Five myths about immigration

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dukeofbaja

New Member
Is that really all you have to say. You are usually so verbose and full of yourself.
This does make a teaparty rally look like a bridge social. The racism is apparent here in this video and yet you have nothing to say? Why? Because it is directed at White Persons.
WHite guilt is apparently your forte and when racism and violence is in the hands of anyone other than a white person it is excusable.
You do yourself a terrible disservice.

I can show you a few tea partier videos that would make this one look like an actual tea party (yeah, I watched the vid later Johnny. No surprises though...). I have yet to post one of them though, because for every 1 idiotic tea partier I could find, there would be 2 or 3 more reasonable ones right behind.

The dude you saw was one guy at a college rally. For a more COMPLETE view, you should probably look a little further than this one video distraction tactic. Just my thoughts.

This is a similar line of thought as blazin256 has....however, there is a big difference between an advocacy group and a hate group. I know that we are all grown up enough to realize the difference, and also to know that it is logical fallacy to let ONE speak for the WHOLE.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
Question: Why have not there been a sustained effort to overturn Federal immigration law which is more stringent than the Arizona law?

Answer: Because the Federal government has abdicated it's responsibility and the illegal aliens have been pacified up until now.

I guess I just scratch my head when the media ignores this stuff; and the actual violence taking place at the recent immigration marches.

Yet Proggies make no attempt to hide their contempt for the "racist and violent" Teabagger rallies where there have been no incidences of Teabagger violence.

Certainly you see the bias, Duke.
 

dukeofbaja

New Member
Question: Why have not there been a sustained effort to overturn Federal immigration law which is more stringent than the Arizona law?

Answer: Because the Federal government has abdicated it's responsibility and the illegal aliens have been pacified up until now.

I guess I just scratch my head when the media ignores this stuff; and the actual violence taking place at the recent immigration marches.

Yet Proggies make no attempt to hide their contempt for the "racist and violent" Teabagger rallies where there have been no incidences of Teabagger violence.

Certainly you see the bias, Duke.
I do see the bias, which is why I did not miss TV at all while I was in the El Paso outskirts. You can sympathize, as I read that you have not had one for 8 years or so. Bravo

We both seem to agree that it is a federal issue. I believe the border could be patrolled very efficiently using unmanned drone planes that can surveil illegal border crossers from 35,000 feet in the sky. Dispatch the Border Patrol, which has doubled to some 20,000 agents in recent years, to capture and send back anyone they can catch in the act.

As far as the majority who have just overstayed their time here, I favor some sort of amnesty, even one that includes a simple fine for entering illegaly or overstaying their card as long as they have not violated any other laws and so on. I guess that would make me a 'proggie', but I bet your view would not be too distant from mine.
 

Parker

Well-Known Member
Parker you seem to forget something that all your side bitch about. Those kids were mostly born here to be American citizens right? So now your crying about legal citizens getting free lunches and schooling, not illegal immigrants.
I'm not crying about it. Quit making more things up. The kids are not from American citizens. The kids have been made citizens, illegally. No one should profit from an illegal act.

What you don't seem to get is that I am saying we need to educate the low skilled workers.
What you don't get is I don't care about educating illegals. Get a clue

But no, you try to assume I don't understand economics and that all of you peoples fears of mexicans are justified. But instead of looking at what I am saying, you just dismiss and continue to sound like you all think, well who knows. And with all the crazy shit you all come up with, regardless of reality or logic, who cares right?
point out the crazy shit instead of bullshitting and making crap up. You are not the type of person who can take the thought process to the next level. You don't see the indirect things affected by illegals. That is your fault not mine.


Well then I am not surprised that you have not seen it, because you really seem stuck in your own world man. There has been plenty of times, off the top of my head I admitted I was wrong to Rickwhite a while ago and he was right with his views of gay rights.
of course you are not surprised because you haven't got a clue. You make things up like "stuck in your own man world" in order to make a point that doesn't exist. You are grasping at straws and have no facts to back up your baseless points.


The problem for you is that no matter how much information you see or actual data that shows where you are mistaken in your beliefs, you don't care. You continue to spout the same crazy views (not saying all your points are screwed up, but there has been a fair amount of tin foil worthy ideas you believe) regardless.
That is your uneducated perception. YOU are the one spouting off BS. I have laid out facts which you have not refuted. Weak minded people do things like that. Ignore and deny.

But see your 'woe is me' attitude towards the government is sad.

