Georgia attacks S. Ossetia, Russia prevents genocide

Wow! An "independent" news source like Al Jazeera says the Ruskies aren't playing fair and are distorting numbers....no way dude!

Al Jazeera English - Europe - US: Russia ready to sign truce deal

Excerpts from-

Marc Garlasco, from the New York-based Human Rights Watch organisation, told Al Jazeera that both Russia and Georgia were using indiscriminate weapons in the conflict, including cluster bombs.

Rice has called on Russia to start withdrawing from Georgia [Reuters]

Speaking in Tbilisi, Garlasco said: "We've been very concerned that both sides have not been following the Geneva Conventions, and supporting international humanitarian law here.


"It's quite shocking that in the year that 107 countries have agreed to ban cluster bombs, that the Russians are using them in this conflict now.


"Clearly we need to have some international body come here and do some credible investigation.


"Just to look at statements of casualties – the Russians are claiming 2,000 dead in South Ossetia - our investigation has shown 44 at this point. So we really need to have someone discern what the truth is."


Russian troops entered Georgia following Tbsili's August 7 offensive to retake South Ossetia, which achieved de facto independence from Georgia in the 1990s during the breakup of the Soviet Union.


Moscow, which firmly backs South Ossetia and Abkhazia, has issued Russian passports to most people in the two territories.

OnSolomonsGrave said:

Obama did not say it was above his skill level, he said it was above his pay grade, Aka. up to god. He also went on to say that the real problem is the prevention of the pregnancy to begin with, which I believe is the real problem, and for one am glad he took that stance.

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Okay, I misquoted him. My bad. Same thing. Skill level or pay grade.

Semantics aside, the dithering is what bothers me most. He knows his position. I believe he can't bring himself to admit it publicly, thus opening himself up to criticism.

read below.

Maybe the correct stance is to not push your views on others, esp when it comes to moral issues. And sorry he has a stance, just because you disagree it doesn't make it dithering.

Wasnt directed at liberty lovers that actually understand that some action needs to be taken to re-establish liberty. Im just talking about the people that claim to love freedom, but have never experienced the freedom as outlined in the constitution.

ViRedd said:

I hope you're not including those of us on the site who are of a libertarian mine, who realize what has been lost and are trying to gain it back.

Vi

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Was totally blazed for the first time in a couple days. Yeah Barrack Obama scares the shit out of me for as many reasons Ron Paul intrigued me. The socialist shit has got to go. Not to mention, anyone that really listens to Obama and follows him can see lots of flip flops. I wish Abortion and Gay Rights were not such a huge part of the presidential race. Seems like those problems can be dictated by someone else.

Johnnyorganic said:

Actually I said I have sufficient knowledge about John McCain, but I am not completely comfortable with him. He's a known commodity.

Barak Obama is the unknown. Only this week-end did I find out that he considers the abortion question above his 'skill level.' This I do not find acceptable in a candidate for President of the United States: fear of revealing his position. This tendency scares me about Obama.

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OnSolomonsGrave said:

Maybe the correct stance is to not push your views on others, esp when it comes to moral issues. And sorry he has a stance, just because you disagree it doesn't make it dithering.

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He seeks to be President and he punted on an issue many Americans care deeply about. That meets my definition of dithering and it is incompatible with a candidate of that magnitude.

It's not punting when you bring up the REAL issue, which is stopping unplanned pregnancy's.

devknob said:

Was totally blazed for the first time in a couple days. Yeah Barrack Obama scares the shit out of me for as many reasons Ron Paul intrigued me. The socialist shit has got to go. Not to mention, anyone that really listens to Obama and follows him can see lots of flip flops. I wish Abortion and Gay Rights were not such a huge part of the presidential race. Seems like those problems can be dictated by someone else.

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Like it or not they are part of the national dialogue. In truth, the Federal government has no say on either issue. Both are relegated to the states to decide as per the 10th Amendment.

Personally I am against abortion, but I understand why society tolerates it. I am the same with Capital Punishment. Against it, but understand why it is in place.

Gay rights. I say to each his own. Gays are entitled to the same legalized misery straight people are eligible for: matrimony.

Johnny does the fact that the only real reason people bring up abortion is because it gets them either the lib vote or the evangelical vote...because we both know it's not going to change so it matters dick really what their opinion on it is.

OnSolomonsGrave said:

Johnny does the fact that the only real reason people bring up abortion is because it gets them either the lib vote or the evangelical vote...because we both know it's not going to change so it matters dick really what their opinion on it is.

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Interesting point. Yes, the hardliners on both sides have their opinions which will remain unmoved regardless of the candidate. Kool-aid drinkers aside, virtually every individual holds an opinion on explosive issues. Abortion is no exception. Individual opinion does not always follow party. Independents can pick and choose their stances free of party dogma.

My beef is that it is a national issue in the first place. Each state should determine this issue and all issues not specifically designated to the Federal Government via the Constitution. Federal meddling is as inappropriate here as it is in the War on Drugs. It is yet another example of Federal Government interference in our personal lives. Our privacy.

OnSolomonsGrave said:

It's not punting when you bring up the REAL issue, which is stopping unplanned pregnancy's.

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That's a nice idea, but quaint. If it were possible, would it not have happened already?

Eliminating abortion by stopping unplanned pregnancy is impossible and will not happen. NOW would never stand for anything resembling a restriction on abortion access. You know that. Obama knows it, too.

Perhaps we should move this thread back on topic.

OnSolomonsGrave said:

Maybe the correct stance is to not push your views on others, esp when it comes to moral issues. And sorry he has a stance, just because you disagree it doesn't make it dithering.

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Do you feel the same way when immoral issues are being push down our throats?

Vi

who is making you do immoral things viredd?

OnSolomonsGrave said:

who is making you do immoral things viredd?

