Thank jawbrodt , our a legend to me mate, honestly, thanks for the advise this is my first so i'm a virgin at this mate and you soothed my fears, hopefully my xmas is gonna be happy. r1tony thanks to you mate too, i'm gonna be looking in to all this some more, i have limited space, one tent so 12/12 will hopefully this will work for me till i can expand and afford tow stages, thanks, respect guys