I am not emo enough to think that the government is out to get me, because it is not. You think your getting pissed on? God it must be horrible to have a place to live and a computer and internet. I mean that is practically third world type shit there.
LMAO what a load of BS. Once again I'll say that is your uneducated perception. YOU are the one spouting off BS. making things up in order to prove your weak point.
ok it's my turn - It must be horrible to for you to live in a rat infested apartment you share with your married cousins who are also your parents.

hey this is fun thanks for giving me the idea


And as far as being humble, I try to be, but with the stupidity that gets tossed around here anything said that has actual facts to back it up is looked at like it is somehow not being humble.
So others actions made you do that? An adult realizes he is responsible for his actions why don't you? answer you don't act like a responsible adult

And since your main viewpoints on everything seem to come from youtube I guess I can see why you would think that I am not being humble.
Sorry to disappoint you I don't get my views from youtube. How many times in this post are you going to lie to make a point?


But since you believe so much garbage I am not worried that there is a little more stuffed in there about me.
Enough said. You think that everyone hates America, woe is you.
Sorry to disappoint you. I never said I think everyone hates America. How many times in this post are you going to lie to make a point?

Your life is so bad, because everyone is out to get you.

Get over it man, nobody is out to get you, and believe it or not, there are far more intelligent people working on trying to fix as many issues as possible than there are working on pumping out conspiracy theories that are fixed with hate you all seem so fond of.
Sorry to disappoint you. I never said people are out to get me. How many times in this post are you going to lie to make a point?
 

kendothegreenwizard

Active Member
I do see the bias, which is why I did not miss TV at all while I was in the El Paso outskirts. You can sympathize, as I read that you have not had one for 8 years or so. Bravo

We both seem to agree that it is a federal issue. I believe the border could be patrolled very efficiently using unmanned drone planes that can surveil illegal border crossers from 35,000 feet in the sky. Dispatch the Border Patrol, which has doubled to some 20,000 agents in recent years, to capture and send back anyone they can catch in the act.

As far as the majority who have just overstayed their time here, I favor some sort of amnesty, even one that includes a simple fine for entering illegaly or overstaying their card as long as they have not violated any other laws and so on. I guess that would make me a 'proggie', but I bet your view would not be too distant from mine.
I gre with the border security measures you propose. Kudos.
I do not agree with Amnesty. There is no reason to give them a free pass for having broken the law. I am of the opinion that the illegals should be deported back to their countries of origin by whatever legal means at our disposal, including the old fashioned La migra raids of known businesses that employ them and susequent shutting down of those businesses
 

Parker

Well-Known Member
I do see the bias, which is why I did not miss TV at all while I was in the El Paso outskirts. You can sympathize, as I read that you have not had one for 8 years or so. Bravo

We both seem to agree that it is a federal issue. I believe the border could be patrolled very efficiently using unmanned drone planes that can surveil illegal border crossers from 35,000 feet in the sky. Dispatch the Border Patrol, which has doubled to some 20,000 agents in recent years, to capture and send back anyone they can catch in the act.

As far as the majority who have just overstayed their time here, I favor some sort of amnesty, even one that includes a simple fine for entering illegaly or overstaying their card as long as they have not violated any other laws and so on. I guess that would make me a 'proggie', but I bet your view would not be too distant from mine.
Think about what you are saying.
You are in favor of rewarding someone for a criminal act? What about the legals who did things the LEGAL way? Why do you want to crap on them? They went through all the legalities in order to become a citizen and you want to let criminals in with them?

No wonder people don't follow the rules of personal responsibility. They see others around them advancing without following the rules and the ones who should enforce the rules to often ignore them. How often are we going to shit on law abiding citizens who follow just laws? Any type of amnesty will only encourage others to break the law and suck our welfare system dry. We saw that with Regan.

We need big fines for companies that hire illegals. Confiscate the illegals possessions as ill gotten gains and ship them home.
 

dukeofbaja

New Member
Did you guys read the part that said 'including paying a fine'?

Parker, do you really support seizure laws? Think about the unfairness of seizure laws with respect to cannabis prohibition and how it relates to confiscating th possesions of illegal immigrants before you respond.

My personal viewpoint on amnesty is based upon the economic disaster it would be to locate, identify, arrest, and deport those who actually CONTRIBUTE to the economy, as many illegal immigrants do.

To assume every illegal immigrant steals welfare, food stamps, or whatever else they can is pure fallacy. Most illegals work VERY hard and are good folks. I say better to fine them (or even forgive them) for their illegal action but let them go on contributing to society.
 

blazin256

Well-Known Member
No, but yes? The KKK is a hate group that commits act of violence. The NAACP is an advocacy group that helps minorities overcome (deep breath) centures of slavery, racism, institutionalized discrimination, socioeconomic imbalances, the achievement gap, disenfranchisement and more (exhale). So are you saying that no, I am not way off that you think of them as being similar, but also yes, in this day and age I am? Did all the aforementioned factors dissapear recently?

