First time with Coco - Seedlings looking rough -High Res Picks

TreePharm

TreePharm

Member
Hey everyone!

Thanks for taking the time to look at this post. I only have one grown under my belt with coco loco for my medium. The grow went amazing, but this second grow is making me work for it.

I decided to try straight coco and perlite and my seedlings are struggling. They are about 3 weeks old and I did my first feeding with 100ppm. It turns out that was too much because I have nute burn on some of the tips. Now I am starting to see a problem I cant identify. I did switch lights as well with this grow using the nextlight veg8 about 35 inches above the seedlings.

Could this be light burn? or nutes? MY ph is around 5.90 - 6.

Seedling A.jpg Seedling A.jpg Seedling-C.jpg

Thanks!!
 

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C

CannaCountry

Well-Known Member
Awfully small plants for being 3 weeks old. How did you arrive at a feed of 100 ppm? I'm guessing you're using RO water to start with? What did you add to your water to get the 100 ppm ?

It's been my experience that seedlings need to be fed in coco from the start. I know a lot of people dance around the fear of burning the plants but your coco is relatively inert which means the only thing for your plant to eat is what you're putting into the feed. Don't be scared to feed them, just don't over do it.
 
JohnDee

JohnDee

Well-Known Member
Hi TreePharm,
Is this the same coco you used in first grow? Not sure why this one would go sour. One thing that will stunt seedlings is sodium. Coco is exposed to loads of sea salt and it takes lots of flushing to get it out.

What I'd do is to put together a very mild nute solution with a little Mg and ph'd to 6.2 and water them profusely and daily. This will bring new nutes to rootzone and hopefully get rid of any Na.
Just a thought...
JD
 
Thegermling

Thegermling

Well-Known Member
JohnDee said:
water them profusely and daily
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Basically. @TreePharm Here are my 9 day old seedlings...
IMG_1438.JPG
The stems are long, I know, but I wont transplant these until theyre like 8-12". I dont know how I got burnt tips on that one. I flushed my canna coco to under 30ppms (700 scale). I too fed at 100ppm (700 scale) and they got burnt. But when I checked the runoff ppm of the seedling with the burnt tips it was around 180-200ppm. I water EVERY DAY. When I first started seedlings in pure coco, in solo cups, I would wait for the coco to dry out a bit (have you heard of the "wet/dry" cycle to promote root growth?). I'm guessing I didnt do it right because my seedlings were not growing at all for 2 weeks. So I now water everyday. If you dont the roots dont get fresh oxygen and they dont grow. Check your runoff and flush if you need to. Hope it works for ya!
 
TreePharm

TreePharm

Member
CannaCountry said:
Awfully small plants for being 3 weeks old. How did you arrive at a feed of 100 ppm? I'm guessing you're using RO water to start with? What did you add to your water to get the 100 ppm ?

It's been my experience that seedlings need to be fed in coco from the start. I know a lot of people dance around the fear of burning the plants but your coco is relatively inert which means the only thing for your plant to eat is what you're putting into the feed. Don't be scared to feed them, just don't over do it.
Click to expand...
Hey CannaCountry, I am using RO water. I am feeding with Foxfarm Grow big (6-4-4-), Big Bloom (0-0.5-0.7) and Cal-mag. I have a few of these seedlings in rockwool cubes that are doing the same thing... I should of mentioned the rockwool cube part but it escaped me.
 
TreePharm

TreePharm

Member
Update: Thanks for all the advice everyone. I had a couple of seedlings still in rockwool cubes that I didn't transplant. They looked pretty good yesterday, but today they are showing the same signs as my plants in coco. This makes things even more confusing, but I guess it eliminates the problem being my coco.
 
Dynamo626

Dynamo626

Well-Known Member
Thegermling said:
Basically. @TreePharm Here are my 9 day old seedlings...
View attachment 4215687
The stems are long, I know, but I wont transplant these until theyre like 8-12". I dont know how I got burnt tips on that one. I flushed my canna coco to under 30ppms (700 scale). I too fed at 100ppm (700 scale) and they got burnt. But when I checked the runoff ppm of the seedling with the burnt tips it was around 180-200ppm. I water EVERY DAY. When I first started seedlings in pure coco, in solo cups, I would wait for the coco to dry out a bit (have you heard of the "wet/dry" cycle to promote root growth?). I'm guessing I didnt do it right because my seedlings were not growing at all for 2 weeks. So I now water everyday. If you dont the roots dont get fresh oxygen and they dont grow. Check your runoff and flush if you need to. Hope it works for ya!
Click to expand...
Looks like uv damage some strain seedlings are much more sensitive than others
 
