Five myths about immigration

Airwave · May 9, 2010

abe23 said:
Immigrants in general including undocumented. That's a good point though, I should have pointed that out...

My gripe is really not so much about people wanting to deport people who are here without authorization, it's more that we are not letting in enough people legally, which is why people come here illegally to fill the gap.

You get dumber with every post.

People are sitting at home in their own countries thinking " Hmmm, there aren't enough immigrants in the states, so I will sneak across the border to fill the gap, because that country needs me!".

Riiiiight.

hanimmal · May 9, 2010

the positives don't some close to outweighing the negatives. You are wanting to benefit one part of society, mainly the illegals, by taking from the Middle class. Why should someone and their childrens future suffer because you think you have an answer?

How are they taking from the middle class? If it is the middle class that is purchasing the service, then the middle class is the ones benefiting from the low prices. What you said makes no sense. What you don't seem to understand is that it is not a zero sum game.

Maybe if you think of it this way.

If I am a business owner and make 100k a year, and I don't have any employees. But I find I am wasting my valuable time doing one aspect of the business that I can hire someone else to do for a greatly reduced price. I now will have a surplus of time, and with that time I find something more valuable to do that a subordinate is not able to do.

The business is improved by hiring the worker right?

Well it is the same for the entire economy, by allowing that cheap labor to work, we are able to use that surplus gained to help develop our American workforce and use those more valuable skills to improve the economy.

A better system in place? do you mean programs to train the newly lowered salaried workers? If so that means these people have to not only work at their lower paying job they now have to train for another in order to give an illegal a job. Why waste time and money to train the lower salary people when you can already get a trained person to fill that job?
The illegals are taking the place of unskilled workers. Train the unskilled worker into another unskilled position then an illegal comes in and takes his job again. The unskilled person is not going to be "trained" to be in management for the most part. Apples and oranges type jobs. Why does a legal American have to go through all these motions just to appease illegals.
It's a pipe dream to think you can forcefully change a segment of society for their own good. It sounds good to say, let the illegals work the low skill jobs we'll train and find other and better jobs for the ones they are replacing. Sounds good but it doesn't happen that way in the real world.

Do you realize what you said makes no sense. If you somehow think that is what I mean you are way wrong, and if you think that I am retarded enough to think that then I guess I see why you think I have no idea about what I am saying. So instead re-read what I am typing, because your not understanding it at all, and seem to just be arguing back without actually trying to understand.

You do realize that there are several jobs that take a certification and specialized skills to perform right? Like HVAC training, there are a lot of careers that take a couple years of classes to be able to do. These blue collar skilled positions are plentiful, it is just something that we need to get people into. And like it or not we need as many people as possible to get in and get 4yr plus degrees to get our workforce as educated and innovative and efficient as possible.

This has nothing to 'appease' immigrants. It is just common sense. If you cannot understand the fact that we cannot allow our workforce to think that a high school diploma is going to cut, well maybe you can guess how this sentence ends.

Your last sentence is incorrect. It is a long term way. It's short and long term.

No because it will never happen. It is impossible to remove the illegal immigrants from America. No matter what new laws people want to enact, they will not work.

By booting illegals you are now rasing hourly wages from their artificially low rates. You are lowering unemployment.

Not the case. Economics 101, you increase prices and you will lessen the demand for those products. So when you push up the prices by booting the immigrants, you will drive of the costs of production, and that increase hits the consumer, and they will purchase less, and all those businesses that rely on the high demand (due to low prices) will go out of business due to lack of business, so you are just adjusting who is unemployed.

Sales jobs that require good english skills, and skills that are easily transferable (ie. 'sales is sales'), and businesses that rent in the neighborhoods, pay taxes, drivers, ect. To construction jobs that require very little language skills, and really operate at the benefit of the consumer.

You are lessening the percentages of foreclosures since higher wages keeps people in houses.

Not true due to above. You do not have anything to support that the companies that support the construction companies would not also suffer due to the lessened demand. And you have to also account for all the money the people that get the work lose out on due to inflated costs, that was money they could have spent somewhere else, so those companies and the people that work for them suffer.

Strengthening the education system by having to spend less time educating illegals kids.

That are mostly legal citizens, you will not be able to make an argument here, because you cannot boot out American children from school.

Saving the money on the government handouts to illegals as well as some of the legals, since they now have their job and monthly wages back to normal.

What handouts are these? Because I can read on Abes post that this is bs.

You are now weakening the work force. You want to allow illegals, who are not as efficient compared to legals, to take over more of the unskilled jobs they are doing now. You want to train, somehow, the legal unskilled workers to work in another field or type of work. More cost to the employer. Or the govt (meaning the people) if you want a national or state training program. You are getting weaker workers all around now.

After reading this hopefully you will be able to get why this would not weaken the labor force. You have your cheap inefficient workers in the jobs that require no real brainpower or skills, and move the people that are able to into higher wages and more positions that society has more benefits from. The system is in place already, there are tech schools all across this country, not to mention community colleges, and universities.

Falling back on the old thoughts that somehow our children will be able to have a good future without education is very counter productive, and a sure fire way to lead our country from the immense lead we have over everyone else, to being passed up after a few generations. This thinking is akin to trying to get garbage sciences taught to our kids.

You cannot trample on legals rights because you think it will benefit America. We have watched for decades at what happens when the government gets involved with trying to fix the economy. They don't have a very good track record do they?

It is sad that we continue to hire people to run our country that really besides maybe a couple low level and easy econ classes, have almost zero clue what to do to keep the economy running. But the reason is because we as a nation don;t understand the economy. That is also the problem with thinking that somehow legal citizens rights are being trampled because there are illegals. If nothing else what is trampling their rights is that they cannot legally compete for those jobs pricewise. It has nothing to do with the immigrants, and everything to do with the fact that people are stuck in low wage jobs because they did not take advantage of the system that is in place and are now unable to compete for better higher waged jobs and become a more productive worker.

Parker · May 10, 2010

hanimmal said:
How are they taking from the middle class? If it is the middle class that is purchasing the service, then the middle class is the ones benefiting from the low prices. What you said makes no sense. What you don't seem to understand is that it is not a zero sum game..

the middle class is paying for it in lost jobs and lower wages

hanimmal said:
Maybe if you think of it this way.

If I am a business owner and make 100k a year, and I don't have any employees. But I find I am wasting my valuable time doing one aspect of the business that I can hire someone else to do for a greatly reduced price. I now will have a surplus of time, and with that time I find something more valuable to do that a subordinate is not able to do.
The business is improved by hiring the worker right?
Well it is the same for the entire economy, by allowing that cheap labor to work, we are able to use that surplus gained to help develop our American workforce and use those more valuable skills to improve the economy.

like I said you don't know how it works. You make up things that sound good but are not practiced. You never ask at what cost. Hire an illegal you put a legal out of work. Easy enough for a rational person to grasp. We don't have illegals the unemployment rate and welfare money drops. Legals have the money to spend instead of receiving welfare also. That money goes back into the system. How hard is that to understand?

hanimmal said:
Do you realize what you said makes no sense. If you somehow think that is what I mean you are way wrong, and if you think that I am retarded enough to think that then I guess I see why you think I have no idea about what I am saying. So instead re-read what I am typing, because your not understanding it at all, and seem to just be arguing back without actually trying to understand.

instead of making up more bs prove what I wrote is incorrect

hanimmal said:
You do realize that there are several jobs that take a certification and specialized skills to perform right? Like HVAC training, there are a lot of careers that take a couple years of classes to be able to do. These blue collar skilled positions are plentiful, it is just something that we need to get people into. And like it or not we need as many people as possible to get in and get 4yr plus degrees to get our workforce as educated and innovative and efficient as possible.

then why aren't people doing that right now? Like I said you paint a nice picture but it's not reality. That is your inability not mine.

hanimmal said:
This has nothing to 'appease' immigrants. It is just common sense. If you cannot understand the fact that we cannot allow our workforce to think that a high school diploma is going to cut, well maybe you can guess how this sentence ends.

lmao why do people need more than a high school degree to do unskilled labor. You spout of more bs than any poster here besides med man.
"If everyone had a degree we'd be smarter. If everyone didn't steal the world would be a much better place." Keep painting the rosey picture, it isn't going to happen.

hanimmal said:
No because it will never happen. It is impossible to remove the illegal immigrants from America. No matter what new laws people want to enact, they will not work.

more bs from you. It's getting deep in here. If the welfare is stopped and companies do not hire them, the illegals will start going home. Not all but a sizeable chunk. THAT is human nature. If you can't clothe and feed yourself you move on. can't wait to see you spin this. lol

hanimmal said:
Not the case. Economics 101, you increase prices and you will lessen the demand for those products. So when you push up the prices by booting the immigrants, you will drive of the costs of production, and that increase hits the consumer, and they will purchase less, and all those businesses that rely on the high demand (due to low prices) will go out of business due to lack of business, so you are just adjusting who is unemployed.

