final stages of ATP energy use. . . .
Also, I was aware I confused what you were saying about plant energy -- I said so in my last post.

skunkushybrid01 said:

I was talking about plant energy... you yourself stated the plant loses far more energy during the dark. the reason for this is because the ATP cannot be replaced until photosynthesis kicks it back in. without photosyntesis the kreb's cycle also wouldn't happen... even though it is known as a dark response or reaction whatever, this simply means it happens independently of photosynthesis, so happens all the time... but still needs photosynthesis to work in the first place. The dark is only important in that it triggers flowering... the rest of the dark responses happen during photosynthesis alongside normal photosynthetic processes.

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Yes, you're right, the plant CAN'T produce more ATP without more light. It's simply using up the stored energy and ATP that it has left during those last dark hours, and spends energy using those sugars and ATP to make resin, instead of making sugars to produce more ATP, which is what it would do if the lights were on. It's the end of flowering -- there's no reason that the plant can't expend the rest of its stored energy. What I actually said was they produce more resin and hormones during the dark cycle, and even referenced one of Subcool's posts afterward. And dark "only important in that it triggers flowering?" Do you REALLY believe that!? As you said, it is true that most of the dark responses do happen alongside photosynthesis, but nowhere near as much of the energy is used on these processes during the light cycle, and it's a completely different set of hormones shifting at night.[/QUOTE]

skunkushybrid01 said:

stress induces more potency at a small loss to yield... but why increase that yield loss even more by not giving the plant the correct energy to finish? the pistils don't simply retreat into the calyxes, the calyxes swell too. Indeed the final few days are integral for added weight.

IMO very personal opinion... why bother playing at all? Any potency increase is surely negligible, yet the loss to yield may one day come to bite you on the ass.

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As I said in the above posts, for the reasons I stated above, you're not going to lose a noticeable yield the last 36 hours of the plant's life, unless you harvest waaay early. There's enough energy and sugars formed from its last photosynthesis to get it through that dark cycle and produce nothing but resin. And the pistils are going to draw in and the calyxes are going to swell regardless of it being the dark cycle, probably even faster actually, as the pistils rapidly change color and more trichs are produced. The calyxes aren't going to swell that much at the very end though, whether it's dark or it's light. I guess we'll just agree to disagree on some issues -- you have your opinion, and I have mine. I don't want to thread-jack. Peace

J Dubs

so should the lights be off 24, 36, or 48 hours before cutting?

these threads are funny.

Haha, I would say 36. Based on actual experience.

rzza said:

heres the thing, you will see results but they are the same reults you would see if you kept them on 12/12 for the same 48 to 72 hours. i have done this but again the results are not tremendous trichs like people say it is. the plant is throwing trichs on like crazy the last few days and weeks. if your wanting the extra resinous buds IMO just leave em a couple days after you decide to chop. FWIW i did 48 hours darkness and cold.

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This is the truth. The whole truth and nothing but the truth!

for those that talked about losing yield...i'm already goin to get some really airy buds and not to much yield...so i'm just trying to see what i can do to get as much resin or trichs before i cut down cuz i already know the yield is goin to be shitty do to the nugs not being dense...

Yeah I don't know much about this darkness theory but I do know that I watched the trichs grow like crazy after putting a flowering cutting back under mh to try and reveg. No scope needed they were almost 2 millimeters long bro pokin out all over the plant like little shrooms. Ill be runnin half mh and hps in my tent next time for flowering. ( the mh I use is a hortilux super blue if that matters or it is just any mh. I will say these super blues are fukin bright as all hell). There is a nice tip for ya. I kno ill be creating more trichs the entire time during flowering.

dr. greenthumbz said:

Yeah I don't know much about this darkness theory but I do know that I watched the trichs grow like crazy after putting a flowering cutting back under mh to try and reveg. No scope needed they were almost 2 millimeters long bro pokin out all over the plant like little shrooms. Ill be runnin half mh and hps in my tent next time for flowering. ( the mh I use is a hortilux super blue if that matters or it is just any mh. I will say these super blues are fukin bright as all hell). There is a nice tip for ya. I kno ill be creating more trichs the entire time during flowering.

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can anyone else confirm this method?

blakkmask said:

BTW, When did I ever say It "tricks" plants, I said trigger. The same way 12 hours of uninterrupted darkness "triggers" flowering

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blakkmask said:

The long dark period triggers the plant into thinking the flowering season is ending and she tries her hardest to get pollinated.

