First kid on the block...

captainmorgan

captainmorgan

Well-Known Member
I love how you embellish what others say like I'm screaming like a cult member at my keyboard,lies. You have quite a imagination and are a real comedian. I picture you in full Nazi dress banging away at your keyboard like a madman. Most of the time I'm laughing at you and I thought about a drinking game we should play,chug a beer every time you say strawman.
 
FranJan

FranJan

Well-Known Member
captainmorgan said:
Keep at it pussy cat,strawman.:lol:
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What kills me is that this "guy" who knows EVERYTHING about indoor growing yet knows nothing about LEDs or LED growing can even have a valid opinion here. What a hypocrite! And this is all about PetFlora and that other knowitall braniac btw. Scativied got his feelings hurt in 2014 and is still striking out at others. He's nothing but a prejudiced hypocritical coward of a man-child and has nothing to teach anyone if you haven't noticed. He's just a lawyer on his best days.
 
Growmau5

Growmau5

Well-Known Member
@Sativied I recall reading alot of your posts over the last year, and I always thought you were a pretty cool knowledgeable guy. why all the sudden the lashing out and slamming all us LED guys as a whole? most of us are hobbiests that like to tinker and don't mind investing in efficiency for our home gardens>

moreover, I can't afford to do the custom car I always wanted to build, so this hobby gives me that creative outlet to maximize and fine tune. For a lot of us , its not about the bickering as to whats better or high-horsing HPS growers, its about the love of the herb.
 
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sixstring2112

sixstring2112

Well-Known Member
Lots of good points and lots of bs in here lol.
First i really wantto see a link to a decent 600w setup for 200 bucks.most hid ballast have a 5 year warranty,1 or 2 years full,then prorated. Also bulbs need replacing 2 x a year unless its a gavita or decent de lamp.also greenjeans prices on these diy setups that will compete with a 600 are NOT 900,more like 700 if i recall plus im sure if you were buying that many he would knock that down even more so lets say 600 bucks since we like to lowball everything here haha.
How many warehouse grows do you see with 600w setups?
I run 12kw currently almost all of it is 600w lamps some are gavita 750w.please post some pics for me of the 1 pound plants so i can get an idea if led will even suit your style.
Obviously in the high dessert hid will cost more to run than it will in Alaska so location plays a huge part in selecting indoor lights.like was mentioned,hid will probably see restrictions soon if not be banned all together. Our old outdated power grid just cant keep up with all this additional power usage from legal indoor grows. At some point state and local governments will step in and make changes and you should keep all new lighting tech as an option imo as we may be forced to use led at some point. What will you do if they decide hps is too dangerous to use and they put some fucked up tax on it and a 600w lamp is 500 bucks?
It could happen guys,fuck i remember when cigs were 30cents a pack lol.
I have a shitty mars led panel that grows decent size plants,almost yields like my 600w.but every plant i have pulled from under that panel has got rave reviews. My patients dont know shit about my lighting setups,but they keep saying the same thing when i pull plantz from the led. They say hey man that last masterkush came out really good,what did you do?been running the mk for over 6 years so they know it well.
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Growmau5 said:
@Sativied I recall reading alot of your posts over the last year, and I always thought you were a pretty cool knowledgeable guy. why all the sudden the lashing out and slamming all us LED guys as a whole?
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"Why do led fans always need to make false assumptions in their questions?" See what I did there? You ask me why I do something I don't. Converted from nonsense format, the statement that I suddenly lash out, slam all you led guys, and am no longer the same pretty, cool, knowledgable guy, is all false. If it makes it easier for you to think otherwise and talk about me instead of lights and plants you are officially ready to join the cult. :lol: Strawman and ad hominem in one, you could be their Tom Cruise.
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Rahz said:
You missed the humor. PPFD and it's effect on yield has been discussed here for at least a year. Studies show a curve in photosynthetic efficiency, but how much of a curve depends on the source with some individuals experiencing near linear results up to and over 1000. I tend to agree with your understanding of the relationship between PPFD and yield but the shape of the curve is debatable.
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Yeah went straight under my head, I expect trolling... Err... "humor" to be a little bit more clever. Still funny for me anyway as the difference between ppf and ppfd is illustrative for some of the claims that have been made in the past and I was referring to.