Are you also implying that when I got together with my old friends from Arizona, did some coke, smoked some pot, and drank some beers, that was a gathering of racists because we were all white? And this is somehow aociated with Steele's recent debacle? I don't see the association, man.
im tryin to say one bad apple doesnt ruin the whole bunch. was all of germany guilty for hitlers crimes? should all pit bulls be put to sleep because a percentage of them attack more? should a group suffer bad publicity because they believe white cristians are being crusaded against? unlike most people i dont eat up this bs that major news media tells me. is it not racist for a colored person to get a job just for the color of his skin over somebody that was more qualified to do the job? am i too far in left field or what? if you and your stoner buds were gathering for the right to fly the confederate flag then yes they would call you racist, or most certainly think it. even tho it was the american flag flying on the ships transporting the slaves here. this is getting a little off topic anyway and more than likely my last post about this.
 

dukeofbaja

New Member
im tryin to say one bad apple doesnt ruin the whole bunch. was all of germany guilty for hitlers crimes? should all pit bulls be put to sleep because a percentage of them attack more? should a group suffer bad publicity because they believe white cristians are being crusaded against? unlike most people i dont eat up this bs that major news media tells me. is it not racist for a colored person to get a job just for the color of his skin over somebody that was more qualified to do the job? am i too far in left field or what? if you and your stoner buds were gathering for the right to fly the confederate flag then yes they would call you racist, or most certainly think it. even tho it was the american flag flying on the ships transporting the slaves here. this is getting a little off topic anyway and more than likely my last post about this.
Dude, it was a simple question. Do you put the KKK right next to the NAACP? First it was 'no and yes', now I get this convoluted, yet thoughtful, reply. Can I just get a response that directly answers the question?
 

Parker

Well-Known Member
Did you guys read the part that said 'including paying a fine'?

Parker, do you really support seizure laws? Think about the unfairness of seizure laws with respect to cannabis prohibition and how it relates to confiscating th possesions of illegal immigrants before you respond.

My personal viewpoint on amnesty is based upon the economic disaster it would be to locate, identify, arrest, and deport those who actually CONTRIBUTE to the economy, as many illegal immigrants do.

To assume every illegal immigrant steals welfare, food stamps, or whatever else they can is pure fallacy. Most illegals work VERY hard and are good folks. I say better to fine them (or even forgive them) for their illegal action but let them go on contributing to society.
I did think about confiscation with pot laws in mind. That is why I said just laws. Someone with a few plants is none of the governments business. No government should be able to tell me what I put into my body. The government doesn't own it's citizens. And to be up front I don't care if a big pot bust happens in a state that doesn't have MMJ. The big dealers are in it for the bucks. They take the risks they know the consequences.

I never said all, please don't misquote or infer I did. But I will say a majority receive benefits they should not be entitled too. One thing you are forgetting, as do a lot of people, is the person whose job the illegal stole. What about them? (Blame goes on the company that knowingly hires illegals too.) What about the lowered wages caused by the illegals or the benefits that are canceled to legal workers because the unscrupulous companies know they can get illegals to do the work without benefits?
To many of our schools are being overcrowded by kids who don't know the language very well, whose parents don't know it either and can't help their kids with the school work. The other kids suffer because their learning is being held back by the plethora of illegals who clog and slow the learning cycle down.

I do not think it is okay to excuse a criminal act because the person is hard working or a good person. I'm sure they are many hard working and good people who have had their jobs stolen also. A legal deserves a job over an illegal any day. The legals can contribute to society.

It is easy enough to rid the US of most illegals at a low cost. Levy big fines on companies that hire, no more benefits to illegals, no more birthright citizenship for kids of illegals. The jobs and welfare will dry up so they'll head home on their own.
 

Primz

Well-Known Member
Very much true Parker i stand with you on this but in the UK the immigration issue is off the scale, We are at war / or was at war with Iraq / Afghan and then we open our door to all illegals and to anyone else who wishes to step over our border not only that the gov seems to welcome them with open arms over here.

They dont speak a word of english, they get £55 per week, free roof over thier head food vouchers and after 6 month of standard living they then get given a concil house with 5 bedrooms and a garden lol not only that but check this out -

My Grandad served in WW2 with honours, he is 89 now (ithink lol) he has been pushed to the back of everying from british gov point of view, he gets a small pension, that is it. He has to controll his money for himself, sometimes he has to choose to ut extra money on heating or ele, Next door to him there is a 5 bedroom house (stunning house), drive, garage you name it. A family was bidding to purchase it but got turned down and the Gov gave it to a Arabic asylum seekuing family of 10. Yes a family of 10 living in a 5 bedroom house. Also they got a 6 seater family car for transport, non of them works (or at least declears it) and all is paid for them. How can that be fair.