C

CannaCountry

Well-Known Member
TreePharm said:
Hey CannaCountry, I am using RO water. I am feeding with Foxfarm Grow big (6-4-4-), Big Bloom (0-0.5-0.7) and Cal-mag. I have a few of these seedlings in rockwool cubes that are doing the same thing... I should of mentioned the rockwool cube part but it escaped me.
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So you've eliminated your mediums as the variable, so I'd move on to your feed. If it were me, I'd shoot for a little more feed percentage. I don't think light is your issue, although I don't have specific experience with your light, so I may be wrong. At any rate try to be patient and give them a few days. They'll respond quickly if they're happy.
 
NoviceKushVillage

NoviceKushVillage

Member
Would love to get some opinions on rate of growth as well with a very similar setup.

Babies are in 50/50 canna coco coir/perlite under a full spectrum 700w LED viparspectra (Although it has separate controls for red, white and blue—So i have red either off or just on, white between 25 - 100% and blue on 100%) As this allows temperature to remain 22 C (71.6 F) -> 26 C (79 F) with 50% - 60% RH. Would love any input into spectrum confirmation for seedling --> early veg.

So germinated 10 Barneys farm fem critical kush in glass of water at 5.8ph in dark cupboard. After 72 hours tap-root became clear and so buried in solo cups. They all sprouted the following 5-6 days. Since breaking ground it’s been 17 days as seen in photos attached, and since first germination this means its been 21 days + the 72 hours in the cup.

Soaked the coco coir initially in mix of 25% a+b have fed this and then have added rhizatonic to feed since second week. However I have been allowing the substrate to get 70% dry before watering again, and after reading above think this maybe an issue. Although I've seen what i thought was nutrient burn in the purple of veins in leafs and on stems, and because on 1 of the pheno's didn't handle the situation well, that initial leaves that i cut off looked very similar to @TreePharm but much worse; So have in fact been not watering as much.

I'll be picking up a TDS reader asap so can get PPM as last one has died on me, think might be to high ppm and not enough watering now.

But is this type of grown considerably behind what you've experienced? It's basically a 100% indica as well.

much love
 

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Thegermling

Thegermling

Well-Known Member
NoviceKushVillage said:
Would love to get some opinions on rate of growth as well with a very similar setup.

Babies are in 50/50 canna coco coir/perlite under a full spectrum 700w LED viparspectra (Although it has separate controls for red, white and blue—So i have red either off or just on, white between 25 - 100% and blue on 100%) As this allows temperature to remain 22 C (71.6 F) -> 26 C (79 F) with 50% - 60% RH. Would love any input into spectrum confirmation for seedling --> early veg.

So germinated 10 Barneys farm fem critical kush in glass of water at 5.8ph in dark cupboard. After 72 hours tap-root became clear and so buried in solo cups. They all sprouted the following 5-6 days. Since breaking ground it’s been 17 days as seen in photos attached, and since first germination this means its been 21 days + the 72 hours in the cup.

Soaked the coco coir initially in mix of 25% a+b have fed this and then have added rhizatonic to feed since second week. However I have been allowing the substrate to get 70% dry before watering again, and after reading above think this maybe an issue. Although I've seen what i thought was nutrient burn in the purple of veins in leafs and on stems, and because on 1 of the pheno's didn't handle the situation well, that initial leaves that i cut off looked very similar to @TreePharm but much worse; So have in fact been not watering as much.

I'll be picking up a TDS reader asap so can get PPM as last one has died on me, think might be to high ppm and not enough watering now.

But is this type of grown considerably behind what you've experienced? It's basically a 100% indica as well.

much love
Click to expand...
Blue spectrum is best for the vegatative stage. I use 4000k leds. Try not to go beyond 5000k (on leds) its not worth it (https://horticulturelightinggroup.com/blogs/news/5000k-fluorescent-t5-vs-5000k-led-spectrum).
Bro these are my seedlings I posted above, in pure coco, they are 17 days old...
IMG_1441.JPG
Water them every day man. If you let the coco dry out the EC climbs up. And it can cause nute burn or a nutrient lockout. It seems counterintuitive to water every day but trust me on this. You put perlite in your coco which dries it out even faster. Water EVERY DAY (in coco mixes). If you try coco again one day, dont add anything to it. Good luck!
 