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Here is where you anthropomorphised the subject. Plants do not THINK.

blakkmask said:

And no, I dont try to humanize things that are not human, I just try to explain things in lamens , seeing as more than likely, Panic420 is new to growing...You really think he cares what an auxin is at this point? He needs simple, direct answers to questions, not some douchebag spouting big sciency words that he looked up on google. But anywho, thanx for the botany lesson "Experienced Grower"

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Who cares what he needs? I don't believe I once quoted the OP. These are public threads, anyone can read them. I'm not just telling him, i'm telling everybody in the hope that somebody who actually know what they're talking about will come and join in the conversation. You're not that person, by the way. The OP matters not a jot... not like his plants are going to die unless he gets the right answer

J.W. said:

ATP energy is mostly STORED during photosynthesis, and used at all times, mostly during lights out. Photosynthesis produces sugars and ADP, which are used in cellular respiration to produce ATP, not the other way around.

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Seriously man, a quick read on google isn't going to get you through this...

The kreb's cycle and everything else you might consider a dark response happen during photosynthesis too. They need photosynthesis to begin with. cellular respiration happens all the time so has little to do with the lights being out, aside from the fact that the plant can't make ATP anymore.

The plant doesn't use more ATP during the dark, it just doesn't create any more. So the ATP it is using is simply depleting the stores.

Look man, i can tell you have no idea what you're talking about and are winging your way through google.

and please... no more yahoo or wiki links. Takes a lot to delete them when i'm quoting you.

As I said earlier, this isn't a wang-measuring contest, and I think I can speak for a lot of people just on this thread when I say that you're thread-jacking and no-one really cares what you think you know about cellular respiration and ATP. I originally tried to be nice, but your repetitive contradictions and finger-pointing seem to never end. It's pretty obvious that YOU'RE the one who has no idea what they're talking about, because if you actually read any of those links I posted that obviously got under your skin, you'd see where you're wrong. And no, I did not just cluelessly go to google and wiki and start cramming info, as there were no wiki or google links in my posts -- just answers from biologists and a frickin' college forum. I looked into ATP and the Kreb's cycle myself months ago, and you can even see in Subcool's Super Soil 101 thread where I asked him about it. Judging by your post count and your stupid name, you're probably some limp-dick teenager who's never germinated a seed, let alone performed your science experiments on cannabis plants, so I'm betting once you stop trolling "experienced growers" threads, we probably won't hear much from you. At least that's my hope, anyway.

skunkushybrid01 said:

Here is where you anthropomorphised the subject. Plants do not THINK.



Who cares what he needs? I don't believe I once quoted the OP. These are public threads, anyone can read them. I'm not just telling him, i'm telling everybody in the hope that somebody who actually know what they're talking about will come and join in the conversation. You're not that person, by the way. The OP matters not a jot... not like his plants are going to die unless he gets the right answer




Seriously man, a quick read on google isn't going to get you through this...

The kreb's cycle and everything else you might consider a dark response happen during photosynthesis too. They need photosynthesis to begin with. cellular respiration happens all the time so has little to do with the lights being out, aside from the fact that the plant can't make ATP anymore.

The plant doesn't use more ATP during the dark, it just doesn't create any more. So the ATP it is using is simply depleting the stores.

Look man, i can tell you have no idea what you're talking about and are winging your way through google.

and please... no more yahoo or wiki links. Takes a lot to delete them when i'm quoting you.

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AND YOU STILL HAVE NOT GIVEN PANIC420 AN ANSWER TO HIS "Q". And yes the forums are public...But how about actually answering the guy who posted the thread instead of this random crap that I bet no one REALLY considers when growing weed. You would know this if you actually grew a plant. But, it is good info, non the least bro + rep...nahhh never mind

nicely said j dub...and if u don't care what i need or what i asked get the fuck off my thread your the only stupid fuck arguing all i asked was a simple question not for u to get ur thong crammed up your ass...so since u don't care what i need or have a clue what my original question was or what the hell ur talkin about...so go finger urself and get off my thread...

pAn1c420 said:

ok let me rephrase the question...Does giving the plant 48 to 72 hours of darkness before u cut it down make a difference???

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I remember BOG back in the day recommended this technique. I can tell you it doesn't do anything so don't even waste your time.

pAn1c420 said:

for those that talked about losing yield...i'm already goin to get some really airy buds and not to much yield...so i'm just trying to see what i can do to get as much resin or trichs before i cut down cuz i already know the yield is goin to be shitty do to the nugs not being dense...

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very understandable that you'd try to offset airy buds by increasing resin production. finishing w/ a 48 hr dark is just one more way to maximize an already productive garden. if your garden is lacking it's hard to say if it'll be noticeable, that's what experimentation is all about.

a friend just put her garden through 72hrs dark and her nycdiesel hermied on her (probably due to soma's breeding style). so some strains will do better with 48hrs then chop. good luck!