I think in UK the british people are the minority now days, and it makes me sad to think that the Gov might just let this all happen so they can recieve a few more votes in a few years to come.

My little sister went for her first job interview the other day she was the only english girl thee out of 15 people, how can she compete with that when the toher will do it for a fraction of the wage and no benifits.................

The US and UK was so string at one stage and now its like we are on the back foot.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Hey Parker, I guess your reading skills on your post back at me may have been lacking, The change from the quotes being black to blue should have helped you to see that I was talking to Big P for most of my post.

Originally Posted by hanimmal
Parker you seem to forget something that all your side bitch about. Those kids were mostly born here to be American citizens right? So now your crying about legal citizens getting free lunches and schooling, not illegal immigrants.
I'm not crying about it. Quit making more things up. The kids are not from American citizens. The kids have been made citizens, illegally. No one should profit from an illegal act.
Being born here makes them a citizen, so now your saying we should ignore them and treat these kids as illegal immigrants?

Originally Posted by hanimmal
What you don't seem to get is that I am saying we need to educate the low skilled workers.
What you don't get is I don't care about educating illegals. Get a clue
Were you smoking when you wrote this? Because there is nothing in there I am talking about illegals if you bothered to not just dump in your own bias. I mean our American citizens that are trying to compete for extremely low skilled jobs, we need to use our system to better educate them and get them into more needed careers.
Originally Posted by hanimmal
But no, you try to assume I don't understand economics and that all of you peoples fears of mexicans are justified. But instead of looking at what I am saying, you just dismiss and continue to sound like you all think, well who knows. And with all the crazy shit you all come up with, regardless of reality or logic, who cares right?



point out the crazy shit instead of bullshitting and making crap up.
You are not the type of person who can take the thought process to the next level. You don't see the indirect things affected by illegals. That is your fault not mine.
I think you should realize that just because you say something doesn't make it true.

What you don't seem to get is that nothing in this world is one side is nothing but benefits and the other side is nothing but loss.

That is not the case. If you want to be so narrow minded to just look at the people affected negatively then yes you are correct (gasp) the illegal immigrants would be bad. But to do that means that you are not looking at the benefits of the entire society and looking at more than just the immediate change in the situation.


Time and time again I have said that we benefit greatly from the immigration, even the dude who said he lost his business because the cost of laying stone dropped to 1/3 the price, I tried to point out that if we had a better system in place him and his men would have been able to get 2/3rds their salaries while they were trying to improve their work skills.


All the work people would want to get done would be done at a far cheaper price long term, we would have some newly skilled workers in needed fields, and society would have been much better off.

See I am not saying there doesn't need to be changes, I am saying that those changes need to be smarter and better for America. And just saying boot 'em is not a long term way, and it will not work.


Below is your calling me stupid while thinking I am talking to you, even though all the quotes were quoted in my post, they were not things you typed, and in all blue.... Classic.

Originally Posted by hanimmal
Well then I am not surprised that you have not seen it, because you really seem stuck in your own world man. There has been plenty of times, off the top of my head I admitted I was wrong to Rickwhite a while ago and he was right with his views of gay rights.
of course you are not surprised because you haven't got a clue.You make things up like "stuck in your own man world" in order to make a point that doesn't exist. You are grasping at straws and have no facts to back up your baseless points.
Actually you are 100% wrong, that is a fact to answer Bigp, who after telling me that the government was pissing in my mouth, and liking it I opened my mouth. And then said "have you ever said a humble thing on this site? like " ok you guys are right, i was wrong"

So you see that this is a direct answer to what he asked.

Originally Posted by hanimmal
The problem for you is that no matter how much information you see or actual data that shows where you are mistaken in your beliefs, you don't care. You continue to spout the same crazy views (not saying all your points are screwed up, but there has been a fair amount of tin foil worthy ideas you believe) regardless.
That is your uneducated perception. YOU are the one spouting off BS. I have laid out facts which you have not refuted. Weak minded people do things like that. Ignore and deny.
Actually my viewpoint is not uneducated, sorry about bursting your bubble on this one. Again you really should know that just saying something doesn't make it a fact that has not been refuted.

I think I can quit pointing out that everything from here on out you are arguing something is from a completely different poster like I said it to you, because you for what ever reason thought you wrote in blue and statements that you never said. But I will still post yours.

LMAO what a load of BS. Once again I'll say that is your uneducated perception. YOU are the one spouting off BS. making things up in order to prove your weak point.
ok it's my turn - It must be horrible to for you to live in a rat infested apartment you share with your married cousins who are also your parents.

hey this is fun thanks for giving me the idea
Funny, you keep saying that I am uneducated, is this the way you get all your knowledge. Seriously I mean it makes sense if it is. You just say something, and poof it must be true, because you have just said it. But if not, maybe you should read what BigP actually said, something about fools and paying illegal immigrants more to keep them here or something along those lines. And I am uneducated.