NoviceKushVillage

NoviceKushVillage

Member
Thegermling said:
Blue spectrum is best for the vegatative stage. I use 4000k leds.
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Absolute legend, really appreciate your input! Killer looking babies as well, healthy as <3

I'm a bit confused for the lighting though— So blue is best for veg, typically between 400-500nm? However you're saying CTT is the more significant factor and that it needs to be around 4000k for veg? I'm probably wrong, but if CCT is how the hue of white appears to the human eye, then isn't 4000k appearing much more white then blue as in your picture above? Translating this then to my LED array, which has separate controls for red, white and blue—Should i get maximize the white light over the blue light then? Or is the blue still better as it's likely only 400-500nm rather then the entire spectrum which the white would cover? Or is this impossible to determine without a spectrometer? As i'd likely be able to mix the blue and white until i achieved 4000k output?

Thegermling said:
Water them every day man. If you let the coco dry out the EC climbs up. And it can cause nute burn or a nutrient lockout. It seems counterintuitive to water every day but trust me on this. You put perlite in your coco which dries it out even faster. Water EVERY DAY (in coco mixes). If you try coco again one day, dont add anything to it. Good luck!
Click to expand...
Arh thankyou! This is surely the reason for most of the delay! As even though mine are also beginning to develop their next set of leaves following their second 3 finger leaves, mine are miniature! But true, surprised I haven't read this anywhere else, as I swear I've even read others advising to let even coco coir dry out, but this makes a lot of sense! I might transplant to direct coco now you've mentioned that; So the perlite simply dries iout the substrate even faster? Also how much would you water for the solo cups, till run-off?

Sorry to spam you, to many variables hahaha ! But thanks again!!
 
Thegermling

Thegermling

Well-Known Member
NoviceKushVillage said:
I'm a bit confused for the lighting though— So blue is best for veg, typically between 400-500nm? However you're saying CTT is the more significant factor and that it needs to be around 4000k for veg? I'm probably wrong, but if CCT is how the hue of white appears to the human eye, then isn't 4000k appearing much more white then blue as in your picture above? Translating this then to my LED array, which has separate controls for red, white and blue—Should i get maximize the white light over the blue light then? Or is the blue still better as it's likely only 400-500nm rather then the entire spectrum which the white would cover? Or is this impossible to determine without a spectrometer? As i'd likely be able to mix the blue and white until i achieved 4000k output?
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That link I posted says that leds higher then 5k+ compared 5k+ fluoresents arent worth it. Different lighting I guess. But in terms of your lights, bro you have a blurple which is pretty outdated. So I cant really speak from experience. But yes blue light in that spectrum you mentioned helps with veg, helps keep them nice and squat.
NoviceKushVillage said:
So the perlite simply dries iout the substrate even faster?
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Yes perlite gives added aeration thus dries out faster.
NoviceKushVillage said:
Also how much would you water for the solo cups, till run-off?
Click to expand...
I add enough water every day to push out yesterdays feed. Feeding until runoff helps keep salt build up away.
No problem ask away. That is how we learn!
 
NoviceKushVillage

NoviceKushVillage

Member
Legend mate, really do appreciate it <3

Yeah I'm running mostly older multi-band LEDs as got them in cash at a great rate. For these solo cups I've got the viparspectra 700 par with an actual output of 326w alone on these babies at a height of approx 23" or exactly 57cm. There's 12 bands of LED - For blue there's 475nm, 460nm, 445nm, and 440nm; And for white there's 3000k and 7500k (See below)Vipar700Spectrum.png

Wondering the rough percentage I should run each range at, and if red should be incorporated for seedling/veg? Maybe someone who's messed around with these blurple older high efficiency 5W double epistar LEDs and 5Watt bridgelux / epileds LED Chips can chime in lol. Looking at the spectrum needs of veg, I would guess blue on 75 - 100% and the CCT of white on 25 - 50% to compliment with remainder of the spectrum?

Otherwise yeah they are nice and compact which is ideal. Otherwise just to note for flower I'll be aiming for 40w+ per sqf using a 400w HPS in combination with 2 x 1600w (630w actual) mars hydro arrays and 3 x 65w actual blurple ZNET (ZNET2s) for 6/7 babies in 5 gallons in a 9 x 5 (4.1 square meter tent) although tent will be bit large.

Thegermling said:
Yes perlite gives added aeration thus dries out faster.

I add enough water every day to push out yesterdays feed. Feeding until runoff helps keep salt build up away.
No problem ask away. That is how we learn!
Click to expand...
Should've been able to put two and two together with this first one haha but thank you again friend! And perfect I'm sure feeding till run-off daily will be the difference now. I've done this after transplanting in coco before so not sure why I haven't researched properly into needs of early development.But i think I'll transplant into solely or majority coco to retain a tad more water as it's going to get hot soon.

