Got some new strains. Need help... Is it stable or a hybrid?

Hey guys

This is sort of a hybrid question (pun intended haha); its a little breeding lesson followed by a seeds question

(question preview: I need to find out if the seeds I have are considered stable, or if they are hybrids)

stay with me while I go through this, but, what im asking should make sense in the end

My criteria for Hybrid (an F1) is as follows:
Suppose you have 2 stable strains, A and B;
you cross A and B to create a first Filial Generation (F1), named C;
if you then breed C cross C, you get a second Filial Generation (F2)
and you can continue this way creating sequential Filial Generations (F3, F4, ...).

with selective breeding, subsequent generations have the trait you bred for, and more seeds/plants are liikely to exhibit this trait the highter the F#

if you cross a stable strain with its the original parent (known as back crossing), the backcross will be dominated by the traits of the parent plant.
using this example
AxB yields C;
CxC yields C(F1);
C(F1)xC(F1) yields C(F2);
C(F2)xC(F2) yields C(F3), and suppose by F3 the seeds are homogenous and the majority of brothers and sisters are similar
THEN => C(F3)xA yields A(bx); where A(bx) is a Back Cross of A, meaning most of the seeds will express the charecteristics of its parent, A

This is important because you can not create a back cross (A(bx)) until the strain (C) is stable. (most of the seeds express the same traits)

NOW, I consider C a Hybrid until you can do CxC and have homogenous seeds. And you can not have homogenous seed until you go though a couple Filial Generations

In the first Filial Generation there will be a good amount of variation; for each seed, either have A or B will express dominant traits.
The best thing about hybrids is they expess "Hybrid Vigor", meaning that usually the best traits from A and B will dominate creating a product better than A or B!
But! The Sencond Fillial Generatin (F2) has a LOT of genetic variation, where dormant traits become expressed and you have to be very selective about which plant you breed from here on
In subsequent generations, with selective breeding, you should start to get a more homogenous batch. Most plants will express the same traits (rthe traits that were bred for!)

What this means is:
Hybrid (F1) seeds will be very good, and have a lot of genetic variation
The second generation (F2) will have a lot of duds and you will have to go through a lot more seeds to find a keeper
Using selective breeding, and large gene pools, subsequent generations will lead to a homogenous batch

SOOOOOOO
Basically, a Hybrid will be awesome quality, but will have A LOT of phenotypes; its traits will either lean towards its mother or father
ANDDDD
A stabilized strain will have homogenous seeds, and if you cross it with one of its parents (backcross it) you will get seeds where the parents traits dominate

after all this rambling on about filial generations and dominant traits,
FINALLY MY QUESTION
Of the seeds I have, Which are stabilized strains, and which are hybrids?!

I have DJ Short's Blueberry, Humboldt Seed Organization Train Wreck, HSO ChemDawg, HSO Blue Dream, Dutch Passion Euphoria.
Also, I just aquied some Cali Connection SFV OG and Girl Scout Cookies, BOG Seeds Sour BubbleGum, and SubCool/TGA Jack The Ripper.

Which ones are considered stable and most likely good Breeding Material (P1s).
And which ones are considered a Hybrid of the F1 type?


Now I know the SFV OG and Sour Bubblegum are stabilized and suitable P1s. (the advertise the OG as a backcross and the Bg as the original Bubblegum)
I thought that the Blueberry would be stable but out of 10 seeds I think i got 10 phenotypes! lol
So I was wondering if anyone knows better than me, the heritage of these strains

Again, Im not asking what was crossed to make these strains, thats easy to find out.
rather I want to know ifd these guys are parents, filial, or backcrosses




I ask because I am looking to do some breeding and you need to know where youve been to figure out where your going <];r)

Thanks friends!
-Matt

If you want to ask a question, please just ask it; no need to write a book first!

you can not create a back cross (A(bx)) until the strain (C) is stable

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This is simply not true. You can do a back cross at ANY point, with F1, F2, F3. Many breeders actually WILL do this, though when/why they will is beyond the scope of this response.

