foreclosure? prove it bitch!!(good read)

joepro

Well-Known Member
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29242063/
ZEPHYRHILLS, Fla. - Kathy Lovelace lost her job and was about to lose her house, too. But then she made a seemingly simple request of the bank: Show me the original mortgage paperwork.
And just like that, the foreclosure proceedings came to a standstill.
Lovelace and other homeowners around the country are managing to stave off foreclosure by employing a strategy that goes to the heart of the whole nationwide mess. During the real estate frenzy of the past decade, mortgages were sold and resold, bundled into securities and peddled to investors. In many cases, the original note signed by the homeowner was lost, stored away in a distant warehouse or destroyed. Persuading a judge to compel production of hard-to-find or nonexistent documents can, at the very least, delay foreclosure, buying the homeowner some time and turning up the pressure on the lender to renegotiate the mortgage. "I'm going to hang on for dear life until they can prove to me it belongs to them," said Lovelace, a 50-year-old divorced mother who owns a $200,000 home in Zephyrhills, near Tampa. "I'll try everything I can because it's all I have left." In interviews with The Associated Press, lawyers, homeowners and advocates outlined the produce-the-note strategy. Exactly how many homeowners have employed it is unknown. Nor is it clear how successful it has been; some judges are more sympathetic than others.
More than 2.3 million homeowners faced foreclosure proceedings last year and millions more are in danger of losing their homes. On Wednesday, President Obama will unveil a plan to spend at least $50 billion to help homeowners fend off foreclosure. Chris Hoyer, a Tampa lawyer whose Consumer Warning Network Web site offers the free court documents Lovelace used to file her request, has played a major role in promoting the produce-the-note strategy. "We knew early on that the only relief that would ever come to people would be to the people who were in their houses," Hoyer said. "Nobody was going to fashion any relief for people who have already lost their houses. So your only hope was to hang on any way you could." Tom Deutsch, deputy executive director of the American Securitization Forum, a group that represents banks, law firms and investors, dismissed the strategy as merely a stalling tactic, saying homeowners are "making lawyers jump through procedural hoops to delay what's likely to be inevitable." Deutsch said the original note is almost always electronically retained and can eventually be found. Judges are often willing to accept electronic documentation. And lenders are sometimes allowed to produce other paperwork to establish they are the holder of a loan. Still, assembling such documents to a judge's satisfaction takes time, which to homeowners is the point. Lovelace filed her produce-the-note demand last fall after the bank acknowledged that her original mortgage document had been lost or destroyed. Since then, there has been no activity on the foreclosure — no letters from the lender, no court filings. The law firm handling the foreclosure for the lender refused to comment. A University of Iowa study last year suggested that companies servicing mortgages are often negligent when it comes to producing the documentation to support foreclosure. In the study of more than 1,700 bankruptcy cases stemming from home foreclosures, the original note was missing more than 40 percent of the time, and other pieces of required documentation also were routinely left out. The first big success of the produce-the-note movement came in 2007 when a federal judge in Cleveland threw out 14 foreclosures by Deutsche Bank National Trust Co. because the bank failed to produce the original notes.
Michael Silver, a lawyer for two of the families in that case, said at least one eventually lost their home. Still, he considers that a success. "From the perspective of the person who's in the home, you may have kept them in the house another 10 or 12 months," he said. "If I can get a result with economic benefits to a client, then I think I won."
Democratic Rep. Marcy Kaptur of Ohio endorsed the strategy in a fiery speech on the House floor during debate on the federal bank bailout last month.
"Don't leave your home," she said. "Because you know what? When those companies say they have your mortgage, unless you have a lawyer that can put his or her finger on that mortgage, you don't have that mortgage, and you are going to find they can't find the paper up there on Wall Street."
April Charney, head of foreclosure defense for Jacksonville Area Legal Aid in Florida, said the strategy has been so successful for her that she now travels around the country to train other lawyers in how to use it. She said she has gotten cases delayed for years by demanding that lenders produce paperwork they cannot find. "This is an army of lawyers getting out there to stop foreclosures so we can get to the serious business of creating solutions," Charney said. "Nothing good is going to happen as long as we continue to bleed homeowners."
 