Originally Posted by hanimmal
And as far as being humble, I try to be, but with the stupidity that gets tossed around here anything said that has actual facts to back it up is looked at like it is somehow not being humble.
So others actions made you do that? An adult realizes he is responsible for his actions why don't you? answer you don't act like a responsible adult
What do you even mean here? That by posting stuff that has tables, and data, actually doing math to show people what I am trying to point out, means that I am an elitist and not humble, somehow means that others actions made me do what?

I mean I know your 100% mistaken because you thought you wrote in blue and completely different sentences (maybe you thought you blacked out or something?), but can you at least try to make the rebuttal work when you try to insult me?

Sorry to disappoint you I don't get my views from youtube. How many times in this post are you going to lie to make a point?
Sorry to disappoint you. I never said I think everyone hates America. How many times in this post are you going to lie to make a point?
Since I wasn't talking to you, none?

Sorry to disappoint you. I never said people are out to get me. How many times in this post are you going to lie to make a point?
This one I love, because somehow I am lying by saying this:
Your life is so bad, because everyone is out to get you.

Get over it man, nobody is out to get you, and believe it or not, there are far more intelligent people working on trying to fix as many issues as possible than there are working on pumping out conspiracy theories that are fixed with hate you all seem so fond of.
I get that you somehow thought that I was talking to you throughout the entire post I made, but I was not.

The question I ask of you is have you actually tried to look at what your assuming I have not, the long run big picture? Because this is something that I think is very important for the country to get right, and some half assed bill that is not going to work is nothing even close to a fix to this problem. And as long as we continue to protect stupidity in this country it is only going to get worse.
 

abe23

Active Member
10 more myths...

1. Immigrants don't pay taxes.
Immigrants pay taxes, in the form of income, property, sales, and taxes at the federal and state level. As far as income tax payments go, sources vary in their accounts, but a range of studies find that immigrants pay between $90 and $140 billion a year in federal, state, and local taxes. Undocumented immigrants pay income taxes as well, as evidenced by the Social Security Administration's "suspense file" (taxes that cannot be matched to workers' names and social security numbers), which grew by $20 billion between 1990 and 1998.

(Source: http://www.immigrationforum.org/about/articles/tax_study.htm)

2. Immigrants come here to take welfare.
Immigrants come to work and reunite with family members. Immigrant labor force participation is consistently higher than native-born, and immigrant workers make up a larger share of the U.S. labor force (12.4%) than they do the U.S. population (11.5%). Moreover, the ratio between immigrant use of public benefits and the amount of taxes they pay is consistently favorable to the U.S. In one estimate, immigrants earn about $240 billion a year, pay about $90 billion a year in taxes, and use about $5 billion in public benefits. In another cut of the data, immigrant tax payments total $20 to $30 billion more than the amount of government services they use.

(Source: "Questioning Immigration Policy - Can We Afford to Open Our Arms?", Friends Committee on National Legislation Document #G-606-DOM, January 25, 1996. http:www.fas.org/pub/gen/fcnl/immigra.html)

3. Immigrants send all their money back to their home countries.
In addition to the consumer spending of immigrant households, immigrants and their businesses contribute $162 billion in tax revenue to U.S. federal, state, and local governments. While it is true that immigrants remit billions of dollars a year to their home countries, this is one of the most targeted and effective forms of direct foreign investment.

(Source: http://www.cato.org/research/articles/griswold-020218.html)

4. Immigrants take jobs and opportunity away from Americans.
The largest wave of immigration to the U.S. since the early 1900s coincided with our lowest national unemployment rate and fastest economic growth. Immigrant entrepreneurs create jobs for U.S. and foreign workers, and foreign-born students allow many U.S. graduate programs to keep their doors open. While there has been no comprehensive study done of immigrant-owned businesses, we have countless examples: in Silicon Valley, companies begun by Chinese and Indian immigrants generated more than $19.5 billion in sales and nearly 73,000 jobs in 2000.

(Source: Richard Vedder, Lowell Gallaway, and Stephen Moore, Immigration and Unemployment: New Evidence, Alexis de Tocqueville Institution, Arlington, VA (Mar. 1994), p. 13.)

5. Immigrants are a drain on the U.S. economy.
During the 1990s, half of all new workers were foreign-born, filling gaps left by native-born workers in both the high- and low-skill ends of the spectrum. Immigrants fill jobs in key sectors, start their own businesses, and contribute to a thriving economy. The net benefit of immigration to the U.S. is nearly $10 billion annually. As Alan Greenspan points out, 70% of immigrants arrive in prime working age. That means we haven't spent a penny on their education, yet they are transplanted into our workforce and will contribute $500 billion toward our social security system over the next 20 years.