That gavita article is over 4 years old, I think it's written by whazzup himself, was admin at local dutch grow forums, the title and its contents are widely spread and well known here. I've known about that relationship for about 22 years, we didn't call it the effect of ppfd on yield though, it was just experience. Some try to push yield by covering more space with a light, others by putting more light in a closet.

I'm sure the accuracy and even the "shape" is debatable and above all depends on additional factors. Diminishing returns kick in sooner or later though, and just as with efficiency droop from higher current/voltage/temp that can be turned in to a postive, but at some point comes with a cost. When you trim everything clean to commercial size nuggets no stems, no leaves, it is often more obvious.
 
Growmau5

Growmau5

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
"Why do led fans always need to make false assumptions in their questions?" See what I did there? You ask me why I do something I don't. Converted from nonsense format, the statement that I suddenly lash out, slam all you led guys, and am no longer the same pretty, cool, knowledgable guy, is all false. If it makes it easier for you to think otherwise and talk about me instead of lights and plants you are officially ready to join the cult. :lol: Strawman and ad hominem in one, you could be their Tom Cruise.
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ok man, uhh maybe I am reading your comments wrong or something or catching a vibe that isnt intended. best wishes
 
Rahz

Rahz

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
Yeah went straight under my head, I expect trolling... Err... "humor" to be a little bit more clever. Still funny for me anyway as the difference between ppf and ppfd is illustrative for some of the claims that have been made in the past and I was referring to.

That gavita article is over 4 years old, I think it's written by whazzup himself, was admin at local dutch grow forums, the title and its contents are widely spread and well known here. I've known about that relationship for about 22 years, we didn't call it the effect of ppfd on yield though, it was just experience. Some try to push yield by covering more space with a light, others by putting more light in a closet.

I'm sure the accuracy and even the "shape" is debatable and above all depends on additional factors. Diminishing returns kick in sooner or later though, and just as with efficiency droop from higher current/voltage/temp that can be turned in to a postive, but at some point comes with a cost. When you trim everything clean to commercial size nuggets no stems, no leaves, it is often more obvious.
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I don't know what claims you're referring to, but what kind of ranges do you like to work with, in both flower and vegetative state? The curve for photosynthetic response I've posted before could be seen to have a sweet spot around 800-900, maybe a little lower or higher, 500 around the minimum range, 1100-1200 without getting too crazy about it. If a person has lots of space I've suggested 650 before. If a person has limited space it might be worth it to run 800-900 or higher.
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Rahz said:
I don't know what claims you're referring to, but what kind of ranges do you like to work with, in both flower and vegetative state? The curve for photosynthetic response I've posted before could be seen to have a sweet spot around 800-900, maybe a little lower or higher, 500 around the minimum range, 1100-1200 without getting too crazy about it. If a person has lots of space I've suggested 650 before. If a person has limited space it might be worth it to run 800-900 or higher.
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With hps you're obviously going to get problems with heat when you want very high ppfd so it's not like I have that large of a range to choose from. With led I would go for the high end as the goal is not to save energy by sacrificing yield potential.

And not just based on that graph, I have older data too. 600watt on a square meter is not just a lucky fit. It's the result of Zondervan, the guy who made ballast for consumers so we could run those phillips bulbs in our homes, having it tested by photobiologists and horticulture lighting experts at philips. I have part of that info. I also have that ballast lol. Not in use since a few weeks. With tens of thousands of growers and limited different types and amount of light that relationship between ppfd and gpw and gr/sqft became quite obvious and common sense.

This may come as a mindfuck to some here but I posted a thread about cree leds with some essentials, efficiency table from supra, driver table, some a x v = c examples lol, in the main dutch grow forums. A week later and some discussion, some examples from here and growmau, a handful of growers already ordered, including one of the better growers (breeder at NAW seeds) and many more are excited.

Growers have been hooking up ballasts and relay boards here for years. It's no different, just minor details, matter of doing, and doesn't require any special knowledge or hype. Cxb 36v on 1400ma vs 700 illustrates a lot. Less heat and less electricity is more stealth and that is worth good money for some, especially with the daily raids. Figured I'd be nice and point out cree cobs and stress the ability to buy higher gpw. It was a preemptive strike to tone down future hype to more realistic expecations but I think I spawned a whole new section for the led cult.