doggod

Active Member
What a wwaste of time and money. Ilost my job over 1 year ago and still make my payments. I have no pity on those who expect a free ride on my dime. If you know you can be placed in situation where you will not be able to afford the payment do not do it. Thesepeople should not have used as much of their income as a house payment. And everybody should have enough cash available to live for 1 year without income before investing in real estate. These simple facts where ignored when Clinton forced banks to allow borrowers to use more than 30% of their income to pay the mortage. Add to that allmost all fell for the variable rate loans which always go up.
 

joepro

Well-Known Member
First, it's not your dime, it's our dime!!
Second, mortgages were bundled into securities and a large % were sold to over-sea investors.
Know where your 'dime' is headed!!
Third, someone staying in their home is 100% better then have it foreclosed on, not just for the person in trouble.
waiting for a foreclosure to happen, then pay off the investers, helps us home owners how?(please explain)

What if it was your mother lost her job and was about to lose her home?
That changes everything doesn't it?
self centered fuckin prick!!
Besides, someone fighting the bank cost you more 'dimes' how?
Infact I can show you that it will cost you less 'dimes' the longer these people can stay in their homes.
 

BadDog40

Well-Known Member
What about all the millions of people who already lost their house? Where's the bailout for them?
 

joepro

Well-Known Member
What about all the millions of people who already lost their house? Where's the bailout for them?
Depends on who where speaking about.
Are talking about the 'flipper' who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar?
Are talking about people when bought 2 or 3 vacation homes? Are we talking about the low income person who shouldn't of even had the option in the first place? The 500k illegals who own homes? Or the person who signed a note where it doubles because of the contract wasn't read and fully understood? Alot of people took out second mortgages for school or home repairs and now find themselfs jobless. I don't think it's fair to just group everyone together..

To answer your question....I simply can't.
Not sure if there is even a right answer.
 

misshestermoffitt

New Member
I think it's a good way for homeowners to try to help themselves. Any company that knows what they are doing will know exactly where that paperwork is.

My mortgage has been sold about 4 times. Citibank just sold it last month, first they take my tax dollars then they dump my mortgage. If I'm ever in trouble, I will remember this plan. Prove it, show me the origional.


Bwhahahahahahaha


PS Dog, not everyone who is having mortgage problems was irresponsible, some people lost their jobs, others had catastrophic medical expenses, there are a lot of reasons people who are very responsible lose their homes.
 

medicineman

New Member
First, it's not your dime, it's our dime!!
Second, mortgages were bundled into securities and a large % were sold to over-sea investors.
Know where your 'dime' is headed!!
Third, someone staying in their home is 100% better then have it foreclosed on, not just for the person in trouble.
waiting for a foreclosure to happen, then pay off the investers, helps us home owners how?(please explain)