(Source: Andrew Sum, Mykhaylo Trubskyy, Ishwar Khatiwada, et al., Immigrant Workers in the New England Labor Market: Implications for Workforce Development Policy, Center for Labor Market Studies, Northeastern University, Boston, Prepared for the New England Regional Office, the Employment and Training Administration, and the U.S. Department of Labor, Boston, Massachusetts, October 2002. http://www.nupr.neu.edu/11-02/immigration.PDF)

6. Immigrants don't want to learn English or become Americans.
Within ten years of arrival, more than 75% of immigrants speak English well; moreover, demand for English classes at the adult level far exceeds supply. Greater than 33% of immigrants are naturalized citizens; given increased immigration in the 1990s, this figure will rise as more legal permanent residents become eligible for naturalization in the coming years. The number of immigrants naturalizing spiked sharply after two events: enactment of immigration and welfare reform laws in 1996, and the terrorist attacks in 2001.

(Source: American Immigration Lawyers Association, Myths & Facts in the Immigration Debate", 8/14/03. http://www.aila.org/contentViewer.aspx?bc=17,142#section4)

(Source: Simon Romero and Janet Elder, "Hispanics in the US Report Optimism" New York Times, Aug. 6, 2003)

7. Today's immigrants are different than those of 100 years ago.
The percentage of the U.S. population that is foreign-born now stands at 11.5%; in the early 20th century it was approximately 15%. Similar to accusations about today's immigrants, those of 100 years ago initially often settled in mono-ethnic neighborhoods, spoke their native languages, and built up newspapers and businesses that catered to their fellow émigrés. They also experienced the same types of discrimination that today's immigrants face, and integrated within American culture at a similar rate. If we view history objectively, we remember that every new wave of immigrants has been met with suspicion and doubt and yet, ultimately, every past wave of immigrants has been vindicated and saluted.

(Source: Census Data: http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/censr-4.pdf)

8. Most immigrants cross the border illegally.
Around 75% of today's immigrants have legal permanent (immigrant) visas; of the 25% that are undocumented, 40% overstayed temporary (non-immigrant) visas.

(Source: Department of Homeland Security http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/statistics/index.htm)

9. Weak U.S. border enforcement has led to high undocumented immigration.
From 1986 to 1998, the Border Patrol's budget increased six-fold and the number of agents stationed on our southwest border doubled to 8,500. The Border Patrol also toughened its enforcement strategy, heavily fortifying typical urban entry points and pushing migrants into dangerous desert areas, in hopes of deterring crossings. Instead, the undocumented immigrant population doubled in that timeframe, to 8 million-despite the legalization of nearly 3 million immigrants after the enactment of the Immigration Reform and Control Act in 1986. Insufficient legal avenues for immigrants to enter the U.S., compared with the number of jobs in need of workers, has significantly contributed to this current conundrum.

(Source: Immigration and Naturalization website:http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/publications/enforce/border/ins_3.html)

10. The war on terrorism can be won through immigration restrictions.
No security expert since September 11th, 2001 has said that restrictive immigration measures would have prevented the terrorist attacks-instead, the key is effective use of good intelligence. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were here on legal visas. Since 9/11, the myriad of measures targeting immigrants in the name of national security have netted no terrorism prosecutions. In fact, several of these measures could have the opposite effect and actually make us less safe, as targeted communities of immigrants are afraid to come forward with information.

(Source: Associated Press/Dow Jones Newswires, "US Senate Subcommittee Hears Immigration Testimony", Oct. 17, 2001.)

(Source: Cato Institute: "Don't Blame Immigrants for Terrorism", Daniel Griswold, Assoc. Director of Cato Institute's Center for Trade Policy Studies http://www.cato.org/dailys/10-23-01.html)

http://www.communitychange.org/our-projects/firm/our-work/general-information-on-immigration/top-10-myths-about-immigration
 

ejo

Member
What? A list of facts with sources? Thats crazy talk, Lou Dobbs told me they were all freeloaders so it must be true!

/sarcasm
 

Parker

Well-Known Member
this is what I got from your posts that are directed at me.
That is not the case. If you want to be so narrow minded to just look at the people affected negatively then yes you are correct (gasp) the illegal immigrants would be bad. But to do that means that you are not looking at the benefits of the entire society and looking at more than just the immediate change in the situation.
the positives don't some close to outweighing the negatives. You are wanting to benefit one part of society, mainly the illegals, by taking from the Middle class. Why should someone and their childrens future suffer because you think you have an answer?


