Fan Leafs. Blockers of Light Or Energy Producers???

squarefodder said:

@ Cerberus, I understand your point of environmental controls. There is no doubt that these controls help the plant grow healthier. If you look at the methods of our controlled environments you will see that they are helping the plant grow stronger/faster/ and produce more by enhancing their abilities.We give them lights, Mylar, soil, ph meters, humidity control, Nutrients, lst, supercrop, UB top, on and on. They all play a specific role, to improve and control growth!!! The new growth allows the plant to spread its surface area out and catch more rays for photosynthesis. WE the gardeners get play with that new growth to achieve MAX photosynthesis and MAX yield. The plant will respond to our controls with growth, Don't cut that growth away before the plant has decided if its producing or not.

The plant is programmed to discard leaves when necessary just as we are programmed to do our bodily functions when necessary.

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See here is a general disscusion right. and i see what you are saying. Maybe what we have is a miscommunication on removal of fan leaves.

here is a pic of a room I had just removed all the detremental fan leaves. As you can see, it's hydro, i have tomato cages to seperate and support branches and so forth..



I am not talking eve leaf right? I am just talking about the ones that grow into other branches, or fold into flower sites, maybe the ones the grow into the stalk of the plant..

Do you rim branches? take small branches off in the beginning of flower to direct energy to the larger flower sites? (I hope so )

as the gardener i decide what is best for the plant. its just my job to make good descisions.. if i take to much, a failed. converse if i don't clean enough, i hve failed.. failed to reach full potential..



sorry for how this must read.. i just burnt a 3g blunt to the dome.. its been a rough day in real life world...
lol

peace man

cerberus said:

See here is a general disscusion right. and i see what you are saying. Maybe what we have is a miscommunication on removal of fan leaves.

here is a pic of a room I had just removed all the detremental fan leaves. As you can see, it's hydro, i have tomato cages to seperate and support branches and so forth..

View attachment 2173534

I am not talking eve leaf right? I am just talking about the ones that grow into other branches, or fold into flower sites, maybe the ones the grow into the stalk of the plant..

Do you rim branches? take small branches off in the beginning of flower to direct energy to the larger flower sites? (I hope so )

as the gardener i decide what is best for the plant. its just my job to make good descisions.. if i take to much, a failed. converse if i don't clean enough, i hve failed.. failed to reach full potential..



sorry for how this must read.. i just burnt a 3g blunt to the dome.. its been a rough day in real life world...
lol

peace man

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That looks like a very nice grow [FONT=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]You cannot give Reputation to the same post twice [/FONT]

I let my plants eat all the nutes out of the leaf before discarding it. I figure that there is 50 cents worth of fox farms in each leaf and who knows how much in electricity LOL gotta get as much energy into the plant as posible!! . It works for me and what your doing works for you. Other peoples millage may vary.

I am high

squarefodder said:

That looks like a very nice grow You cannot give Reputation to the same post twice

I let my plants eat all the nutes out of the leaf before discarding it. I figure that there is 50 cents worth of fox farms in each leaf and who knows how much in electricity LOL gotta get as much energy into the plant as posible!! . It works for me and what your doing works for you. Other peoples millage may vary.

I am high

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right on man. and thats the point. you have different genetics then i do, different feed, different growth designs (tomato cage vs bamboo stick). my whole side to this disscusion is that, one size fits all answers generally are not correct. some grow methods require leaf removal. On the other hand, my TLO garden almost never gets a leaf taken, there is no need for it in there..

This discussion was held at one of the first cannabis forums site which I modded solely between me and others 12 years ago. I pulled up this archive which my friend "Thunderbunny" summed up well during the discussion. Get the book if you want the facts.

In his book "Marijuana Botany" Robert Connell Clarke states that:

Leafing is one of the most misunderstood techniques of drug cannabis cultivation.

He states that there are 3 common beliefs:

1.) Large shade leaves draw energy from the flowering plant and by removing the large fan leaves surplus energy will be available and larger floral clusters will be formed,

2.) Some feel that the inhibitors of flowering, synthesized in the fan leaves during the long non-inductive days of summer, may be stored in the older leaves that were formed during the non-inductive photoperiod. Possibly, if these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will proceed to flower more quickly when the shorter days of fall trigger flowering,

3.) Large fan leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small, atrophied, interior floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.