What if it was your mother lost her job and was about to lose her home?
That changes everything doesn't it?
self centered fuckin prick!!
Besides, someone fighting the bank cost you more 'dimes' how?
Infact I can show you that it will cost you less 'dimes' the longer these people can stay in their homes.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Isn't it funny how people that have a good job and are getting by fine like to berate those less fortunate. Like they decided to get fired or layed off so they wouldn't have enough to pay their mortgage, Yeah, that would be my fucking plan, lay down on the job, get fired and lose my fucking house. What an unbelievable dipshit.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29242063/
ZEPHYRHILLS, Fla. - Kathy Lovelace lost her job and was about to lose her house, too. But then she made a seemingly simple request of the bank: Show me the original mortgage paperwork.
And just like that, the foreclosure proceedings came to a standstill.
Lovelace and other homeowners around the country are managing to stave off foreclosure by employing a strategy that goes to the heart of the whole nationwide mess. During the real estate frenzy of the past decade, mortgages were sold and resold, bundled into securities and peddled to investors. In many cases, the original note signed by the homeowner was lost, stored away in a distant warehouse or destroyed. Persuading a judge to compel production of hard-to-find or nonexistent documents can, at the very least, delay foreclosure, buying the homeowner some time and turning up the pressure on the lender to renegotiate the mortgage. "I'm going to hang on for dear life until they can prove to me it belongs to them," said Lovelace, a 50-year-old divorced mother who owns a $200,000 home in Zephyrhills, near Tampa. "I'll try everything I can because it's all I have left." In interviews with The Associated Press, lawyers, homeowners and advocates outlined the produce-the-note strategy. Exactly how many homeowners have employed it is unknown. Nor is it clear how successful it has been; some judges are more sympathetic than others.
More than 2.3 million homeowners faced foreclosure proceedings last year and millions more are in danger of losing their homes. On Wednesday, President Obama will unveil a plan to spend at least $50 billion to help homeowners fend off foreclosure. Chris Hoyer, a Tampa lawyer whose Consumer Warning Network Web site offers the free court documents Lovelace used to file her request, has played a major role in promoting the produce-the-note strategy. "We knew early on that the only relief that would ever come to people would be to the people who were in their houses," Hoyer said. "Nobody was going to fashion any relief for people who have already lost their houses. So your only hope was to hang on any way you could." Tom Deutsch, deputy executive director of the American Securitization Forum, a group that represents banks, law firms and investors, dismissed the strategy as merely a stalling tactic, saying homeowners are "making lawyers jump through procedural hoops to delay what's likely to be inevitable." Deutsch said the original note is almost always electronically retained and can eventually be found. Judges are often willing to accept electronic documentation. And lenders are sometimes allowed to produce other paperwork to establish they are the holder of a loan. Still, assembling such documents to a judge's satisfaction takes time, which to homeowners is the point. Lovelace filed her produce-the-note demand last fall after the bank acknowledged that her original mortgage document had been lost or destroyed. Since then, there has been no activity on the foreclosure — no letters from the lender, no court filings. The law firm handling the foreclosure for the lender refused to comment. A University of Iowa study last year suggested that companies servicing mortgages are often negligent when it comes to producing the documentation to support foreclosure. In the study of more than 1,700 bankruptcy cases stemming from home foreclosures, the original note was missing more than 40 percent of the time, and other pieces of required documentation also were routinely left out. The first big success of the produce-the-note movement came in 2007 when a federal judge in Cleveland threw out 14 foreclosures by Deutsche Bank National Trust Co. because the bank failed to produce the original notes.
Michael Silver, a lawyer for two of the families in that case, said at least one eventually lost their home. Still, he considers that a success. "From the perspective of the person who's in the home, you may have kept them in the house another 10 or 12 months," he said. "If I can get a result with economic benefits to a client, then I think I won."
Democratic Rep. Marcy Kaptur of Ohio endorsed the strategy in a fiery speech on the House floor during debate on the federal bank bailout last month.
"Don't leave your home," she said. "Because you know what? When those companies say they have your mortgage, unless you have a lawyer that can put his or her finger on that mortgage, you don't have that mortgage, and you are going to find they can't find the paper up there on Wall Street."
April Charney, head of foreclosure defense for Jacksonville Area Legal Aid in Florida, said the strategy has been so successful for her that she now travels around the country to train other lawyers in how to use it. She said she has gotten cases delayed for years by demanding that lenders produce paperwork they cannot find. "This is an army of lawyers getting out there to stop foreclosures so we can get to the serious business of creating solutions," Charney said. "Nothing good is going to happen as long as we continue to bleed homeowners."
Am I supposed to feel anything but contempt for these people?

They know good damn and well that the bank loaned them the money. Note or no note. For them to throw paper obstacles in the way is dishonest and fraudulent. I hope they all get foreclosed on, and die of exposure, it'll improve the gene pool.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
I think it's a good way for homeowners to try to help themselves. Any company that knows what they are doing will know exactly where that paperwork is.

My mortgage has been sold about 4 times. Citibank just sold it last month, first they take my tax dollars then they dump my mortgage. If I'm ever in trouble, I will remember this plan. Prove it, show me the origional.


Bwhahahahahahaha


PS Dog, not everyone who is having mortgage problems was irresponsible, some people lost their jobs, others had catastrophic medical expenses, there are a lot of reasons people who are very responsible lose their homes.
Miss, that's not the point. The point is that some people are dishonest (like those demanding that the bank produce the note)(and the bankers), and others are not. When people dishonestly make demands that they know could easily be satisfied (potentially) they are engaging in fraud, deception, and so on and so forth.

Yes, it sucks that they are losing their homes, but it sucks even more that people like me are going to be stuck making it so that they can keep their f* homes. I don't have a mortgage, I don't really want one, but I do want to be able to save up to buy a house (which is the responsible way of going about it.) Instead, I'm stuck watching my tax dollars go to waste on dishonest gutless people.

Life's a bitch, mostly because of people like the one's in this article. Dishonest, self-centered, egotistical assholes with out a shred of human dignity, or honor.

What was it that was written on the Decl. of Independence.

"We pledge our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor."

With out honor, you aren't SHIT.
 

medicineman

New Member
Am I supposed to feel anything but contempt for these people?