Like what we saw with housing prices? LMAO the biggest crisis in I don't know how long and you can't even apply it. When you artifically inject things into the economy prices and demand go off kilter.
How many businesses are going to go out of work because they replace 4 illegals with 3 legals. If you think illegals are better workers than legals you are missing the boat. Legals who are spending their money here and not bleeding the welfare system dry AND are no longer receiving govt benefits themselves because they have good paying jobs. Like I said you are making things up.

hanimmal said:
Sales jobs that require good english skills, and skills that are easily transferable (ie. 'sales is sales'), and businesses that rent in the neighborhoods, pay taxes, drivers, ect. To construction jobs that require very little language skills, and really operate at the benefit of the consumer.

No they don't. You're making things up again. Reality check. Communication is worse with illegals. Your supervisor pool to choose from is smaller because you have to speak a foreign language to communicate with them. They do not know the proper way to do things in the US construction business and have to be taught. Inefficient is the word that comes to mind. NO ONE wants an inexperienced crew working on their house.

hanimmal said:
Not true due to above. You do not have anything to support that the companies that support the construction companies would not also suffer due to the lessened demand. And you have to also account for all the money the people that get the work lose out on due to inflated costs, that was money they could have spent somewhere else, so those companies and the people that work for them suffer.

LMAO People have had their pay cut or lost jobs from illegals taking jobs. Because of less income they loose their house and you want to argue with me that is not the case.

hanimmal said:
That are mostly legal citizens, you will not be able to make an argument here, because you cannot boot out American children from school.

Repeal the absurd law that gave them status. At least stop it right now. You continue to ignore the fact that someone benefited from an illegal act. That says something about your character.

hanimmal said:
What handouts are these? Because I can read on Abes post that this is bs.

You are uninformed which doesn't surprise me. Are denying that 2 schools with a 1/2 mile of me having over 90 percent free or assisted lunches is not true or you don't consider it a handout? These 2 schools are not isolated. Too many are like this. Can't wait to hear you spin on these

hanimmal said:
After reading this hopefully you will be able to get why this would not weaken the labor force. You have your cheap inefficient workers in the jobs that require no real brainpower or skills, and move the people that are able to into higher wages and more positions that society has more benefits from. The system is in place already, there are tech schools all across this country, not to mention community colleges, and universities.

lol cheap inefficient is what you get with illegals. I'd rather have efficient. But them again I'd rather live in a house that doesn't collapse and holds it's value and didn't get delayed in the building process because of inefficient illegals doing the job. "Move people into other jobs" Doesn't matter if they don't want to it's because you say so they should. You love to force your ideas on others don't you. You know what's best for them and are forcing them to get another job. Get a clue junior. People don't like to be forced from their job and forced into another because people like you want their lawn cut cheap.

You need a review on economics. Government intervention with the "free money" college loans has driven up the cost of education by leaps and bounds.

hanimmal said:
Falling back on the old thoughts that somehow our children will be able to have a good future without education is very counter productive, and a sure fire way to lead our country from the immense lead we have over everyone else, to being passed up after a few generations. This thinking is akin to trying to get garbage sciences taught to our kids..

Your foolishness has once again blinded you from rational thinking. Our legal kids are suffering in the education field because of the infux of illegals and their anchor babies. You think it's okay because you want your lawn cut $5 cheaper a week and feel the tax payers are responsible to educate illegals kids. Once again you do not look at the cost of doing things.

hanimmal said:
It is sad that we continue to hire people to run our country that really besides maybe a couple low level and easy econ classes, have almost zero clue what to do to keep the economy running. But the reason is because we as a nation don;t understand the economy. That is also the problem with thinking that somehow legal citizens rights are being trampled because there are illegals. If nothing else what is trampling their rights is that they cannot legally compete for those jobs pricewise. It has nothing to do with the immigrants, and everything to do with the fact that people are stuck in low wage jobs because they did not take advantage of the system that is in place and are now unable to compete for better higher waged jobs and become a more productive worker.

If someone wants to continue doing that job no one should force them into another job against their will. That is tyranny. That is how our federal government has been run lately.
You yourself don't understand the economy. You had absolutely no clue about prices, supply, and demand in the artificially inflated housing business so why should we listen to you? Government interference and artificially trying to help the economy has never worked in the long run. You need to take the thought process to the next level and ask "at what cost".

ink the world · May 10, 2010

RickWhite said:
I'm guessing you had computers when you went to school? I had to write out all my assignments by hand and use a library card catalog to find books in order to look stuff up. No word processors with spell check and no internet. And no understanding teachers. If our work was sloppy or misspelled, we were punished - no questions asked.

I did well in school too after returning as an adult and putting myself through college and I do well today. It is a real disability though and it is a lot worse for some than others. Strange though, you come off as a raging Liberal making excuses for people who make bad decisions in life and then when it comes to a genuine disability you call it a "crutch and excuse."

So I guess being Black is a disability in your mind but having a neurological brain condition that prevents one from being able to read isn't? Actually, that is the same attitude I heard in college. "So you're dyslexic; be thankful you aren't a minority."

LOL Rick, you love to put your foot in your mouth dont ya?

Im 40 years old, we didnt have computers. My teachers werent understanding, they didnt make excuses for me. It as a blessing for me, I had to live up to the same standards as others without a "crutch" or any excuses. It wasnt easy but it wasnt out of reach either, just took a little hard work.

I never called dyslexia a "crutch" I said YOU used it as a crutch.
Dont put words into my mouth, I never ONCE mentioned African Americans, and for the 1,00,000'th time you fool IM NOT A LIBERAL....if anything thats how you come across "poor little old me waa waa waa, the mean teachers dont understand and all the kids pick on me"

Cry me a fucking river man.

hanimmal · May 10, 2010

the middle class is paying for it in lost jobs and lower wages

The middle class are buying the services, if they save 2/3 the price they would have paid then the people laid off would only have to make up 1/3 their salary in a new field and society is break even. And that is without accounting for the other business that took their place. If you google "guns and butter" and try to actually learn the economic principles that this example is teaching you will find out that people benefit more that would be possible individually when they work together.

This is the same thing, you just refuse to see it.

Originally Posted by hanimmal
Maybe if you think of it this way.

If I am a business owner and make 100k a year, and I don't have any employees. But I find I am wasting my valuable time doing one aspect of the business that I can hire someone else to do for a greatly reduced price. I now will have a surplus of time, and with that time I find something more valuable to do that a subordinate is not able to do.
The business is improved by hiring the worker right?
Well it is the same for the entire economy, by allowing that cheap labor to work, we are able to use that surplus gained to help develop our American workforce and use those more valuable skills to improve the economy.

Click to expand...

like I said you don't know how it works. You make up things that sound good but are not practiced. You never ask at what cost. Hire an illegal you put a legal out of work. Easy enough for a rational person to grasp. We don't have illegals the unemployment rate and welfare money drops. Legals have the money to spend instead of receiving welfare also. That money goes back into the system. How hard is that to understand?

Re-read what I had posted and you will find that I already accounted for the person that was replaced by the illegal immigrant. When you take a job that someone with very little to no skills can do, away from the higher skilled worker you are becoming more efficient, because that higher skilled worker will now be able to do another job that requires more skills.

You are so hung up on welfare, but again if society is able to buy the same goods for 1/3 the price, you are able to pay the difference in 'welfare' and still break even. And if we are smart and use that time to build new skills we will come out far better off than if not.

instead of making up more bs prove what I wrote is incorrect

Because I said nothing close to what your response was saying.

You said

"The illegals are taking the place of unskilled workers. Train the unskilled worker into another unskilled position then an illegal comes in and takes his job again. The unskilled person is not going to be "trained" to be in management for the most part.