Few, if any, of the theories behind leafing have any validity.

The large fan leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth substances. They do create shade, but at the same time they are collecting valuable solar energy and producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant. Premature removal of the fan leaves may cause stunting because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced.

Most cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage and this trend continues on until senescence (death of the plant). He also states that removing large amounts of fan leaves will also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause SEX REVERSAL resulting from a metabolic imbalance.

He goes on to say that cannabis grows largest when provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and water, and left alone to grow and mature naturally. It must be remembered that any alteration of the natural life cycle of cannabis will affect productivity.

This book has served me very well in my 12+ years of growing--I would have to side with RC on this one--those fan leaves are there for a reason--they don't grow just for show--leave them on there and let that plant grow naturally

Good Luck,
Thunderbunny

That's it you better make like a Tree and get the hell outta here!!!! Oops I meant Leaf

cerberus said:

here is a pic of a room I had just removed all the detremental fan leaves. As you can see, it's hydro, i have tomato cages to seperate and support branches and so forth..

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And just how detrimental are they?

I'll repeat my question which you dodged -

Uncle Ben said:

Being in the camp that leaves all leaves on, and leaving it up to mother nature to do her thing, would some of you botanical genius's tell me how leaving a fan leaf alone hurts the plant's production?

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take small branches off in the beginning of flower to direct energy to the larger flower sites? (I hope so )

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Would this be cosmic or alien energy?

as the gardener i decide what is best for the plant. its just my job to make good descisions.. if i take to much, a failed. converse if i don't clean enough, i hve failed.. failed to reach full potential..

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Uh oh....Houston, I think we have a problem here. It's all about photosynthesis. What's this "energy" stuff everyone keeps throwing around?

Uncle Ben said:

And just how detrimental are they?

I'll repeat my question which you dodged -



Would this be cosmic or alien energy?



Uh oh....Houston, I think we have a problem here. It's all about photosynthesis. What's this "energy" stuff everyone keeps throwing around?

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Glad you are still teaching people the proper ways to grow. IF some people would drop there ego's and just pay attention, they might learn something. Remember fdd's comment on this subject

STUPID NATURE, PUT ALL THESE FAN LEAVES IN THE WAY!!!!

Uncle Ben said:

And just how detrimental are they?

I'll repeat my question which you dodged -

they are determental enough to help promote mold growth in the area that air is completely stopped. they are determental enough to see undeveloped flowers that where burried under mal formed leaves. they are determental enough that my logs show a better crop with limited management of the canopy..


Would this be cosmic or alien energy?

are you serious? you are asking about plants shuttling energy from damaged or amputated sites to flourishing ones? really?

Uh oh....Houston, I think we have a problem here. It's all about photosynthesis. What's this "energy" stuff everyone keeps throwing around?

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really? what do you think photosyntheses is for? what does the chlorophyl do with the sunlight? it converts the suns ENERGY to ENERGY the plant can use. when plants consume organic food (lets keep it natural), its through micro's that converted mineral elements (a raw form of energy) into a form the plants can digest..

come on man, your smarter than that. now your just angry and looking for a fight but in the proccess your making claims i know you know are false..


i mean whats all that topping with UB about?

cerberus said:

really? what do you think photosyntheses is for? what does the chlorophyl do with the sunlight? it converts the suns ENERGY to ENERGY the plant can use. when plants consume organic food (lets keep it natural), its through micro's that converted mineral elements (a raw form of energy) into a form the plants can digest..

come on man, your smarter than that. now your just angry and looking for a fight but in the proccess your making claims i know you know are false..


i mean whats all that topping with UB about?

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You're spinning. When I cut above a node, I get double to quadruple the foliar output. Try it sometime. Has nothing to do with this discussion. Again, what is the ill effect to the plant by leaving on a fan leaf? That's right, there is no "detriment".

"Energy", what a loose word around these parts. Only the sun has "energy", in the form of photons. The plant takes that solar energy and thru the process of photosynthesis in the chloroplasts produces simple and complex carbohydrates which in turn gets converted into cellulose, proteins, hormones, amino acids, enzymes, etc. that the plant uses for cell division and elongation.