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Its not that anyone is "making" me do immoral things. You took issue with moral issues being shoved down our throats, which is usually a leftist/libertarian complaint ... and one of mine as well. I was just wondering if you felt the same way when our legislators pass immoral laws. Do you support them, or are you opposed to them as you would be opposed to those who champion government action to promote laws that they deem "moral?"

In other words, you would be against the Christian Right imposing their beliefs upon us right, but would you be opposed to immoral laws that limit freedoms of the individual? Progressive income taxation and socialized medicine come to mind here. ~lol~

Vi

I believe you are misguided in thinking taxation is a moral issue, but I can agree with you on the socialized medicine, I would rather just have a better health care system in general for everyone, not necessarily ran by the government but I would say our medical and pharmaceutical are in need of some serious reform.

devknob said:

Yeah, that old man on Russian television is spreading propaganda, and so is that 12 year old girl and her mom.

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It wouldn't be the first time Mother Russia coerced old men and children into "selling" Russian policy.

Having said that, Georgia is no saint either; there is much history behind Geogia/Russia/S. Ossetia/N Ossetia, not to mention US involvement in this region, and why everyone wants control of South Ossetia; major transport routes, gas pipelines, etc..

The Ossetians are spread across several countries including Russia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Turkey and others. The home base is Ossetia itself which is also divided between countries; the north in Russia and the south in Georgia. The goal of the South Ossetian separatists is to either gain its independence or unite with North Ossetia, which lies in Russia.

Ethnically, the Ossetians are of Iranian stock and speak their own language, which is closely related to Pashto, and more distantly to Farsi.

They claim to be the descendents of the ancient Alanian and Scythian tribes and therefore to have been inhabiting the South Caucasus for thousands of years. The Georgians, on the other hand, are a Caucasian people and speak a language belonging to the Caucasian family. The Georgians also claim to have ancient roots in the South Caucasus, while at the same time arguing that the Ossetians only migrated to the Caucasus between the 17th and 19th centuries.

Along religious lines, both are predominately Orthodox Christian, with a Sunni Islam minority among the Ossetians.

Therefore, the conflict between the two peoples is not based on religion, but rather on ethnicity, and territory.

This is not the first conflict between Georgia, South Ossetia and Russia - it's been a hot zone since the turn of the the 20th century.


sherry

Johnnyorganic.

I never read pravda. Im going off the eyewitness accounts. Just cause im not going to scour the web for talking points to argue with you, doesnt mean I lost or im wrong as you insinuated on my profile.

Since that 12 year old girl, her mom, and the older American gentleman are "spreading Russian propaganda" and just happened to be in the region at the time the Georgians attacked the S Ossetians - maybe we should use the PATRIOT act on them and throw them in jail without lawyers or trial for several years. Maybe even ship that 12 year old girl down to Gitmo to get waterboarded until she tells the truth.

My friend was reading the news midnight 8-8-08 and the initial reports were this "russian propaganda" about Georgians committing genocide on the S Ossetians. The news changed its tune the next day.

I don't want to argue this with you. Plenty of people know the truth, and like I said before, there is nothing I can tell you that you wont come up with an excuse for.

It wouldnt be the first time the United States was convinced of its own war propaganda either. I wouldnt be surprised if somewhere out there they have 12 year old girls on TV talking about how Russia tried to kill and rape her.

But, since the initial reports were consistent with the girl and the mans claims, im going to assume that the giant empire(us) is yet again full of shit.

devknob said:

Johnnyorganic.

I never read pravda. Im going off the eyewitness accounts. Just cause im not going to scour the web for talking points to argue with you, doesnt mean I lost or im wrong as you insinuated on my profile.

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I did nothing to your profile. I sent you negative rep and I put my name on it, as a man does. No drive-bys from JohnnyOrganic.

The first to hurl the insults admits they are out of points. That is the jist of what I wrote.

My friends, I'm from Russia. This post special for you and rest moral freaks like you. Sorry for my English
You and people like you live in the ZOO, which we call the USA, some people already know that, I'm talking about all this bullshit which your government pushing into your mouth and your ears. Government keep sheeps like you in the farm USA. Do you travel much in the world????? No??!! You will be surprised if you hear all feedbacks special from Europe about your country and government. Simple words they hate your nation ( don't ask me, ask your government).
About all this deal in Georgia. They kill 1648 our citizens in 15 hours in Chinvali, then they call troops to support them, but they ( Georgians) already kill 10 peacekeepers. This MF even kill women and children, old people. People who get shot but can not move they cut they throats, in houses where people hiding in cellars (old people, women, children) they don’t waist the time with them, they drop grenade inside. That your DEMOCRACY, your government gave them green light to start all this, they was sure we stay away, BUT plans went wrong, now they make brainwash all people in the world and say Russia is the aggressor.
We saw how NATO sorted out the same problem in Serbia, how they bombed Belgrade with innocent people, and gave KOSOVO status , in my opinion, people’s nation from Kosovo even worse than yours!
So what we have on this moment (you have) you have to work, pay your taxes, and shut the FK up, that is your life. But you call this democracy. Ok, we can accept that.
But do NOT teach us how to live, and keep you opinion for yourself. In this case rest of the world will be happy.
Last beat, in your country not all people sheep like you, and they can see what is going on around them, and try to make changes.
[FONT=&quot]P.S: I won’t be surprised if soon your country find out that Iran have super secret nano-mano nuclear technology, and of course you have to attack them to save the world. In that case , next president of US will be McCain 100%, Obama THAT JUST THE COVER, you all must fill you have choice between 2 candidates. In real, you DON’T HAVE CHOICE. Pentagon already made choice. So as I say already, you have to work, pay taxes and sit quiet. They need more money for new toys.[/FONT]