Do you find anything for veg other then a+b base nutes assists significantly with the coco coir? And just wondering roughly on genetics for your pictures above, are they indica or sativa dom? As just trying to compare stretch/node distances :)
 
Dynamo626

Dynamo626

Well-Known Member
Nm refers to nanometer. Leds put out a very specific lightwave depending on the materials its made of. K refers to kelvin and color temp. Kelvin is used to describe lights with numerous different nm lightwaves and how they apear. Its to early to google and link pics so you can do that yourself lol.
 
Dynamo626

Dynamo626

Well-Known Member
NoviceKushVillage said:
Legend mate, really do appreciate it <3

Yeah I'm running mostly older multi-band LEDs as got them in cash at a great rate. For these solo cups I've got the viparspectra 700 par with an actual output of 326w alone on these babies at a height of approx 23" or exactly 57cm. There's 12 bands of LED - For blue there's 475nm, 460nm, 445nm, and 440nm; And for white there's 3000k and 7500k (See below)View attachment 4220028

Wondering the rough percentage I should run each range at, and if red should be incorporated for seedling/veg? Maybe someone who's messed around with these blurple older high efficiency 5W double epistar LEDs and 5Watt bridgelux / epileds LED Chips can chime in lol. Looking at the spectrum needs of veg, I would guess blue on 75 - 100% and the CCT of white on 25 - 50% to compliment with remainder of the spectrum?

Otherwise yeah they are nice and compact which is ideal. Otherwise just to note for flower I'll be aiming for 40w+ per sqf using a 400w HPS in combination with 2 x 1600w (630w actual) mars hydro arrays and 3 x 65w actual blurple ZNET (ZNET2s) for 6/7 babies in 5 gallons in a 9 x 5 (4.1 square meter tent) although tent will be bit large.



Should've been able to put two and two together with this first one haha but thank you again friend! And perfect I'm sure feeding till run-off daily will be the difference now. I've done this after transplanting in coco before so not sure why I haven't researched properly into needs of early development.But i think I'll transplant into solely or majority coco to retain a tad more water as it's going to get hot soon.

Do you find anything for veg other then a+b base nutes assists significantly with the coco coir? And just wondering roughly on genetics for your pictures above, are they indica or sativa dom? As just trying to compare stretch/node distances :)
Click to expand...
i feed all the same at first. Havent seen a patern of indika or sativa needing more or less but some strains need more or less. For instance my lemonstar cross is a very light feeder the first couple weeks compared to most i have grown.
 
NoviceKushVillage

NoviceKushVillage

Member
Dynamo626 said:
Nm refers to nanometer. Leds put out a very specific lightwave depending on the materials its made of. K refers to kelvin and color temp. Kelvin is used to describe lights with numerous different nm lightwaves and how they apear. Its to early to google and link pics so you can do that yourself lol.
Click to expand...
Nah thank you mate more then enough the heavy readings for me to do! I've been doing exactly that though and reading into it, but that really crystallizes it in my mind nice and clear, cheers. Bu I've been feeding 25% with canna a+b + 1ml rhiz per litre.

Edited out a small last bit as realized you've got a journal running which answers all my questions
 
JohnDee

JohnDee

Well-Known Member
NKV,
Just some spectrum thoughts. It's getting very complicated these days deciding on spectra. To complicate things some people are using hps (red spectrum) during veg to lengthen internode spacing...the idea being that the plant can fit more bud on with longer bud spacing. And to further complicate things...strong blue lights (6000 to 8000) are thrown in as finishing lights last two weeks.

I have a Lumigrow 650...it's a well thought out light but is still a blurple with adjustments. White, blue and red knobs.

This is what Lumigrow says about adjusting spectra.

https://lumigrow.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/guide-spectral_tuning_lighting_cannabis-lumigrow-LED.pdf

Good luck,
JD

PS: The Germling is giving you good advice. no drying for coco. Water daily or more.
 
pulpoinspace

pulpoinspace

Well-Known Member
NoviceKushVillage said:
actual output of 326w alone on these babies at a height of approx 23" or exactly 57cm.
Click to expand...
i would move your light away a little bit. when your plants are stressed, less light and less nutes reduces the amount they have to work and they can focus on recovering from ailments. once your leaf issues are gone you can try moving the light a bit closer again.

i have my seedlings under 100w of light about 24" away.
 
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