I'll tell you what's natural, a box of fertilizer in the form of mineral salts and a pair of Felco #2's (hand pruners). Speaking of loose words, touchy feely stuff, "organic". "Natural"....90% a scam. If it weren't for the chemicals initially or eventually contained in "organic" plant foods, it would be useless.

Uncle Ben

i'll skip over the semantics debate of energy.. IT's hard though..

hand pruners? to take branches off? So my point is this; every grow operation will have it's own requirements. wether it be environmental control or plant management; for example you manage your plants top nodal output but cutting the nod. which makes nodes at even elevation, which in turn sends the message to the plants to direct its growth hormones (energy/efforts) to those heads equally. it's similar to supercroppng, which is the same thing pine tree farmers do, to farm straight polls. So to answer your question (again) and to finish making my point. the determent (in my grow) is the loss of air movement around the stoma of the plant, the vigorous growth of my plants causes (mostly only in indica/afganica varieties) leafs to grow malformed and into flower sites, and finally mold prevention, again with the shorter stouter indica's (which are more mold prone) the lack of air flow from an untrimmed bush promotes stagnate water/air (leaves laying on top of each other build a water barrier between them from their sweating)..

and let me tell you whats natural, not a box of fertilizers and salts.. jesus christ.. but a true living organic soil, maybe you should check out TheRev.. AACT's, a proper bio-devers living sphere in your living soil. not chelated nutirents. I have three rooms only one of which is hydro, and not be accident that is the only room i need to de-leaf in. My TLO (true living Organics) rooms don't get that same treatment, they don't need it..

:/

I don't know how many times I can answer your question man.. i hope this works for you..

Plants are meant to live outside not inside. We cultivate our strains under specific variables (inside/outside) that vary from Gardener to Gardener. Cerberus is correct that one size does not fit all. However its hard for me to agree that trimming healthy fan leaves is a good idea or that they block light to the bud.

is the bud part of the plant? yes.
is the bud a separate plant that needs its own root system and leaves? no. its a flower produced by said plant.

Therefore keeping the fan leaf on the plant can do no harm to the plant nor its flowers. They are both the same plant.

The inverse can not have the same outcome.
FACT: Removing that healthy leaf "blocking the bud" WILL remove nutrients from the plant. Therefore removing available nutrients from the flower that the plant is producing.

Removing diseased leaves from the bottom of the plant because your concerned about mold buildup is really another topic.

I can see your point and concern.

my thought/opinion is, well, obviously i disagree, lol, Do you remove branches early into flower or late veg? say the secondary branches. the real little ones that pop up right at the first 1.5 week point after flipping 12/12? I ask because, I do. I believe the pic shows i don't subscribe to lollipopping but i do trim branches that i know will only produce flowers i will likely discard (make into hash) at the end of the process. These are healthy parts of the plant, where I decided their final results did not warrant the plants efforts, I remove the limbs to allow the finite resources of the roots system to dedicate it's "energy"/efforts to the remaining flower sites. This is another situation than leaves but i believe it serves as a good juxtapose to your "keeping the fan leaf on the plant can do no harm.." concept. Although it may not cause it harm, my job isn't to stop harm but to encourage "overgrowth". not adding co2 won't cause it harm but adding it certainly can help.. i believe the blocked fan leaves fall in this same catagory. Although leaving them all on will cause no harm, proper selection and removal will promote better results.

different strokes for different folks.

cerberus said:

I can see your point and concern.

my thought/opinion is, well, obviously i disagree, lol, Do you remove branches early into flower or late veg? say the secondary branches. the real little ones that pop up right at the first 1.5 week point after flipping 12/12? I ask because, I do. I believe the pic shows i don't subscribe to lollipopping but i do trim branches that i know will only produce flowers i will likely discard (make into hash) at the end of the process. These are healthy parts of the plant, where I decided their final results did not warrant the plants efforts, I remove the limbs to allow the finite resources of the roots system to dedicate it's "energy"/efforts to the remaining flower sites. This is another situation than leaves but i believe it serves as a good juxtapose to your "keeping the fan leaf on the plant can do no harm.." concept. Although it may not cause it harm, my job isn't to stop harm but to encourage "overgrowth". not adding co2 won't cause it harm but adding it certainly can help.. i believe the blocked fan leaves fall in this same catagory. Although leaving them all on will cause no harm, proper selection and removal will promote better results.

different strokes for different folks.