Basically, a Hybrid will be awesome quality, but will have A LOT of phenotypes; its traits will either lean towards its mother or father

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Again, not necessarily true.

Crossing two plants doesn't necessarily mean you end up with the "best of both worlds". In some cases you end up with the WORST traits of both parents. You can't just assume that F1 hybrids will be better than either parent, let alone both. In other words, a hybrid is not necessarily "awesome". It might be. . .it might not. Note that F1 hybrids derived from two different inbred parents should be both genetically and phenotypically homogeneous.

Subsequent generations (F2, F3), will be variable as you say, expressing varying traits derived from each parent in different proportions.

A stabilized strain will have homogenous seeds, and if you cross it with one of its parents (backcross it) you will get seeds where the parents traits dominate

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Well in fact, by definition a stabilized (ie inbred) strain will be similar to its parents. You don't have to do ANY crossing for it to be similar to its parents (ie the parents traits dominate)!

So from a breeding standpoint, there is no real reason to do this backcross. But sure, if you did it anyway the offspring would be similar to the parent (and grandparent/parent).

Of the seeds I have, Which are stabilized strains, and which are hybrids?!

I have DJ Short's Blueberry, Humboldt Seed Organization Train Wreck, HSO ChemDawg, HSO Blue Dream, Dutch Passion Euphoria.
Also, I just aquied some Cali Connection SFV OG and Girl Scout Cookies, BOG seeds Sour BubbleGum, and SubCool/TGA Jack The Ripper.

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Again you could have just asked this without the first bit.

The answer is, I can say for sure that GSC, Blue Dream, and SC JTR are NOT inbred (ie "stable") lines. Doesn't necessarily make them bad, just that you may see some pheno variation.

I strongly doubt that the HSO Chemdawg is stable; don't know if anyone has come up with a good inbred version of this yet.

I don't know where Sour Bubblegum is in the breeding chain right now, but I think that one is like an F4. While its not truly "inbred" yet, its probably mostly stable.

I simply have no idea about Dutch Passion's Euphoria one way or the other.

Of the strains you list, DJ Short Blueberry is *supposed* to be inbred, though in practice, I've heard various conflicting stories about it throwing off various phenos, so in reality it may not be. This one really may be a question of when you got the ceeds.

Cali Connection is calling its SFV-OG an inbred line, though I don't think it truly has been stabilized over seven generations, and there may be a little pheno variation there. Trainwreck probably actually IS stable, since that one has been grown outdoors for a long time as a local strain.

Not incidentally, there is no reason why you CAN'T start with unstable lines to do your breeding.

In fact, that's probably the STANDARD right now. . .most "breeders" are starting with unstable "clone only" lines (like SFV OG) to generate their "new lines" (which are mostly unstable or semi-stable polyhybrids derived from unstable parents). Whether this is "good" or "bad" is again, beyond the scope of this post, but the reality is that many of the "hot" breeders are putting out mostly unstable stuff.

The question is really what are you trying to accomplish?

Starting with stable lines certainly simplifies breeding, since the traits in each parent will be visible, and you know that they are genetically homozygous (and therefore probably isolatable for breeding purposes).

But assuming you're willing to put in the work and do actual selection, you can still isolate traits from hybrid plants and create new lines. . .its just may be more difficult to isolate them, and you may have difficulty actually stabilizing certain traits that require genetic heterozygosity.

sorry about the long post,
im new to this and i was just trying to figure out things for myself
(guess i didnt have to post it... but then who would correct me? lol)

thanks for taking the time to respond.
i appreciate the info/corrections!


I was looking for this information because I want to use stable genetics to create my hybrids
From what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), if you were to use hybrids as parents, you would end up with greater genetic variation and more of a chance of getting worthless plants. On the other hand, if you start with stable genetics, the offspring should have less genetic variation and hold a greater resemblance to its parents
Again this is just what I understand, please correct me because this assumption is the basis of my breeding program


I want to make good quality hybrid seeds, and I thought to do this you need to start with stable genetics
I will not have a very big gene pool to choose from (seeds are expensive) so I thought it might be kind of tough to use a hybrid as a parent
but i guess this will be for me to figure out lol
Ill try a little of everything and Ill report back in a year once i have some progress

KronicUse said:

sorry about the long post,
I was looking for this information because I want to use stable genetics to create my hybrids
From what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), if you were to use hybrids as parents, you would end up with greater genetic variation and more of a chance of getting worthless plants.