And this is way off. And I explained it later.

Originally Posted by hanimmal
You do realize that there are several jobs that take a certification and specialized skills to perform right? Like HVAC training, there are a lot of careers that take a couple years of classes to be able to do. These blue collar skilled positions are plentiful, it is just something that we need to get people into. And like it or not we need as many people as possible to get in and get 4yr plus degrees to get our workforce as educated and innovative and efficient as possible.

Click to expand...

then why aren't people doing that right now? Like I said you paint a nice picture but it's not reality. That is your inability not mine.

There are people doing this now, but because people like yourself sit there and just bitch about booting illegals, or cry about NAFTA, or free trade, while never understanding the huge economic benefits these things bring, we slap tariffs, unfair taxes, legislation to force people to hold documents if they are a particular race or take the chance to be detained as a illegal immigrant.

And for decades we figured, oh school is not a big deal, I am going to work in a factory, or construction, or some other manual labor, and those jobs are becoming scarce because their are far better ways to build wealth. But they require education.

This is reality, if people continue to think they don't need to become schooled and have much better developed skills, they will stay poor, and it will only get worse as we go in the future.

Originally Posted by hanimmal
This has nothing to 'appease' immigrants. It is just common sense. If you cannot understand the fact that we cannot allow our workforce to think that a high school diploma is going to cut, well maybe you can guess how this sentence ends.

Click to expand...

lmao why do people need more than a high school degree to do unskilled labor. You spout of more bs than any poster here besides med man.
"If everyone had a degree we'd be smarter. If everyone didn't steal the world would be a much better place." Keep painting the rosey picture, it isn't going to happen.

Jesus christ, seriously? You just cannot put two and two together. You don't need more than a high school degree to do unskilled labor, this is what I was saying. If someone is unskilled, they are a dime a dozen and cannot demand a high salary. You been taking jabs your entire post, but seriously you don't have a clue.

No education = replaceable, Don't you wonder why people with 4 year degrees are at full employment throughout this entire recession? It is because you are harder to replace, which means you get paid better.

more bs from you. It's getting deep in here. If the welfare is stopped and companies do not hire them, the illegals will start going home. Not all but a sizeable chunk. THAT is human nature. If you can't clothe and feed yourself you move on. can't wait to see you spin this. lol

What welfare?

Like what we saw with housing prices? LMAO the biggest crisis in I don't know how long and you can't even apply it. When you artifically inject things into the economy prices and demand go off kilter.
How many businesses are going to go out of work because they replace 4 illegals with 3 legals. If you think illegals are better workers than legals you are missing the boat. Legals who are spending their money here and not bleeding the welfare system dry AND are no longer receiving govt benefits themselves because they have good paying jobs. Like I said you are making things up.

Housing boomed because people were viewing them as a asset, they were increasing in prices and people bought into it. Everyone that bought a house in early to mid 2000's was expecting it to be worth way more a few years later. Really a different market, more like stocks.

And you accuse me of making shit up, but where are you thinking a illegal immigrant is 3/4 the price of an american citizen? According to the guy that had his own business go under because he could not compete saw prices drop 2/3.

So I disagree, if I can have 6 illegal immigrants vs 2 legal citizens, And I still have the same skills as the other owner to lay stone, then I will destroy you.

And I call bullshit on welfare and them not spending money here. This is a talking point that has been debunkned well before this post. If you just refuse to step back and see that maybe you were wrong, well there is nothing I can do for you. Because like it or not your mind is made up and closed.

Originally Posted by hanimmal
Sales jobs that require good english skills, and skills that are easily transferable (ie. 'sales is sales'), and businesses that rent in the neighborhoods, pay taxes, drivers, ect. To construction jobs that require very little language skills, and really operate at the benefit of the consumer.

Click to expand...

No they don't. You're making things up again. Reality check. Communication is worse with illegals. Your supervisor pool to choose from is smaller because you have to speak a foreign language to communicate with them. They do not know the proper way to do things in the US construction business and have to be taught. Inefficient is the word that comes to mind. NO ONE wants an inexperienced crew working on their house.

Reality check! Whoa tough guy. Do you not get that my entire point with this was to say that illegals are not able to communicate like americans? So thanks for restating what I had already said again, which is why ameicans are more valuable. Asking someone to hump stone from the truck to next to me so that I can lay it does not take a lot of language skills. And further more if you are hiring illegals chances are you speak the language, or have someone you trust that does as your supervisor.

If you cannot communicate with your crew, you would not hire them. This is not rocket science.

Originally Posted by hanimmal
Not true due to above. You do not have anything to support that the companies that support the construction companies would not also suffer due to the lessened demand. And you have to also account for all the money the people that get the work lose out on due to inflated costs, that was money they could have spent somewhere else, so those companies and the people that work for them suffer.

Click to expand...

LMAO People have had their pay cut or lost jobs from illegals taking jobs. Because of less income they loose their house and you want to argue with me that is not the case.

So do you have a problem reading? Do you not agree that if prices sky rocket to get the same work done, there would be a drop in material purchases? And would that not make those workers suffer due to job losses? You are just arguing to argue. Really I am wasting my time with you, because you just don't want to see any other view than your own. And regardless of the information put out, you will either ignore it or say 'nuh-uh'.

Originally Posted by hanimmal
That are mostly legal citizens, you will not be able to make an argument here, because you cannot boot out American children from school.

Click to expand...

Repeal the absurd law that gave them status. At least stop it right now. You continue to ignore the fact that someone benefited from an illegal act. That says something about your character.

Yeah my character says we cannot just kick people born in this great country of our out and say they are not american citizens anymore, even though they have been all their life. You have some screws loose in your head if somehow you think your in the right with booting american children out of the country.

You are uninformed which doesn't surprise me. Are denying that 2 schools with a 1/2 mile of me having over 90 percent free or assisted lunches is not true or you don't consider it a handout? These 2 schools are not isolated. Too many are like this. Can't wait to hear you spin on these

They are American citizens, even though in your narrow minded view you refuse to get this, those are American citizens, and not illegal immigrants.

lol cheap inefficient is what you get with illegals. I'd rather have efficient. But them again I'd rather live in a house that doesn't collapse and holds it's value and didn't get delayed in the building process because of inefficient illegals doing the job. "Move people into other jobs" Doesn't matter if they don't want to it's because you say so they should. You love to force your ideas on others don't you. You know what's best for them and are forcing them to get another job. Get a clue junior. People don't like to be forced from their job and forced into another because people like you want their lawn cut cheap.

You need a review on economics. Government intervention with the "free money" college loans has driven up the cost of education by leaps and bounds.

If someone is moving dirt, it is already inefficient. We need our best labor doing the best possible jobs.

You seem to think that somehow they are being forced to do this job, not reality. I am saying that those jobs will not be there and cannot be counted on in the future to bring home a great income like we had in the past. You are essentially taking the side of unions, and they are dinosaurs here in the states that are really just a huge tax that long term tanks businesses. Paying people more than what the job is worth is stupid plain and simple.

But that is also the last ditch effort of people like yourself, instead of stepping up and saying, your right we do need all of our children to get degrees and become as a whole a very educated workforce so they can develop new technologies and products so that we can have high end jobs here in the states, you say that I am forcing shit on people. Which is bullshit. I could care less what people chose to do with their lives, but I am not going to pretend that because you have no education or skills that would require your boss to pay you a premium for your work that somehow you should get it on principle.

Your foolishness has once again blinded you from rational thinking. Our legal kids are suffering in the education field because of the infux of illegals and their anchor babies. You think it's okay because you want your lawn cut $5 cheaper a week and feel the tax payers are responsible to educate illegals kids. Once again you do not look at the cost of doing things.

Foolishness. Well then with your immense logic, tell me, did you read the post I made before you start bitching like a ignorant racist about anchor babies?

Here it is again:

Falling back on the old thoughts that somehow our children will be able to have a good future without education is very counter productive, and a sure fire way to lead our country from the immense lead we have over everyone else, to being passed up after a few generations. This thinking is akin to trying to get garbage sciences taught to our kids..

How is this foolish? Are you seriously going to sit here and try to convince us that allowing our children to think that there will be low skilled jobs that they can make a good living doing in the future is a good thing?