Time and time again I have said that we benefit greatly from the immigration, even the dude who said he lost his business because the cost of laying stone dropped to 1/3 the price, I tried to point out that if we had a better system in place him and his men would have been able to get 2/3rds their salaries while they were trying to improve their work skills.
A better system in place? do you mean programs to train the newly lowered salaried workers? If so that means these people have to not only work at their lower paying job they now have to train for another in order to give an illegal a job. Why waste time and money to train the lower salary people when you can already get a trained person to fill that job?
The illegals are taking the place of unskilled workers. Train the unskilled worker into another unskilled position then an illegal comes in and takes his job again. The unskilled person is not going to be "trained" to be in management for the most part. Apples and oranges type jobs. Why does a legal American have to go through all these motions just to appease illegals.
It's a pipe dream to think you can forcefully change a segment of society for their own good. It sounds good to say, let the illegals work the low skill jobs we'll train and find other and better jobs for the ones they are replacing. Sounds good but it doesn't happen that way in the real world.

All the work people would want to get done would be done at a far cheaper price long term, we would have some newly skilled workers in needed fields, and society would have been much better off.

See I am not saying there doesn't need to be changes, I am saying that those changes need to be smarter and better for America. And just saying boot 'em is not a long term way, and it will not work.
Your last sentence is incorrect. It is a long term way. It's short and long term. By booting illegals you are now rasing hourly wages from their artificially low rates. You are lowering unemployment. You are lessening the percentages of foreclosures since higher wages keeps people in houses. Strengthening the education system by having to spend less time educating illegals kids. Saving the money on the government handouts to illegals as well as some of the legals, since they now have their job and monthly wages back to normal.
You are now weakening the work force. You want to allow illegals, who are not as efficient compared to legals, to take over more of the unskilled jobs they are doing now. You want to train, somehow, the legal unskilled workers to work in another field or type of work. More cost to the employer. Or the govt (meaning the people) if you want a national or state training program. You are getting weaker workers all around now.

You cannot trample on legals rights because you think it will benefit America. We have watched for decades at what happens when the government gets involved with trying to fix the economy. They don't have a very good track record do they?
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
10 more myths...

1. Immigrants don't pay taxes.
Immigrants pay taxes, in the form of income, property, sales, and taxes at the federal and state level. As far as income tax payments go, sources vary in their accounts, but a range of studies find that immigrants pay between $90 and $140 billion a year in federal, state, and local taxes. Undocumented immigrants pay income taxes as well, as evidenced by the Social Security Administration's "suspense file" (taxes that cannot be matched to workers' names and social security numbers), which grew by $20 billion between 1990 and 1998.

(Source: http://www.immigrationforum.org/about/articles/tax_study.htm)

2. Immigrants come here to take welfare.
Immigrants come to work and reunite with family members. Immigrant labor force participation is consistently higher than native-born, and immigrant workers make up a larger share of the U.S. labor force (12.4%) than they do the U.S. population (11.5%). Moreover, the ratio between immigrant use of public benefits and the amount of taxes they pay is consistently favorable to the U.S. In one estimate, immigrants earn about $240 billion a year, pay about $90 billion a year in taxes, and use about $5 billion in public benefits. In another cut of the data, immigrant tax payments total $20 to $30 billion more than the amount of government services they use.

(Source: "Questioning Immigration Policy - Can We Afford to Open Our Arms?", Friends Committee on National Legislation Document #G-606-DOM, January 25, 1996. http:www.fas.org/pub/gen/fcnl/immigra.html)

3. Immigrants send all their money back to their home countries.
In addition to the consumer spending of immigrant households, immigrants and their businesses contribute $162 billion in tax revenue to U.S. federal, state, and local governments. While it is true that immigrants remit billions of dollars a year to their home countries, this is one of the most targeted and effective forms of direct foreign investment.

(Source: http://www.cato.org/research/articles/griswold-020218.html)

4. Immigrants take jobs and opportunity away from Americans.
The largest wave of immigration to the U.S. since the early 1900s coincided with our lowest national unemployment rate and fastest economic growth. Immigrant entrepreneurs create jobs for U.S. and foreign workers, and foreign-born students allow many U.S. graduate programs to keep their doors open. While there has been no comprehensive study done of immigrant-owned businesses, we have countless examples: in Silicon Valley, companies begun by Chinese and Indian immigrants generated more than $19.5 billion in sales and nearly 73,000 jobs in 2000.

(Source: Richard Vedder, Lowell Gallaway, and Stephen Moore, Immigration and Unemployment: New Evidence, Alexis de Tocqueville Institution, Arlington, VA (Mar. 1994), p. 13.)