On the other hand, if you start with stable genetics, the offspring should have less genetic variation and hold a greater resemblance to its parents
Again this is just what I understand, please correct me because this assumption is the basis of my breeding program

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Well, let's take a step back.

What is the point of breeding?

The point, presumably, is to take desirable traits from multiple different lines, isolate the traits genetically, then combine them into a new line that expresses all the specific traits you are interested in. In some cases, you may get desirable new traits not seen in the parent lines, but usually when this happens its more of a "lucky accident" than a deliberate breeding choice.

Anyway, the traits in question could be growth characteristics, yield, potency, scent/flavor, color, flowering time, "high" quality (ie cannabinoid subtype ratios), or others.

Again, I don't want to write pages and pages on genetics here, but it is certainly possible to isolate desirable traits from unstable/hybrid strains, then use them to create new stable lines. In fact, if you think about it, if you cross two inbred plants into an F1, then cross two of the F1s into an F2, you've just created an unstable hybrid. You're still going to use it to breed further until the line is stable, right? So at some point along your breeding "ladder" you're necessarily working with unstable hybrids. . .you just have good knowledge of where their genetics came from.

The disadvantage of starting with hybrids is that you don't know which genes they may be heterozygous for, and that may mean recessive traits not seen in the parents pop out of "nowhere" in unexpected ways. It probably means more work on the selection end to end up with all the traits you like in one plant. Also, some of the interesting traits in hybrid parents may require genetic heterozygosity, which may make them difficult or impossible to stabilize.

I want to make good quality hybrid seeds, and I thought to do this you need to start with stable genetics

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Any hybrid, or a specific one? Is the goal here to just make some good seeds for future personal use, or to actually develop a novel strain?

If your goal is to create new stable inbred lines, that typically takes seven generations of crosses, necessarily implying a 2-3 year project. You also have to be able to grow at the very least dozens of plants at a time to do real selection. This is not really work for a home grower.

I'd also say, that there is no point in reinventing the wheel. There are a gazillion breeders out there, and a gazillion commercially available crosses. If you're looking for something specific, chances are pretty good that someone else has already created it, and its going to be a LOT easier to just buy ceeds of that, rather than try and recreate the same thing yourself.

If all you want to do is create some good F1 hybrid ceeds for future personal grows, that's trivial. Find your two favorite inbred lines, cross them, then the ceeds will be stable F1s. This isn't really "breeding", its more like "seed-making", but if each of the parents are high quality, there is a pretty good chance the offspring will be too. Assuming you're satisfied with the F1 ceeds you've made, you can stop your project right there. If you cross these F1 hybrids, you'll end up with a variety of phenos, and that's probably not what you want.

Note that you can do this EXACT SAME THING with ANY two plants, even hybrids. The big difference is that depending on how genetically variable the parent plants are, you may see a few or a great many different phenotypes in the offspring. Again, this isn't necessarily bad. If one of the parents is a true F1 and the other an inbred line, the amount of different phenos you get is probably going to be fairly limited. If both parents are really good, chances are that you'll see some good plants in the offspring, even if they are all phenotypically different; you may even see individual phenos that are BETTER than either parent. But as you say, you'll also probably see phenos WORSE that either parent, so that's probably not what you're after.

man you got some good info locked up in your head lol
i can tell you have been doing this for a while
thanks for explaning to me, i know i was really vague. i didnt really know what i wanted to know haha
but you read my mind anyway

im going to try and ony cross stable genes and maybe continue to inbreed the plants that are hybrid
I only have a small grow area (12x20) at the moment so i cant devote too much are for experimenting. but i do have like 400sqft outside thats suitable for growops
and with the small room i need to stick with methods where I get a good chance of good traits (yield, smell, taste, poteny, etc)
Seems like the best way to know what your getting is like you say, stick to stable lines
thanks jogro, saves me a lot of time and grow space
check out another thread i started, about the same thing in the advanced section
HERE

"Lucky Accident" > I believe that sums up the majority of breeding, especially in this decade.
I have to give it to Canned Abyss for his work bringing potency/flavor/color to Cannabis Ruderalis.
I bet he has created the most stable auto.