If someone wants to continue doing that job no one should force them into another job against their will.

Right? And nobody does, so what? Nobody is saying that they should be forced against their will to do a job they don't want to.

That is tyranny. That is how our federal government has been run lately.

No that is what ignorant people believe.

You yourself don't understand the economy. You had absolutely no clue about prices, supply, and demand in the artificially inflated housing business so why should we listen to you? Government interference and artificially trying to help the economy has never worked in the long run. You need to take the thought process to the next level and ask "at what cost".

Again, you just saying shit doesn't make it true. I actually know a very good amount about economics. I could care less if you listen to me or not, and really at this point I don't think that you are able to listen, because you have shown that you cannot understand what you read, and just jump to what ever it is that your going to say without realizing how 1/2 of it is arguing a completely different point, and the other 1/2 is ignorant.

If you were not this way, you would realize that YOU ARE THE ONE LOOKING FOR GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE. You are the one that wants people kicked out of the country to artificially inflate costs of wages. You are the one that is not thinking about the costs of kicking kids out of schools, or removing people from communities that have lived and participated in for years.

I am trying to explain that this doesn't need to take place, because as an entire economy we benefit from this. You are the one that refuses to understand this. Because you want to bitch about someone losing a $8 an hour job at a car wash, while I am saying we should help those people to be able to live out the next few decades working in a career that is better for them and for us.

Parker · May 11, 2010

hanimmal said:
The middle class are buying the services, if they save 2/3 the price they would have paid then the people laid off would only have to make up 1/3 their salary in a new field and society is break even. And that is without accounting for the other business that took their place. If you google "guns and butter" and try to actually learn the economic principles that this example is teaching you will find out that people benefit more that would be possible individually when they work together.

This is the same thing, you just refuse to see it.

you keep making things up. "If only we had jobs for these unskilled people we can allow the illegals to do those low skill jobs and move others into different jobs." You cannot create jobs out of thin air. That is what I refuse to believe. It doesn't work that way.

hanimmal said:
Re-read what I had posted and you will find that I already accounted for the person that was replaced by the illegal immigrant. When you take a job that someone with very little to no skills can do, away from the higher skilled worker you are becoming more efficient, because that higher skilled worker will now be able to do another job that requires more skills.

I don't need to reread your foolishness. That is not how the world works. You cannot create jobs out of thin air.

hanimmal said:
You are so hung up on welfare, but again if society is able to buy the same goods for 1/3 the price, you are able to pay the difference in 'welfare' and still break even. And if we are smart and use that time to build new skills we will come out far better off than if not.

Welfare is a reality and not some made up pipe dream you are spouting nonsense about. I live in the real world. You cannot force people to take jobs in other fields that don't exist yet and may never exist, by force. That's about control.

hanimmal said:
There are people doing this now, but because people like yourself sit there and just bitch about booting illegals, or cry about NAFTA, or free trade, while never understanding the huge economic benefits these things bring, we slap tariffs, unfair taxes, legislation to force people to hold documents if they are a particular race or take the chance to be detained as a illegal immigrant.

There are not economic benefits you hack. How can there be benefits when the lower income people invade us? Lower income people drain money away from us not the other way around. Lower income people stay in the lower income range.

hanimmal said:
And for decades we figured, oh school is not a big deal, I am going to work in a factory, or construction, or some other manual labor, and those jobs are becoming scarce because their are far better ways to build wealth. But they require education.

Another thing you have made up. Getting a higher education has been popular for quite some time. Only recently has the cost of higher education come under scrutiny. The question being asked now is do the costs of a 4 year college outweigh the benefits.

hanimmal said:
This is reality, if people continue to think they don't need to become schooled and have much better developed skills, they will stay poor, and it will only get worse as we go in the future.

In case you havn't noticed you can make a good living in fields that don't require an education. It's harder now since illegals have LOWERED the pay scale in fields they work. So instead we bring in more poor illegals to take legals jobs and create jobs out of thin air for the legals who have lost their jobs. Like I said, it's a pipe dream. It doesn't work that way.

hanimmal said:
Jesus christ, seriously? You just cannot put two and two together. You don't need more than a high school degree to do unskilled labor, this is what I was saying. If someone is unskilled, they are a dime a dozen and cannot demand a high salary. You been taking jabs your entire post, but seriously you don't have a clue.

Educate yourself on how the economic system works. You have to have jobs available before people will migrate to that field. I said migrate, not artificially made to or forced.

hanimmal said:
No education = replaceable, Don't you wonder why people with 4 year degrees are at full employment throughout this entire recession? It is because you are harder to replace, which means you get paid better.

It means they wanted to better themselves. No one forced them out of a job they wanted to do. You don't know how things work very well.

hanimmal said:
Housing boomed because people were viewing them as a asset, they were increasing in prices and people bought into it. Everyone that bought a house in early to mid 2000's was expecting it to be worth way more a few years later. Really a different market, more like stocks.

lol poor thing. When you lower interest rates and make money available (free money) to people who could not qualify because of their inability to pay, bad things happen. It was a pipe dream to think otherwise, like the one you are spewing.
How does someone go from not being able to afford a house to afford a house when their income doesn't change and prices don't drop? If housing is available (it was) and the cost to build is still the same or lower (it was) how do prices increase? Because of government manipulation. The same thing you are trying to do. House prices are now dropping to the pre artificially manipulated numbers before the boom.

hanimmal said:
And you accuse me of making shit up, but where are you thinking a illegal immigrant is 3/4 the price of an american citizen? According to the guy that had his own business go under because he could not compete saw prices drop 2/3.

So I disagree, if I can have 6 illegal immigrants vs 2 legal citizens, And I still have the same skills as the other owner to lay stone, then I will destroy you.

The numbers I used are just an example. Illegals are not as efficient as legal workers from the previous examples I mentioned that you ignored. All things being equal the communication barrier and not being familiar with the way things are legally and safely done here is a big enough difference.

hanimmal said:
And I call bullshit on welfare and them not spending money here. This is a talking point that has been debunkned well before this post. If you just refuse to step back and see that maybe you were wrong, well there is nothing I can do for you. Because like it or not your mind is made up and closed.

lmao because you say so, I guess. People who make money and have families spend it on them. If their families are not here that means they send some of it outside of the US. So poor people do not use welfare? Is that what you are saying since most illegals are poor. Not to hard to understand unless you are uneducated or have an agenda.

hanimmal said:
Reality check! Whoa tough guy. Do you not get that my entire point with this was to say that illegals are not able to communicate like americans? So thanks for restating what I had already said again, which is why ameicans are more valuable. Asking someone to hump stone from the truck to next to me so that I can lay it does not take a lot of language skills. And further more if you are hiring illegals chances are you speak the language, or have someone you trust that does as your supervisor.

If you cannot communicate with your crew, you would not hire them. This is not rocket science.

too bad you don't get it. Lack of or improper communication slows things down and leads to costly mistakes. It's not about one instance of moving rocks. So if someone is doing something wrong I have to speak THEIR language in order to correct them. Like I said you don't know how things work in the real world. You don't know human nature.

hanimmal said:
So do you have a problem reading?

only when someone like yourself types in idiot instead of english.

hanimmal said:
Do you not agree that if prices sky rocket to get the same work done, there would be a drop in material purchases? And would that not make those workers suffer due to job losses? You are just arguing to argue. Really I am wasting my time with you, because you just don't want to see any other view than your own. And regardless of the information put out, you will either ignore it or say 'nuh-uh'.

What jobs are illegals doing now that relate to prices skyrocketed but are now down because low paying are working the jobs? To be sure when you employee higher paid workers you should hopefully get better work from them and receive more profits in the long run. If not people don't buy that product.

So, according to you, the best thing to do for companies is to cut wages under the guise of making things affordable. Nothing about efficiency? Generally you cannot take away money and think quality will not suffer.

hanimmal said:
Yeah my character says we cannot just kick people born in this great country of our out and say they are not american citizens anymore, even though they have been all their life. You have some screws loose in your head if somehow you think your in the right with booting american children out of the country.

LMAO They would leave with their parents. Doesn't surprise me you couldn't figure that out. They are not American Children. It was a disgrace how our politicians handed something to them they didn't deserve. That's your problem once again. You want to manipulate people for what YOU perceive will be a good for them. Manipulation by force doesn't work.

hanimmal said:
They are American citizens, even though in your narrow minded view you refuse to get this, those are American citizens, and not illegal immigrants.