They know good damn and well that the bank loaned them the money. Note or no note. For them to throw paper obstacles in the way is dishonest and fraudulent. I hope they all get foreclosed on, and die of exposure, it'll improve the gene pool.
You certainly are one cold blooded SOB. I agree that the house flippers and the speculators should get their nuts pinched off, but if it is your primary residence, then you should get a chance to save it.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Am I supposed to feel anything but contempt for these people?

They know good damn and well that the bank loaned them the money. Note or no note. For them to throw paper obstacles in the way is dishonest and fraudulent. I hope they all get foreclosed on, and die of exposure, it'll improve the gene pool.
You certainly are one cold blooded SOB. I agree that the house flippers and the speculators should get their nuts pinched off, but if it is your primary residence, then you should get a chance to save it.
Our tax dollars are being wasted on these people, and you think I'm cold-blooded. How the hell am I being cold blooded. These people had their chance, and they blew it, now the government is giving them money to blow my chances, too. At this rate, by the time I have enough saved up to buy a house property taxes are going to be so insane that it's not going to be worth the effort.

Let's not forget the effects of the monetary inflation caused by the fact that the Federal Government is essentially producing this money out of thin air to fund all these bail outs.

I already explained why that doesn't add value to the economy. Why the hell should I volunteer to get stabbed in the back by the self-serving, assholes that call themselves our public servants, even if it means helping these people?

It's not my fault the government's consistently fucked up the economy. Why should I pay for it?

Is it your fault the government consistently fucked up the economy?
Should you pay for it, since it is not?

What about Miss, should she be stuck paying for our government's stupidity?

I don't think these people should be either, but between my survival and their's, I'll choose mine, ty very much.

Besides, there's only one way to resolve this issue permanently and that's for the government to let the markets do what they would be doing... Correcting themselves for the malinvestment of the last 30 years.

Malinvestment caused by inflating homeprices spiking due to a bubble, caused primarily by the extension of easy credit to people that did not have plans to survive should the SHIT HIT THE FAN.

Hell, if the shit hits the fan, I already know what's going to happen to me. I give up the vehicle that I'm making payments on, and go back home, and start over. Life's a bitch.

That doesn't give people the excuse for acting with out honor, and decency though. Especially when their lack of honor and decency costs the rest of society time, effort, money, security, and freedom.
 

misshestermoffitt

New Member
But you forget TBT, if the customer had a beef with the mortgage company they would get papered to death to avoid it. It's about time the little guy finds a way to bury shit in court, lord knows it's been happening the other way around for decades.

Any large company wants to avoid something, they bury you in paperwork, now the shoe's on the other foot and they are finding it doesn't fit so well.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
But you forget TBT, if the customer had a beef with the mortgage company they would get papered to death to avoid it. It's about time the little guy finds a way to bury shit in court, lord knows it's been happening the other way around for decades.

Any large company wants to avoid something, they bury you in paperwork, now the shoe's on the other foot and they are finding it doesn't fit so well.
I guess you're right about that. It's nice to see that the courts aren't completely biased, and that the lobbyists haven't taken over our country completely yet. Though I'm pretty sure that if there is a critical mass reached of people doing this the lobbyists for the banks will probably try getting some stupid law passed to prevent this.
 

misshestermoffitt

New Member
and BTW I've paid a good 14K in property taxes over the last 14 years, so I'm paying for someones stupidity.

So if there is ever a time that I can't pay my mortgage and am facing forclosure, I will think back about that 14K I've paid for the privlage of having a mortgage and I will pull the "show me the orgional documents" act myself. Maybe if I had that 14K in my bank account for security, I wouldn't have to think that way, but I don't.........
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
and BTW I've paid a good 14K in property taxes over the last 14 years, so I'm paying for someones stupidity.

So if there is ever a time that I can't pay my mortgage and am facing forclosure, I will think back about that 14K I've paid for the privlage of having a mortgage and I will pull the "show me the orgional documents" act myself. Maybe if I had that 14K in my bank account for security, I wouldn't have to think that way, but I don't.........
I thought you owned your house, :: shrugs :: regardless. I'm assuming that you are intelligent enough to have a Go To Hell Plan, for if shit Goes to Hell.
 

misshestermoffitt

New Member
I do own my house but I still have a mortgage and I still have to pay property tax. Owning free and clear does not absolve a person of paying property taxes.