It's quite funny to see some responses. A relevant example, one guy wanted to replace 2400watt hps (dimlux with boost) with 2400watt cobs (48 at 50w), in a 5x10 tent. He was thinking that 1.5gpw comes from 50% more bud instead of a power saving, but yeah space is limited.

Anyway, I recommended 800-900ppfd there too. I'm sure some will push it to lower and others to higher. Based on that ppfd they do pretty much the same thing as how light recipes have been designed by philips and gavita for many years. Nowadays that includes led colors too. Starts with species and corresponding ppfd, total space, resulting total ppf, divide by umols from a light source and you know how many you need. A child can do the laundry.

We can debate whether that ppfd is optimal in different ways but once established for the plant species "having lots of space" doesn't and shouldn't affect the ppfd in that equation. Unless the goal is to claim high gpw :) But then I would instead recommend buying more cobs, running them softer and run 900ppfd on all the space available (and a test area for 1200 and 1500). For a farmer that is really an easy one. Especially since bud is worth more than electricity. The efficiency possibilities are great but not a goal by itself. Not wanting to waste energy should not lead to wasting space or light.
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
With hps you're obviously going to get problems with heat when you want very high ppfd so it's not like I have that large of a range to choose from. With led I would go for the high end as the goal is not to save energy by sacrificing yield potential.

And not just based on that graph, I have older data too. 600watt on a square meter is not just a lucky fit. It's the result of Zondervan, the guy who made ballast for consumers so we could run those phillips bulbs in our homes, having it tested by photobiologists and horticulture lighting experts at philips. I have part of that info. I also have that ballast lol. Not in use since a few weeks. With tens of thousands of growers and limited different types and amount of light that relationship between ppfd and gpw and gr/sqft became quite obvious and common sense.

This may come as a mindfuck to some here but I posted a thread about cree leds with some essentials, efficiency table from supra, driver table, some a x v = c examples lol, in the main dutch grow forums. A week later and some discussion, some examples from here and growmau, a handful of growers already ordered, including one of the better growers (breeder at NAW seeds) and many more are excited.

Growers have been hooking up ballasts and relay boards here for years. It's no different, just minor details, matter of doing, and doesn't require any special knowledge or hype. Cxb 36v on 1400ma vs 700 illustrates a lot. Less heat and less electricity is more stealth and that is worth good money for some, especially with the daily raids. Figured I'd be nice and point out cree cobs and stress the ability to buy higher gpw. It was a preemptive strike to tone down future hype to more realistic expecations but I think I spawned a whole new section for the led cult.

It's quite funny to see some responses. A relevant example, one guy wanted to replace 2400watt hps (dimlux with boost) with 2400watt cobs (48 at 50w), in a 5x10 tent. He was thinking that 1.5gpw comes from 50% more bud instead of a power saving, but yeah space is limited.

Anyway, I recommended 800-900ppfd there too. I'm sure some will push it to lower and others to higher. Based on that ppfd they do pretty much the same thing as how light recipes have been designed by philips and gavita for many years. Nowadays that includes led colors too. Starts with species and corresponding ppfd, total space, resulting total ppf, divide by umols from a light source and you know how many you need. A child can do the laundry.

We can debate whether that ppfd is optimal in different ways but once established for the plant species "having lots of space" doesn't and shouldn't affect the ppfd in that equation. Unless the goal is to claim high gpw :) But then I would instead recommend buying more cobs, running them softer and run 900ppfd on all the space available (and a test area for 1200 and 1500). For a farmer that is really an easy one. Especially since bud is worth more than electricity. The efficiency possibilities are great but not a goal by itself. Not wanting to waste energy should not lead to wasting space or light.
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Can you please explain to us how PPFD works again? Thanks.
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
@Sativied, I've got a hint for you. When you say it's PPFD that matters and not PPF, you're showing your lack of algebra skills.

I'll spell this out for you since it seems to soar right over your head.

If you have a lamp thats 100umol*s^-1 evenly distributed over a m^2 room, it should have an average PPFD of ~100umol*s^-1*m^-2.