You talk about character but have no problem rewarding someone for an illegal act. Their parents are here illegals and their offspring should not profit from an illegal act. And on top of that I'm having to pay for their welfare benfits. What does that say about you?

hanimmal said:
If someone is moving dirt, it is already inefficient. We need our best labor doing the best possible jobs.

You seem to think that somehow they are being forced to do this job, not reality. I am saying that those jobs will not be there and cannot be counted on in the future to bring home a great income like we had in the past. You are essentially taking the side of unions, and they are dinosaurs here in the states that are really just a huge tax that long term tanks businesses. Paying people more than what the job is worth is stupid plain and simple.

nice try little fella. You have no idea what side I would take with the union as well as which issues i would agree with on the side I do take. You love making things up in order to make the other person look bad because you have a weak argument. Doesn't surprise me.

"Paying people more than what the job is worth is stupid plain and simple."

unless you are talking about government jobs, which do not have competition, who are you to decide what a job is worth? This is exactly what I'm talking about. YOU are all about control. YOU cannot decide what is too high a wage. If expenses are too high that business will fail. Someone will come along and do it better and cheaper IF there is a market for it. The market decides this, that not some hack on a pot forum.

hanimmal said:
But that is also the last ditch effort of people like yourself, instead of stepping up and saying, your right we do need all of our children to get degrees and become as a whole a very educated workforce so they can develop new technologies and products so that we can have high end jobs here in the states, you say that I am forcing shit on people. Which is bullshit. I could care less what people chose to do with their lives, but I am not going to pretend that because you have no education or skills that would require your boss to pay you a premium for your work that somehow you should get it on principle.

Unlike you I do not think manipulation of the market works well. History has born this out. One of our problems is we are no longer a manufacturing country. Corporate taxes have chased away many companies. I wonder if you are dumb enough to counter with "other places have just as high corporate taxes".

hanimmal said:
Foolishness. Well then with your immense logic, tell me, did you read the post I made before you start bitching like a ignorant racist about anchor babies?

Here it is again: How is this foolish? Are you seriously going to sit here and try to convince us that allowing our children to think that there will be low skilled jobs that they can make a good living doing in the future is a good thing?

lmao the falsities you spew in order to make your point. No one is saying we want our children to do low paying jobs. There are saying boot the illegals out so jobs are more plentiful and higher paying so they can earn a living. I think legal Americans should have the opportunity to make a living. When illegals drive down wages in the fields they work legals find it harder to make a living. Your answer is to fabricate new jobs. My answer is to follow the rules, don't manipulate or allow policies that manipulate the economy.

hanimmal said:
Right? And nobody does, so what? Nobody is saying that they should be forced against their will to do a job they don't want to.
No that is what ignorant people believe.

Ignorant people think you can create jobs out of thin air.
What you continue to miss is this - you are forcing people to work other jobs because you want illegals to work the lower paying jobs.

hanimmal said:
Again, you just saying shit doesn't make it true. I actually know a very good amount about economics. I could care less if you listen to me or not, and really at this point I don't think that you are able to listen, because you have shown that you cannot understand what you read, and just jump to what ever it is that your going to say without realizing how 1/2 of it is arguing a completely different point, and the other 1/2 is ignorant.

again you are making things up. You cannot know much about economics when you don't understand how artificially controlled markets do not follow the theories of supply and demand. You refuse to answer a simply question. Since the supply of houses did not outstrip demand and since the cost to build a house came down why did housing proces skyrocket?

hanimmal said:
If you were not this way, you would realize that YOU ARE THE ONE LOOKING FOR GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE. You are the one that wants people kicked out of the country to artificially inflate costs of wages. You are the one that is not thinking about the costs of kicking kids out of schools, or removing people from communities that have lived and participated in for years.

You really like to make things up. I don't want illegals to profit. ESPECIALLY since it's at the expense of legals. I don't want government intervention in areas they have no authority. They don't have a very good track record.
Securing our borders is actually one of the jobs the federal government is suppossed to do but doesn't.
lmao According to you if a criminal gets away with a crime for a few years they shouldn't be punished.

hanimmal said:
I am trying to explain that this doesn't need to take place, because as an entire economy we benefit from this. You are the one that refuses to understand this. Because you want to bitch about someone losing a $8 an hour job at a car wash, while I am saying we should help those people to be able to live out the next few decades working in a career that is better for them and for us.

you are all about force. forcing me to support the "illegals" by paying their welfare benefits. force others in these fields to get a different job so we can 'help' them and in turn that will help illegals because YOU say they will be better off. All we are getting are lower income people who as we know, in the long run will stay lower income and because of this they will drain legal Americans of their money and time.
The dollar is going down, our latest generation of kids are the first to NOT have a brighter future than their parents. We cannot continue to subsidize illegals. When you subsidize something you get more of it. The illegals come here for the jobs AS WELL AS the welfare benefits that come with. With the economy in the shitter we need keep jobs for legals.

There may come a time when the federal government stays out of the "economy fixing business" and we are better off for it. Only then should we look into allowing more LEGAL workers in. I have no problem with an "open border" as long as the econmy is going well and legals are employed.

I am waiting on an answer for this very simple question "Since the supply of houses did not outstrip demand and since the cost to build a house came down why did housing proces skyrocket?"

ejo · May 11, 2010

"The market decides this, that not some hack on a pot forum. "

Are you talking about yourself? Hasnt the market decided this? Isn't that why illegal immigrants are the rage right now? Increasing productivity, reducing costs, stimulating growth?

And, you're right, jobs don't get created "out of thin air"... they get created from increased productivity, production, demand, supply...ect. which is exactly what illegal immigrants are doing.

Big P · May 11, 2010

illigal immigrants are the loophole of minimum wage

ejo · May 11, 2010

"The illegals come here for the jobs AS WELL AS the welfare benefits that come with."

Yet they still dont qualify for the grand majority of the benefits by the grand majority of illegals... and you (after almost 30 pages) have yet to provide a single source to make this claim. And I will continue to call you out on it until you do.

Big P · May 11, 2010

i think instead of calling them illigal we should call them "Criminal Immigrants" maybe then it will get it through you thick heads that the people of america have immigration guidlines that must be followed that have been voted on and written into law by elecgted reps of the people

the day they repeal those guidlines is the day you will be right. until then you are wrong wrong wrongity wrong wrong :-P

Parker · May 11, 2010

ejo said:
"The illegals come here for the jobs AS WELL AS the welfare benefits that come with."

Yet they still dont qualify for the grand majority of the benefits by the grand majority of illegals... and you (after almost 30 pages) have yet to provide a single source to make this claim. And I will continue to call you out on it until you do.

lmao There have been examples on this thread. Your inability to read and retain is your problem.
One example - You do know the cost of illegals births are much greater than legals births don't you? Relating to their low income and poor pre natal health care habits. Bad enough they don't pay their fair share but they cost more. This is common knowledge stemming from figures a previous poster commented on. And you say there is no proof? You're a liar or have a blinded agenda. I will continue to call you on it until you admit it.

Illegals come here for the education system. The give birth here and their kid gets to go to school AND many receive free or assisted lunches. (2 schools close to me have over 90 percent free or assisted lunches) If we don't give citizenship to the kids, which illegals know they will receive, they wouldn't be here overloading our school system. NO MORE ANCHOR BABIES.
Let me see if i get this right. An illegal gives birth on Jan 4th and sneaks into this country illegally on Jan 8th. Their child is not a citizen. The illegal sneaks into this country illegally a few days before birth and this somehow makes it okay?

Are you denying this "They wouldn't come here if they didn't receive the handouts?" No "free school and medical care" most go home.

As long as you can save $5 on your lawn being mowed and the illegal neighbor is a nice person I guess that's all that matters. No comment from the disgusting pro illegal side on what happens to the the person who looses their job because an unscrupulous company hires an illegal. Or their kid suffers education wise because illegals are burdening our school system. Or whose pay is cut and house is now lost because an illegal has artificially lowered the pay scale.
As long as there is a continued lack of respect for a true market system our country will continue to suffer. But you're okay with that because you cannot or refuse to take the process thought to the next level and don't understand at what cost. Out of sight out mind.

dukeofbaja · May 11, 2010

I think it's funny how we basically put millions of Mexican farmers out of work and get upset when they come here to replace the jobs we ruined for them....the height of irony

hanimmal · May 11, 2010

you keep making things up. "If only we had jobs for these unskilled people we can allow the illegals to do those low skill jobs and move others into different jobs." You cannot create jobs out of thin air. That is what I refuse to believe. It doesn't work that way.