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I guess what we have here is the same type of discussion that tomato growers have. They debate over pinching "suckers", some swear by it other swear against it lol.

I don't cut leaves and do fine. Growers like Cerberus do cut leaves and do well too.

I have respect for all styles of growing. Do what fits your life style and don't look back

Question? what do you do with the bottom branches with the shitty buds? J/K What I'm really trying to say is you can leave the bottom stuff but you end up throwing it in the trash anyway. As for removing leaves unnecessarily is a no no.

I say just leave the plant alone completely, and just use the bottom stuff for hash.I always wondered if the plant actually focuses energy toward the buds receiving light, or if it focuses its energy on healing all the branches we cut off! I understand taking dead leaves and little stuff blocking airflow, but why hack thick branches (that would produce a decent nug, with a lot of thc)just because its not receiving direct light. By leaving the branch grow, wouldnt it be beneficial to the rest of the plant by reducing stress? In turn letting the plant focus all its energy into flower and thc production, instead of having to repair itself?

This is a topic that the masses will never agree on, that's ok. IMO if you are "trying" to keep smaller plants and growig sog, you should definately trim the fan leaves. If you are growing larger plants, and you want multiple colas, well I still dont thinking pruning most of the fan leaves is a bad thing lol, check this thread out. It is a grow journal on another site, and the grower trims half of his crop and does not trim the other half, he basically tests the arguement for us. Well as you can see, actually ya I'll let you read it. Start from page one it's a solid journal, but on the page that I posted here he supplies pictures for you and even states himself that the plants that had their fan leaves removed are clearly not showing any signs of less bud production. At the end he compares the final harvests and you can see the results for yourself...

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/completed-journals/138874-come-sog-me-112-plant-2-liter-hempy-sog-11.html

*I understand that this does not prove anything. I mean this is one test on one strain in one environment by one man, or woman. Who knows maybe this strain they used grows bigger without fan leaves and others do not, or maybe rmoving fan leaves does not reduce the overall size and or quality of the plant, tough question.

REALSTYLES said:

Question? what do you do with the bottom branches with the shitty buds? J/K What I'm really trying to say is you can leave the bottom stuff but you end up throwing it in the trash anyway. As for removing leaves unnecessarily is a no no.

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You harvest the fat colas and put the plant back under the lights to bulk up the lower part. Course you have to have leaves to do that. Guess I need to remind folks what drives production - it's leaves.

I think for 90% of those who are in the camp of removing leaves it's a cover up for their lack of horticultural skills - it's not an issue of purposely removing them. Due to their practices they can't/don't retain large fan leaves in a healthy state until harvest so they do this sour grapes thing - "oh well, didn't need them anyway".

My harvest photo avatar says it all. If I lost any fan leaves (and I don't remember losing any contrary to forum paradigm) it was just a few. That cola was rock solid bud, 6" across and about 16" tall. Note the heavy bud production at the lower levels!



UB

Uncle Ben said:

You harvest the fat colas and put the plant back under the lights to bulk up the lower part. Course you have to have leaves to do that. Guess I need to remind folks what drives production - it's leaves.

I think for 90% of those who are in the camp of removing leaves it's a cover up for their lack of horticultural skills - it's not an issue of purposely removing them. Due to their practices they can't/don't retain large fan leaves in a healthy state until harvest so they do this sour grapes thing - "oh well, didn't need them anyway".

My harvest photo avatar says it all. If I lost any fan leaves (and I don't remember losing any contrary to forum paradigm) it was just a few. That cola was rock solid bud, 6" across and about 16" tall. Note the heavy bud production at the lower levels!

View attachment 2176328

UB

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That plant is not bushy so the light goes thru. Plus how much light was used? Great looking buds though. But some plants have heavy foliage like this one


so leaving the bottom leaves will help my production? The leaves that don't get any light.

you can't see through that plant but can see through yours take in mind they're different genetics so the plant you have doesn't need the bottom leaves removed. Picture say's it all.

I have always followed UB's theory with great results, I have a couple plants ready for the switch, I'm going to defoliate one of them and I'm going to see for myself if there is any difference. Stay tuned, i'll post updates.