What do you think happens when you double the PPF while keeping area the same? PPFD stays the same? When buying a light, PPF matters more than PPFD. You can turn a higher PPF into a higher PPFD or a greater area... DUH
 
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C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
@Sativied do you realize this thread was not created to ask which PPFD is optimal for growing plants, right? It was created to ask if it's practical to use COB lamps in a warehouse grow. Your argument is a straw man fallacy and a red herring fallacy which I already pointed out.

There are plenty of other threads for discussing the effects of PPFD on g/sqft and g/W. I'm still trying to figure out why you keep bringing this is up. You seem to think it's relevant, when it's really not. Even if some of us do grow at a lower PPFD, nobody is trying to deceive you. Red herring arguments and straw men arguments, however, are intended to deceive so cut it out please.
 
JorgeGonzales

JorgeGonzales

Well-Known Member
Are there hordes of assholes from the LED subforum invading every thread on RIU that mentions HPS with snide remarks and outright mockery for using antiquated and inefficient grow lights? Are mothers being insulted for giving birth to dimwitted morons who still use HPS?

Because that's pretty much the only explanation for these rants against "led fanboys" from @Sativied. That, or mental illness. Might as well be mouth-breathing youtube comments rallying against gay marriage. Us vs them, always needing an enemy. There are no sides, and why the fuck would anybody care where I put my penis, or what hangs over my plants?

And @Sativied there are probably pills for whatever the hell is wrong with you.
 
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a mongo frog

a mongo frog

Well-Known Member
JorgeGonzales said:
Are there hordes of assholes from the LED subforum invading every thread on RIU mentioning HPS with snide remarks and outright mockery for using antiquated and inefficient grow lights?
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Theres no threads to invade. What hps grower you know is making false claims that his bud is more potent and more resinous because of their lamps. Especially when only a select few led gardeners is actually backing their claims up with lab results. Bottom line is one still has to garden.
 
JorgeGonzales

JorgeGonzales

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
Every thread would be exaggerating but yes lol hordes of led fanboys have been trolling up every good discussion about led vs hps for years, fanatically, like savages. See for example an old DE vs led thread. They make all sorts of bold claims (read: lies) and when proven wrong with valid arguments they get really nasty and start trashtalking, as you and captain morgan and church and FanJan show so nicely in the thread. And when I respond they snitch to mods and get shit locked, deleted and people banned. Pathetic. It's classic led cult behavior, more than justifying my terms fanboys, Bibled, ledlogic, and my favorite, pretengineers.

You obviously don't know me and hate my arguments, so you led fans always resort to trying to demonize me to justify for yourself it's ok to be such a major douchebag and post nothing but butthurt personal attacks. That may work for you in your head, it doesn't change reality, it does not affect me, you only upset yourself. Such uncivilized behavior make you a bigger douchebag rendering your judgement meaningless. Just look at your own post lol, have I ever made such douchebags personal attacks to you? Exactly, horde member.

Stick to promoting your knock off philips 1211 gen 3 lol.
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I am only judging you by this thread, and your constant blather about led fanboys in this subforum. It's bizarrely obsessive behavior, especially the constant pigeonholing of every LED user into the enemy category. Why are you fighting a war in a weed forum? Is it worth it?

Honestly, I couldn't care less about arguments. HPS, LED, whatever. I just don't understand why you are here at all, waging an imaginary war against whatever clever-in-your-head names you come up with to insult people. I'm only surprised it wasn't LEDtard. You are about one step below ISIS in your fanaticism.

Again, there is probably a pill for this.
 
captainmorgan

captainmorgan

Well-Known Member
I love how you project your butthurt feelings and frustrations on everyone else. You constantly claim that everyone is screaming at their computer and generally losing their mind because you have such brilliant arguments. You constantly write these long diatribes that are laced with insults and vulgarity claiming everyone else is upset and childish. Try looking in the mirror,most of the time I laugh when you post your long winded nonsense. You must have some sort of obsession with LEDs and their users because you come here day after day,month after month and year after year spouting your nonsense. Have you ever thought about how much time you've wasted,probably not and do you think you have converted anyone here to your way of thinking,doubt that too.
 
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