Nobody is saying to pull these jobs out of thin air, they are already here. You can refuse to believe the information out there all you want, and you seem to do that, which is a large part of the problem I have with your position on this issue. It seems like no matter what the actual case may be, your mind is set and you will not change it, for you they HAVE to leave. And not is there a better way.

http://www.kiplinger.com/businessresource/forecast/archive/even-now-firms-struggle-to-find-skilled-staff.html

"Believe it or not, many businesses are finding it tough to hire the kind of workers they need. Even in the throes of a recession, a range of companies havent been able to fill some critical job openings.
There are plenty of applicants, but many lack the right skills. Its not a labor shortage per se, but a dearth of talent. In fact, over 60% of businesses say its difficult to find qualified workers. Despite the loss of about 8 million jobs since the recession began, manufacturers as a whole have continued to seek machinists and machine operators, welders, laser die cutters and other highly skilled laborers. And engineers -- chemical, nuclear, environmental and others with special training -- remain in short supply, as do scientists. Demand for nurses and nursing teachers, physician assistants, physical therapists, pharmacists and other health care workers outstrips supply. Ditto, skilled information technology workers, from systems analysts to programmers."

I don't need to reread your foolishness. That is not how the world works. You cannot create jobs out of thin air.

Are you starting to get it? You are making up this 'out of thin air' that is not anything that I have said.

Welfare is a reality and not some made up pipe dream you are spouting nonsense about. I live in the real world. You cannot force people to take jobs in other fields that don't exist yet and may never exist, by force. That's about control.

Take off the tin foil hat, there is nobody trying to force anyone.

How can you not get it, the systems are in place it is just about getting people like you to understand this (People that don't get these jobs are open and available and there are many opportunities to go to school with no out of pocket money up front if you're struggling) and to use them to not only benefit themselves and their families, but the entire economy as well.

There are not economic benefits you hack. How can there be benefits when the lower income people invade us? Lower income people drain money away from us not the other way around. Lower income people stay in the lower income range.

Seriously, you calling me a hack and then say that trade doesn't benefit the people trading with each other.

I am reading through the rest of your post that is full of insults, and have come to the conclusion, that until you can even begin to understand about things like education and how much of a return on investment it is, or that there is a very good reason that 4yr degrees + have been around 4.5% unemployment during this recession, while high school diploma and less has been over 10%. I mean even something as basic as the benefits of trade.

I am goign to continue to respond, but can you at least admit now, that there are jobs out there that need people. It is just that there are not enough educated people to work those jobs.

At the vary least, can you see how this is the case? And if so can you not see that if we have say 20% of our unskilled workers trained to do the work that is needed, they would be far better off? I mean if nothing else right now over 10% is unemployed so they are available, and we can easily have another 10% to move up in the economy.

And if the economy has more skilled workers doesn't that mean everyone would also be better off?

medicineman · May 11, 2010

hanimmal said:
Nobody is saying to pull these jobs out of thin air, they are already here. You can refuse to believe the information out there all you want, and you seem to do that, which is a large part of the problem I have with your position on this issue. It seems like no matter what the actual case may be, your mind is set and you will not change it, for you they HAVE to leave. And not is there a better way.

http://www.kiplinger.com/businessresource/forecast/archive/even-now-firms-struggle-to-find-skilled-staff.html

"Believe it or not, many businesses are finding it tough to hire the kind of workers they need. Even in the throes of a recession, a range of companies havent been able to fill some critical job openings.
There are plenty of applicants, but many lack the right skills. Its not a labor shortage per se, but a dearth of talent. In fact, over 60% of businesses say its difficult to find qualified workers. Despite the loss of about 8 million jobs since the recession began, manufacturers as a whole have continued to seek machinists and machine operators, welders, laser die cutters and other highly skilled laborers. And engineers -- chemical, nuclear, environmental and others with special training -- remain in short supply, as do scientists. Demand for nurses and nursing teachers, physician assistants, physical therapists, pharmacists and other health care workers outstrips supply. Ditto, skilled information technology workers, from systems analysts to programmers."

Are you starting to get it? You are making up this 'out of thin air' that is not anything that I have said.

Take off the tin foil hat, there is nobody trying to force anyone.

How can you not get it, the systems are in place it is just about getting people like you to understand this (People that don't get these jobs are open and available and there are many opportunities to go to school with no out of pocket money up front if you're struggling) and to use them to not only benefit themselves and their families, but the entire economy as well.

Seriously, you calling me a hack and then say that trade doesn't benefit the people trading with each other.

I am reading through the rest of your post that is full of insults, and have come to the conclusion, that until you can even begin to understand about things like education and how much of a return on investment it is, or that there is a very good reason that 4yr degrees + have been around 4.5% unemployment during this recession, while high school diploma and less has been over 10%. I mean even something as basic as the benefits of trade.

I am goign to continue to respond, but can you at least admit now, that there are jobs out there that need people. It is just that there are not enough educated people to work those jobs.

At the vary least, can you see how this is the case? And if so can you not see that if we have say 20% of our unskilled workers trained to do the work that is needed, they would be far better off? I mean if nothing else right now over 10% is unemployed so they are available, and we can easily have another 10% to move up in the economy.

And if the economy has more skilled workers doesn't that mean everyone would also be better off?

Maybe, like in europe, we should train high school students that have no interest in conventional schooling, to do these highly skilled labor jobs. Like machinists, auto techs, any highly skilled manual labor jobs. I'll bet the dropout rate would surely subside if the students knew they would get a nice job for their efforts. As it stands, if they don't have a 3.75+ GPA, or rich parents, they are headed to McDonalds with all the illegals.

ejo · May 11, 2010

Big P said:
i think instead of calling them illigal we should call them "Criminal Immigrants" maybe then it will get it through you thick heads that the people of america have immigration guidlines that must be followed that have been voted on and written into law by elecgted reps of the people

the day they repeal those guidlines is the day you will be right. until then you are wrong wrong wrongity wrong wrong

Marijuana sale and possession are criminal acts, too... are you a criminal? Whatever you say is wrong wrong wrongity wrong wrong?

Parker said:
lmao There have been examples on this thread. Your inability to read and retain is your problem.
One example - You do know the cost of illegals births are much greater than legals births don't you? Relating to their low income and poor pre natal health care habits. Bad enough they don't pay their fair share but they cost more. This is common knowledge stemming from figures a previous poster commented on. And you say there is no proof? You're a liar or have a blinded agenda. I will continue to call you on it until you admit it.

Illegals come here for the education system. The give birth here and their kid gets to go to school AND many receive free or assisted lunches. (2 schools close to me have over 90 percent free or assisted lunches) If we don't give citizenship to the kids, which illegals know they will receive, they wouldn't be here overloading our school system. NO MORE ANCHOR BABIES.
Let me see if i get this right. An illegal gives birth on Jan 4th and sneaks into this country illegally on Jan 8th. Their child is not a citizen. The illegal sneaks into this country illegally a few days before birth and this somehow makes it okay?

Are you denying this "They wouldn't come here if they didn't receive the handouts?" No "free school and medical care" most go home.

As long as you can save $5 on your lawn being mowed and the illegal neighbor is a nice person I guess that's all that matters. No comment from the disgusting pro illegal side on what happens to the the person who looses their job because an unscrupulous company hires an illegal. Or their kid suffers education wise because illegals are burdening our school system. Or whose pay is cut and house is now lost because an illegal has artificially lowered the pay scale.
As long as there is a continued lack of respect for a true market system our country will continue to suffer. But you're okay with that because you cannot or refuse to take the process thought to the next level and don't understand at what cost. Out of sight out mind.

Opinion pieces/blogs don't count. Nor did any of the sources presented ever give information on how many illegal immigrants are on welfare.

And YET AGAIN you're making a claim without a shred of evidence.