I think they are @ F9? Isn't F9 considered Inbred/Stabilized?

You are asking the wrong question. The simple fact that most F1 crosses between known strains have a high degree of variability shows that their parents are not stable and do not breed true. Otherwise the F1 hybrids would be very similar to each other, and would demonstrate hybrid vigor over the parents. There is really no substitute for running screening trials from seed, backcrossing the chosen, rinse and repeat, until you get a stable open pollinated population.

If you want stable strains to work with you will have to develop your own, and hopefully if your good at it along the way you can release improved generations of a strain.

Try following some of the reputable breeders that document their methods and strains, and you will see what I mean.

kindnug said:

I think they are @ F9? Isn't F9 considered Inbred/Stabilized?

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They could be, but its not just number of generations, its also a matter of isolating the traits\genes through selection until the gene pairs are homogeneous.

This is an extremely fascinating discussion, fellas.

kindnug said:

"Lucky Accident" > I believe that sums up the majority of breeding, especially in this decade.

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I think EVERY breeder who has done a lot of work and is honest will tell you that the "lucky accident" plays a significant role in breeding. There is still lots of good breeding going on, its just that the nature of the business has changed.

Back in the day, the ceed market was entirely a black market and breeders did everything they could to stay off the radar screen.

Nowadays we have 24-7 global internet access and lots of legal cannabis zones, so there is a not only a lot more money involved in the ceed game, but also a lot more opportunity for self-promotion. So its a case where marketing drives a lot of the commercial market now, not actual genetic quality.

I have to give it to Canned Abyss for his work bringing potency/flavor/color to Cannabis Ruderalis.
I bet he has created the most stable auto.

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I fully agree that the guy deserves a lot of credit for creating a strong new autoflower line and doing it CORRECTLY, basically by starting with a good line crossing with ruderalis, then doing repeated backcrosses and selection to maintain the autoflower trait, while giving up EVERY other ruderalis gene.

But just to be clear, there are plenty of stable autos out there, like all the Lowryders, etc. He's not the only one who has done this.

kindnug said:

I think they are @ F9? Isn't F9 considered Inbred/Stabilized?

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What Purple Budz said.

It isn't just taking a line out nine generations that makes it stable, its also the selection along the way.

Also, just because something is "stable" (eg industrial hemp) doesn't necessarily mean its "good". Stability is just one of many factors to consider when choosing a strain. As an example, virtually all of the famous "clone only" strains that everyone want to grow and use for breeding are unstable.

its crazy how involved breeding can get.
it takes some serious knowledge to be a successful breeder, although you could easily get a "lucky accident" (1 in a thousand tries lol)

So anyways, why I started this post is because I wanted to be able to take the genetics I have, and create something of my own
and to do this, I figured it would be best to start with an inbred strain and just create an F1 hybrid and call it something stupid I came up with while well medicated

but,
After much contemplation, I think what I will try is taking inbred genetics and creating an F1 hybrid, and then Back-cross it back to the parent; it seems that in this way I would have the best chance of getting a lot of ceeds I will be able to use in future grows, since I want ceeds that do not have a ton of variation


hopefully, I will one day have a large enough grow to develop my own strain; but as it goes, I think a simple back-cross is what I am after

thanks guys for all the input, it has changed the way I think about breeding
much respect

KronicUse said:

After much contemplation, I think what I will try is taking inbred genetics and creating an F1 hybrid, and then Back-cross it back to the parent; it seems that in this way I would have the best chance of getting a lot of ceeds I will be able to use in future grows, since I want ceeds that do not have a ton of variation

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If you want to create ceeds with no variation then either cross an inbred line to itself (to create lots of ceeds of the same thing), or cross two different inbred lines to create a stable F1 which will share traits from both parents.