I do have a go to hell plan now, my mortgage has been sold and resold , show me the documents, good fucking luck. First they were in IL, then they were in CA then they were in IL now they're in TX. Citi used to own my mortgage, they probaby threw the documents on the bonfire when they were getting rid of evidence.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
I do own my house but I still have a mortgage and I still have to pay property tax. Owning free and clear does not absolve a person of paying property taxes.

I do have a go to hell plan now, my mortgage has been sold and resold , show me the documents, good fucking luck. First they were in IL, then they were in CA then they were in IL now they're in TX. Citi used to own my mortgage, they probaby threw the documents on the bonfire when they were getting rid of evidence.
Wrong Evidence, D'oh
 

joepro

Well-Known Member
TBT, your thought is of personal position, and I agree fuck them!! but you have over looked home owners are stuck in a web and are bound to each other. Again, I see where you're coming from about not wanting to come out of pocket. It's not right, it's just one more issue that is on the long list of 'that aint right.'

States not able to refund income tax checks while having already spent any future money, plus facter in the sales of it's tollways/parking meters/red light cams and everything eles that can be liquidated, already has been on the state level.
I think this more then justifies a tax revolt. It's just one thing after another with these fuckin clowns.
hahaha back to subject....
TBT, let's say after 10 yrs of savings, you finaly buy your own home and you're 5 yrs into a 30 yr fixed loan at 6%.
Fact is, if you didn't come up with 20% of let's say a $250k home ($50k cash on hand) you will have a PMI payment and other interest added to your monthly total. In the last 5 yrs you have really only paid into the intrest and very little into the principal. Boom! the housing market crashes, your home is now worth 25k less then what you owe.
Why? because of the homes in your area are being foreclosed on and sold dirt cheep or remains empty and is being sold for 65% of it's value. Let's say every house on your block went into foreclosure but you, you have any idea what that does to your home value? Let it or not, these foreclosures need to stop. It's become a hemorrhage and the only way I see out of it is....we have no choice but to bailout alot of people.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
TBT, your thought is of personal position, and I agree fuck them!! but you have over looked home owners are stuck in a web and are bound to each other. Again, I see where you're coming from about not wanting to come out of pocket. It's not right, it's just one more issue that is on the long list of 'that aint right.'

States not able to refund income tax checks while having already spent any future money, plus facter in the sales of it's tollways/parking meters/red light cams and everything eles that can be liquidated, already has been on the state level.
I think this more then justifies a tax revolt. It's just one thing after another with these fuckin clowns.
hahaha back to subject....
TBT, let's say after 10 yrs of savings, you finaly buy your own home and you're 5 yrs into a 30 yr fixed loan at 6%.
Fact is, if you didn't come up with 20% of let's say a $250k home ($50k cash on hand) you will have a PMI payment and other interest added to your monthly total. In the last 5 yrs you have really only paid into the intrest and very little into the principal. Boom! the housing market crashes, your home is now worth 25k less then what you owe.
Why? because of the homes in your area are being foreclosed on and sold dirt cheep or remains empty and is being sold for 65% of it's value. Let's say every house on your block went into foreclosure but you, you have any idea what that does to your home value? Let it or not, these foreclosures need to stop. It's become a hemorrhage and the only way I see out of it is....we have no choice but to bailout alot of people.
Funny, after 10 years of savings, I plan on having enough to buy the house outright. Or having sufficient savings to have the dividend income pay the mortgage for me.

As far as if the housing market crashes. So?

Why should I care about that? I didn't buy the house as an investment, I bought it as a place to live. If it's comfortable, and I like it, why should I care what home values are doing?

The problem with home values crashing, isn't home values crashing. It's the people that used equity in their homes as a source of credit. They are suddenly facing margin calls caused the assets securing the debt no longer match the amount of the debt.

1929 All over again, except now it's crazy homeowners who bought into the hysteria that prices of houses never fall. Obviously these people didn't talk to Californians in the 60s (defense sector going bust) or Seattle in the 60s (Will the last person to leave Seattle, please turn the lights off? (Lumber going bust)), or the people in Michigan right now (Detroit having all those difficulties.)

Actually, I think if any one should be stuck paying for those mortgages it should be all the retarded advertising companies on Madison Ave. That were producing stupid advertisements promising that housing prices never fall. They created the hype, and the media, government and mortgage lenders went along with the ride (mostly because it was a fun ride while it lasted.)

Madison Ave. and their stupid ads are to blame. (Well, partially, :) )
 
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