Anyways, according to the IRS and Social security administration they're paying income taxes, social security taxes, state and city taxes... so can you please tell me how they're recieving free schooling? They have to pay the out of pocket for treatment too... don't use extreme cases to generalize the whole population. I see dead beat dads, welfare queens, and local dealers collecting unemployment, but I'm not going to assume that everyone does it because of one documented case.

hanimmal · May 11, 2010

again you are making things up. You cannot know much about economics when you don't understand how artificially controlled markets do not follow the theories of supply and demand. You refuse to answer a simply question. Since the supply of houses did not outstrip demand and since the cost to build a house came down why did housing proces skyrocket?

I am waiting on an answer for this very simple question "Since the supply of houses did not outstrip demand and since the cost to build a house came down why did housing proces skyrocket?"

Sorry I did not answer that in time for you to re-ask it in the same post in a little more condescending way.

So I started to put together a lot of information to give you a thoughtful answer, I was thinking about doing some supply and demand graphs to show you the change in prices and quantities, but realized there is a very simple answer for you, even if it is not complete as there is not just one reason, but it will in the end work out the same.

A little backround information:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/29/real_estate/foreclosure_filings_2007/
Starting at the endpoint: The number of households in foreclosure increased 79 percent in 2007( according to this article 405,000 households losing their home). There was 900,000 in 2009. But better info yet:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/opinion/15mon2.html

Foreclosure is generally a long process, with multiple filings as delinquent borrowers fall ever further behind. What is most ominous about the latest RealtyTrac numbers is that nearly 88,000 people had their homes repossessed in January, a 31 percent increase from a year ago. The big jump indicates that many foreclosures that were in process in 2009 are now beginning to move to repossession and, eventually, auction. With more than four million homes in that pipeline, the foreclosure crisis shows no sign of abating.

So 4 million homes that were sold during the boom that should never have been. And according to the census there were 119 million homes in 2008. So this would equate to about 3.33% of the inflated increase in prices due to a unnatural demand in the housing market. Possibly due to several factors like NINJA loans, interest only loans, investors looking to 'flip', Subdivision contractors, ect.

And if you look at the amount of people that are house poor it would be far worse.

So in essence you have the suppliers building houses on a massive scale, middle men (investors, real estate agents, loan officers, ect) coming in and inflating the prices of the homes to turn and sell them at huge profits (think about all the 'flipping' house shows you seen, or people you know that talked about making money on it) to a end user that is hoping to be able to sell in a few years and make their own profit.

So really the prices increasing while costs of making new homes decreased (hmm, actually have not looked into if this part is true, I just assumed it was, but this could be wrong (need to look at prices of metals, gas, lumber(which dropped I believe), wages, ect a lot to look for right now to do the math to see what it was) comes down to irrational exuberance. People were willing to pay a higher price than the market would have settled at due to ease of credit, and thinking that the profit was there when they sold. Or people taking out second and third loans from their equity that when they went to sell them, they sold at a point to not only pay those off, but also to make a little money.

Regardless of what it was, there was several demand shifts to the right that lead to increases in the quantity and prices that moved along the supply curve.

And then there was a dramatic overselling, and that is why 4 million homes have been foreclosed, and about 20 million homes in total sit empty today.

Maybe, like in europe, we should train high school students that have no interest in conventional schooling, to do these highly skilled labor jobs. Like machinists, auto techs, any highly skilled manual labor jobs. I'll bet the dropout rate would surely subside if the students knew they would get a nice job for their efforts. As it stands, if they don't have a 3.75+ GPA, or rich parents, they are headed to McDonalds with all the illegals.

Aside from the last sentence I agree. I would like to see school dropped down to maybe 9th or tenth grade and the final two years being able to be used as vocational education (Still specialized) or apprenticeship for the people that do not want to go to college.

I disagree with the last part because there are so many options open for people to get a education. People can go to a community college cheap with virtually any passing GPA and get a very good and usable degree as long as they are willing to work harder and smarter in college than they did in high school.

Parker · May 12, 2010

hanimmal said:
Nobody is saying to pull these jobs out of thin air, they are already here. You can refuse to believe the information out there all you want, and you seem to do that, which is a large part of the problem I have with your position on this issue. It seems like no matter what the actual case may be, your mind is set and you will not change it, for you they HAVE to leave. And not is there a better way.
http://www.kiplinger.com/businessresource/forecast/archive/even-now-firms-struggle-to-find-skilled-staff.html
"Believe it or not, many businesses are finding it tough to hire the kind of workers they need. Even in the throes of a recession, a range of companies haven’t been able to fill some critical job openings.
There are plenty of applicants, but many lack the right skills. It’s not a labor shortage per se, but a dearth of talent. In fact, over 60% of businesses say it’s difficult to find qualified workers. Despite the loss of about 8 million jobs since the recession began, manufacturers as a whole have continued to seek machinists and machine operators, welders, laser die cutters and other highly skilled laborers. And engineers -- chemical, nuclear, environmental and others with special training -- remain in short supply, as do scientists. Demand for nurses and nursing teachers, physician assistants, physical therapists, pharmacists and other health care workers outstrips supply. Ditto, skilled information technology workers, from systems analysts to programmers."
Are you starting to get it? You are making up this 'out of thin air' that is not anything that I have said.
Take off the tin foil hat, there is nobody trying to force anyone.
How can you not get it, the systems are in place it is just about getting people like you to understand this (People that don't get these jobs are open and available and there are many opportunities to go to school with no out of pocket money up front if you're struggling) and to use them to not only benefit themselves and their families, but the entire economy as well.
Seriously, you calling me a hack and then say that trade doesn't benefit the people trading with each other.
I am reading through the rest of your post that is full of insults, and have come to the conclusion, that until you can even begin to understand about things like education and how much of a return on investment it is, or that there is a very good reason that 4yr degrees + have been around 4.5% unemployment during this recession, while high school diploma and less has been over 10%. I mean even something as basic as the benefits of trade.
I am goign to continue to respond, but can you at least admit now, that there are jobs out there that need people. It is just that there are not enough educated people to work those jobs.

At the vary least, can you see how this is the case? And if so can you not see that if we have say 20% of our unskilled workers trained to do the work that is needed, they would be far better off? I mean if nothing else right now over 10% is unemployed so they are available, and we can easily have another 10% to move up in the economy.
And if the economy has more skilled workers doesn't that mean everyone would also be better off?

I understand you want to make things better for people. But you cannot manipulate the economy or people. You cannot change they way an entire group of people think. It is human nature. There are always going to be certain fields that are "underemployed" because not too many can tell the future. There are business forecasts that say "in 5 years we will need people in these fields" and companies do hire to fill those needs. Companies are always trying to improve themselves by getting better employees. If they did not, they would eventually fail. The problem is not the companies the problem is when the economists and politicians getting together to decide what is best instead of letting businesses engage in a free market system.

What you want is to take a segment of the population, force them out of their jobs in which they were doing fine***, and make them take other jobs in a higher level skilled environment. In essence you are wanting to create more Middle class people. The unskilled population hasn't changed in numbers just replaced.

I say it doesn't work that way. If you have unskilled workers the majority will continue to work unskilled jobs. Not everyone can do office work not everyone can do physical labor. By artificially inflating a segment of societies wages the economy suffers. We saw this twice when FDR inflated wages for certain segments of the population. Prices rose and only the ones who received the higher set wages could offset the increase.

*** the wage rate has dropped in the fields illegals work. Workers who are making $1.50 an hour less are making 3k a year less. (1.50 x 40= 60 a week x 52=3120) they were making a better living before illegals artificially lowered the money legals received. I'm saying only 3k IF you assume the legal is still getting full time work in that field.

You cannot allow illegals to live here as it will encourage more to come. We have seen this already. What do we do then? More artificial injections to inflate the system some more.

Too often we see the effects when the economy has artificial injections. We saw housing prices raise then we saw the related crash. We've seen the stock market rise and fall. Gas prices have been volatile. All because people are manipulating those markets. How can one prepare in the long term when so much around us is in chaos?

We have not protected our legal workers and it has caused hardship for those in the fields illegals have taken over. How does one prepare for the long term when the laws we have in place to do just that are not enforced?

"I am goign to continue to respond, but can you at least admit now, that there are jobs out there that need people. It is just that there are not enough educated people to work those jobs."