If you backcross an F1 to one of its parents (ie [MxF]x[F] ) , you'll end up with a bunch of F-dominant phenos with a reduced and somewhat variable number of M traits. If that's what you want, its OK to do this and you may well find some interesting plants this way, but again, this isn't really "breeding" since you haven't done any selection or stablized a line.

KronicUse said:

So anyways, why I started this post is because I wanted to be able to take the genetics I have, and create something of my own
and to do this, I figured it would be best to start with an inbred strain and just create an F1 hybrid and call it something stupid I came up with while well medicated

but,
After much contemplation, I think what I will try is taking inbred genetics and creating an F1 hybrid, and then Back-cross it back to the parent; it seems that in this way I would have the best chance of getting a lot of ceeds I will be able to use in future grows, since I want ceeds that do not have a ton of variation

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If thats your intention then I suggest that you test trial a number of known strains that possess the traits your looking for and develop a few relatively consistent Open Pollnated lines of your own before you even think of trying to cross anything. Select and isolate populations homozygous for the important traits is the first step.


Your basic assumption that you can easily find true breeding inbred strains of Cannabis is false. Because of the strong sexual nature of Cannbis, and the ease to cross chosen sets of parents Cannabis maintains high genetic diversity in its populatuion. They are so easily hybridized (Just stick any one male in a room with a bunch of females) subsequent populations are diverse.

KronicUse said:

hopefully, I will one day have a large enough grow to develop my own strain; but as it goes, I think a simple back-cross is what I am after

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Creating "your own strain" is easy; the trick is creating something GOOD that doesn't already exist. With hundreds of commercial strains available for sale (and the number increasing all the time), this is no easy feat.

What I want to know is, what kind of "strain" are you looking to "create"?

What are you looking for in a strain that you think isn't already out there?

hmmm

that's deep! lol

Ive never really considered those questions. I figured it would be one of those, "ah-ha" moments where you see the plant and you know
But if I was to choose, from a patient's view, my "strain" would have pronounced pain-relieving and analgesic effects; i.e. one-hitter quitter that when you feel overwhelmed, you can take a vape hit and know everything will be alright :r)
From a growing stand point, it would be very stable (there would be very little phenotype variation, so you know what to expect every batch), have moderate yields, and maybe have a blue-berry hue (people like purple for some reason)
**Ya I know it is probally already out there, but its just a matter of finding it, just as it would be through breeding

i know I will have my own style of growing, that certain strain would respond better to. and I'm sure if it is me picking the best of the batch and continuing with those, rather than spending a bunch of money ordering ceeds and growing them out to find what i'm looking for

in essence it seems like the same amunt of work, you would have to grow out a lot of seeds and find what you like and what responds best to your growing technique

sooooooo, I thought why not same some money and start my own "breeding" program, but I guess at my level of knowledge it is just pollen chucking

I would like to have a nice supply of ceeds, opposed to maintaining a mother plant and making clones
and buying seeds in bulk would not be good business practice


so what it sounds like is I can accomplish this by doing that ((MxF)xF) backcross, and perhaps I may get lucky and find that one-in-a-thousand phenotype (but then I'd have to clone the shit outta it... lol), but i would be getting a lot of ceeds with little variation in traits right?


Any suggestions on what strains for a starting place?

KronicUse said:

hmmm
Ive never really considered those questions.

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Apparently many growers are infatuated with the idea of becoming a "breeder", but in fact, very few actually contribute anything meaningful this way.
Most of them end up either making a "new" line that isn't really unique or interesting, or just recreating a line that has already been done before (and usually better).

While breeding/pollen-chucking can be fun or recreational, in my opinion, if you want to be somewhat serious about it, you need to know what you're after before you start, and ideally it will be something that either doesn't exist already or at least is exceptionally hard to find.

I figured it would be one of those, "ah-ha" moments where you see the plant and you know

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Well, bluntly, that's pretty unlikely. The "best" strains typically don't look any different than any number of similar mediocre ones.
Unless you're specifically breeding for appearance (and some people actually do that), its probably not all that important.
You may not find that "magic" plant based on how it looks.