5. Immigrants are a drain on the U.S. economy.
During the 1990s, half of all new workers were foreign-born, filling gaps left by native-born workers in both the high- and low-skill ends of the spectrum. Immigrants fill jobs in key sectors, start their own businesses, and contribute to a thriving economy. The net benefit of immigration to the U.S. is nearly $10 billion annually. As Alan Greenspan points out, 70% of immigrants arrive in prime working age. That means we haven't spent a penny on their education, yet they are transplanted into our workforce and will contribute $500 billion toward our social security system over the next 20 years.

(Source: Andrew Sum, Mykhaylo Trubskyy, Ishwar Khatiwada, et al., Immigrant Workers in the New England Labor Market: Implications for Workforce Development Policy, Center for Labor Market Studies, Northeastern University, Boston, Prepared for the New England Regional Office, the Employment and Training Administration, and the U.S. Department of Labor, Boston, Massachusetts, October 2002. http://www.nupr.neu.edu/11-02/immigration.PDF)

6. Immigrants don't want to learn English or become Americans.
Within ten years of arrival, more than 75% of immigrants speak English well; moreover, demand for English classes at the adult level far exceeds supply. Greater than 33% of immigrants are naturalized citizens; given increased immigration in the 1990s, this figure will rise as more legal permanent residents become eligible for naturalization in the coming years. The number of immigrants naturalizing spiked sharply after two events: enactment of immigration and welfare reform laws in 1996, and the terrorist attacks in 2001.

(Source: American Immigration Lawyers Association, Myths & Facts in the Immigration Debate", 8/14/03. http://www.aila.org/contentViewer.aspx?bc=17,142#section4)

(Source: Simon Romero and Janet Elder, "Hispanics in the US Report Optimism" New York Times, Aug. 6, 2003)

7. Today's immigrants are different than those of 100 years ago.
The percentage of the U.S. population that is foreign-born now stands at 11.5%; in the early 20th century it was approximately 15%. Similar to accusations about today's immigrants, those of 100 years ago initially often settled in mono-ethnic neighborhoods, spoke their native languages, and built up newspapers and businesses that catered to their fellow émigrés. They also experienced the same types of discrimination that today's immigrants face, and integrated within American culture at a similar rate. If we view history objectively, we remember that every new wave of immigrants has been met with suspicion and doubt and yet, ultimately, every past wave of immigrants has been vindicated and saluted.

(Source: Census Data: http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/censr-4.pdf)

8. Most immigrants cross the border illegally.
Around 75% of today's immigrants have legal permanent (immigrant) visas; of the 25% that are undocumented, 40% overstayed temporary (non-immigrant) visas.

(Source: Department of Homeland Security http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/statistics/index.htm)

9. Weak U.S. border enforcement has led to high undocumented immigration.
From 1986 to 1998, the Border Patrol's budget increased six-fold and the number of agents stationed on our southwest border doubled to 8,500. The Border Patrol also toughened its enforcement strategy, heavily fortifying typical urban entry points and pushing migrants into dangerous desert areas, in hopes of deterring crossings. Instead, the undocumented immigrant population doubled in that timeframe, to 8 million-despite the legalization of nearly 3 million immigrants after the enactment of the Immigration Reform and Control Act in 1986. Insufficient legal avenues for immigrants to enter the U.S., compared with the number of jobs in need of workers, has significantly contributed to this current conundrum.

(Source: Immigration and Naturalization website:http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/publications/enforce/border/ins_3.html)

10. The war on terrorism can be won through immigration restrictions.
No security expert since September 11th, 2001 has said that restrictive immigration measures would have prevented the terrorist attacks-instead, the key is effective use of good intelligence. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were here on legal visas. Since 9/11, the myriad of measures targeting immigrants in the name of national security have netted no terrorism prosecutions. In fact, several of these measures could have the opposite effect and actually make us less safe, as targeted communities of immigrants are afraid to come forward with information.

(Source: Associated Press/Dow Jones Newswires, "US Senate Subcommittee Hears Immigration Testimony", Oct. 17, 2001.)

(Source: Cato Institute: "Don't Blame Immigrants for Terrorism", Daniel Griswold, Assoc. Director of Cato Institute's Center for Trade Policy Studies http://www.cato.org/dailys/10-23-01.html)

http://www.communitychange.org/our-projects/firm/our-work/general-information-on-immigration/top-10-myths-about-immigration
Are these statistics about illegals from Mexico or Immigrants in general?
 

ejo

Member
"artificially low rates"?

Actually, in a capitalist system the free market always sets the price... increasing productivity and reducing costs is also a net gain for the economy. Not that I support their exploitation though.
 

abe23

Active Member
Are these statistics about illegals from Mexico or Immigrants in general?
Immigrants in general including undocumented. That's a good point though, I should have pointed that out...

My gripe is really not so much about people wanting to deport people who are here without authorization, it's more that we are not letting in enough people legally, which is why people come here illegally to fill the gap.
 
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