There should be more educated people, there should be better food, there should be better workers, there should be better air quality, There should be a lot of better things. What does that have to do with reality?

Parker · May 12, 2010

ejo said:
Marijuana sale and possession are criminal acts, too... are you a criminal? Whatever you say is wrong wrong wrongity wrong wrong?

You refuse to get it. I'm not referring to selling. I'm talking about growing and consuming for personal use. The government does have the ability to take away my rights but it is NOT okay to take them away. YOU may not care about rights, but I do.

ejo said:
Opinion pieces/blogs don't count. Nor did any of the sources presented ever give information on how many illegal immigrants are on welfare.
And YET AGAIN you're making a claim without a shred of evidence.

Anyways, according to the IRS and Social security administration they're paying income taxes, social security taxes, state and city taxes

You keep forgetting the people who lost their jobs to illegals would be doing the exact same thing. But as long as you can save $5 on your weekly lawn fee it doesn't matter right?

ejo said:
... so can you please tell me how they're recieving free schooling? They have to pay the out of pocket for treatment too... don't use extreme cases to generalize the whole population. I see dead beat dads, welfare queens, and local dealers collecting unemployment, but I'm not going to assume that everyone does it because of one documented case.

Okay just for arguments sake lets say for some reason illegals don't drain the economy. Because according to you illegals are somehow different than others who make the same amount of money. It is a known fact that lower income people receive more in benefits than they pay in. So when we make them legal citizens what happens?

I want you to actually use your brain. I want you to talk with people in the construction business and landscaping business. Ask them if cash is ever used as a form of payment and if taxes taken out. Please tell me how the IRS knows that people are being paid cash? Can they read minds? How hard is it to understand?

I am not using extreme cases, Only an uninformed person like yourself would claim that. How can you deny the reports about the cost of illegals unless you can't read?

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/002935.html
Florida spends at least $4.3 billion on illegals.

Analysis of the latest Census data indicates Florida’s illegal immigrant population is costing the state’s taxpayers $4.3 billion per year for education, medical care and incarceration. Even if the estimated taxes collected from illegal immigrant workers are subtracted, net outlays still amount to more than $3.3 billion per year. The annual fiscal burden amounts to about $575 per Florida household headed by a native-born resident.

Those costs do not include local jail costs, law enforcement activities to catch illegals who commit additional crimes, or the costs to victims of crimes committed by illegals, or security costs expended due to higher risk of crime from higher crime rate immigrant groups. Costs of welfare and education for the children of illegals are not included.

http://morganwrites.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/californias-illegal-aliens-cost-taxpayers-nearly-9-billion-a-year/
California’s Illegal Aliens Cost Taxpayers Nearly $9 Billion A Year

Martin’s study looks specifically at the costs of educating illegal immigrants’ children, providing medical care to illegal immigrants and jailing those convicted of committing crimes. The report estimates the total cost at $10.5 billion each year, but that is offset by about $1.7 billion in taxes that illegal immigrants pay.

po'thead · May 12, 2010

The real fact of the matter is that america needs it's good ol' slave class. That's what illegal immigrants are, they work for what they can get and will never ever have the chance to move up in society. This whole topic will be moot soon enough, once the north american union takes place.

hanimmal · May 12, 2010

I understand you want to make things better for people. But you cannot manipulate the economy or people. You cannot change they way an entire group of people think. It is human nature. There are always going to be certain fields that are "underemployed" because not too many can tell the future. There are business forecasts that say "in 5 years we will need people in these fields" and companies do hire to fill those needs. Companies are always trying to improve themselves by getting better employees. If they did not, they would eventually fail. The problem is not the companies the problem is when the economists and politicians getting together to decide what is best instead of letting businesses engage in a free market system.

What you want is to take a segment of the population, force them out of their jobs in which they were doing fine***, and make them take other jobs in a higher level skilled environment. In essence you are wanting to create more Middle class people. The unskilled population hasn't changed in numbers just replaced.

I think you are too hung up on thinking that anyone is trying to force anything onto anyone. What I am saying is the opposite. People need to decide for themselves enough is enough, and use the system that is already in place to lift themselves to a different income bracket.

And to use their new skills to secure a good stable life doing what they want to be doing. The only problem is to get people to understand these opportunities are out there and there are plenty of jobs that need these workers to improve their skills so they can work them. And using another segment of even more unskilled workers as a scapegoat to jobs that are dwindling is counter productive.

And these are not forecasts (although those are good to keep an eye on in my opinion too and is why I put my fiance' through pharmacy school to get her doctor) , but jobs available today.

I am very much for the free market, Having 200 million people deciding what is the best way to spend their money is far more efficient than any computer program or politician that is unable to understand math much less economics at any relevant level.

Again I am not for forcing anyone in or out of a job. I feel that is wrong too. And that is why I type this. I feel that the more people out there that know about these jobs, and stop the misconceptions about illegals stealing jobs.

That somehow they are the reason we have such a high unemployment rate, or that they cost us more money, ect. When in reality there is plenty of jobs in america, it is just that we do not have enough skilled workers because they did not take advantage of the education system.

And if more people like you or anyone else is reading this understand the opportunities out there, maybe someone you know is struggling, you help point them in the direction of a local community college that will allow them to take night classes for maybe two years to get a degree to work in a field that has plenty of open jobs and a high demand. This is what we need to be doing, helping our American citizens that are stuck in the low skilled jobs move from very insecure (and usually highly inefficient companies that eventually close down and move to were everything is cheaper because it takes no skill to do the job) jobs to something better all the way around.

I say it doesn't work that way. If you have unskilled workers the majority will continue to work unskilled jobs. Not everyone can do office work not everyone can do physical labor. By artificially inflating a segment of societies wages the economy suffers. We saw this twice when FDR inflated wages for certain segments of the population. Prices rose and only the ones who received the higher set wages could offset the increase.

*** the wage rate has dropped in the fields illegals work. Workers who are making $1.50 an hour less are making 3k a year less. (1.50 x 40= 60 a week x 52=3120) they were making a better living before illegals artificially lowered the money legals received. I'm saying only 3k IF you assume the legal is still getting full time work in that field.

I am not sure what you mean by inflating anyones wages. The jobs that I am talking about are suffering due to the low quality of the labor force we have. By going into those fields society is saying your work is worth this much, that is not an artificial inflation. Is that what you meant?

You cannot allow illegals to live here as it will encourage more to come. We have seen this already. What do we do then? More artificial injections to inflate the system some more.

Too often we see the effects when the economy has artificial injections. We saw housing prices raise then we saw the related crash. We've seen the stock market rise and fall. Gas prices have been volatile. All because people are manipulating those markets. How can one prepare in the long term when so much around us is in chaos?

We have not protected our legal workers and it has caused hardship for those in the fields illegals have taken over. How does one prepare for the long term when the laws we have in place to do just that are not enforced?

Just like the housing bubble, there can be immigration bubbles too. Just like waves of immigration before there will be waves in the future, and there is one happening now (at least it seems like it is have not actually checked the numbers on it). As Mexico gains more businesses and gets their shit together with trade and crime people will choose to stay home more. And as more mexicans come here they are going to start undercutting eachother more and more meaning there will be a squeeze. And as we reach the equilibrium wages for illegal workers they will stop coming here.

And as we legalize marijuana that will cut off a lot of that crime (I don't see coke being legalized anytime soon so that will continue for a while). And this is how I think the government should really start to think. This has nothing to do with economists. Unfortunantly they have no votes in the government and ultimately it is the politicians that put in these very economically stupid and counterproductive laws, that somehow everyone of them is not at fault for when they don't do what their rhetoric said that it would.

There should be more educated people, there should be better food, there should be better workers, there should be better air quality, There should be a lot of better things. What does that have to do with reality?

Because all these things can happen. If we can just end all the junk out there on both sides of any debate and figure out where the truth lies, we can actually decide for ourselves how important it is.

But if one side is saying to make something illegal and anyone that disagrees is a bad person and doesn't know anything, and the other is saying it is good for society and anyone that disagrees is stupid, we will never get anywhere close to the truth and to where we actually should go. Be it green technologies, illegal immigrants or drugs you can find that they are all argued the same way. We need to introduce a little intelligence and data to these discussions, and not allow anything less to derail actual talks on it.

Five myths about immigration

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