But if I was to choose, from a patient's view, my "strain" would have pronounced pain-relieving and analgesic effects; i.e. one-hitter quitter that when you feel overwhelmed, you can take a vape hit and know everything will be alright :r) From a growing stand point, it would be very stable (there would be very little phenotype variation, so you know what to expect every batch), have moderate yields, and maybe have a blue-berry hue (people like purple for some reason)

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So you want a strong purple inbred indica? Don't think you'd have a hard time finding something like that.

**Ya I know it is probally already out there, but its just a matter of finding it, just as it would be through breeding

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Well, this is my point.

To generate several dozen F2 offspring, do selection, and repeat 4-5x times to stabilize the line is a two or more likely three year project. A three year project involving lots of work, and many many plants if you want the result to be any good. There are space issues, harvest issues, legal issues, etc.

Alternatively, you can do your "selection" off of a good seed bank website in a few hours (not years), pay $50-150, and end up with the same result shipped directly to your door in a week, thereby saving yourself 2-3 years calendar time, hundreds of hours of labor, and who knows how much money in lights, nutes, soil, etc. Well worth it, in my opinion, unless you're trying to create something you CANNOT buy.

i know I will have my own style of growing, that certain strain would respond better to.

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I think your premise here is exactly backwards.

If you're a good grower, you can grow anything., The grower should adapt to meet the needs of the plant, not the other way around!

Instead of trying to rebreed and shoehorn some genetics into your growing style, find the genetics you like, then learn how to optimize them. That's a lot easier, and not only will you get better results with THAT strain, the skills you learn as a grower will let you optimize ANY strain later.

I'd also add here (in case it isn't obvious) that like learning how to stand before you can walk or run, you have be at least a good grower before you can be a successful breeder.

in essence it seems like the same amunt of work, you would have to grow out a lot of seeds and find what you like and what responds best to your growing technique

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Well, you're always going to have to try different things to determine what you like. There is no way around it.

But if you're going to start from commercial ceeds, you're done once you find a good "fit". If you're trying to breed your own line, you've really only STARTED once you've figured out what traits you want to instill in your new line.

Anyway you slice it, its a lot more work to cross, select, and repeat over multiple generations than just to germinate ceeds and do selection once.

sooooooo, I thought why not same some money and start my own "breeding" program, but I guess at my level of knowledge it is just pollen chucking

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LOL.

I'm not going to name names, but there is a whole cottage industry of "breeders" who are basically just "crossers". They find a few "elite" clones or good ceeds, cross them or self-pollinate them, hype the crap out of these mutts, then sell them at inflated prices to growers who don't know any better. Sure, you can make ceeds this way, and you might even make money. . .but you're probably not going to actually create many new genetics.

I would like to have a nice supply of ceeds, opposed to maintaining a mother plant and making clones
and buying seeds in bulk would not be good business practice

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All you have to do is open pollinate two plants and you'll have hundreds or thousands of ceeds, enough to last any reasonable individual grower for at least several years. There is no trick to that.

As to buying in bulk, ever heard of "economy of scale"? The more you buy (of anything) the cheaper the per-unit cost.

While you're not going to do it through a commercial ceedbank, its certainly possible to buy cannabis seeds by the KILO if you develop the correct connection to do so.

so what it sounds like is I can accomplish this by doing that ((MxF)xF) backcross, and perhaps I may get lucky and find that one-in-a-thousand phenotype (but then I'd have to clone the shit outta it... lol), but i would be getting a lot of ceeds with little variation in traits right?

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Again, don't really "get" this. If you want a good shot at finding a 1 in 1000 pheno you have to

a. Do crosses that can potentially GENERATE 1000 different phenos (the above one probably wont), and
b. Actually grow 1000 plants and do the selection.

Don't think you're going to do this.

Instead, if you want a potent, stable, medical, purple plant, just find one you like in ceed form (ie Granddaddy purple or some other one like that).
Grow out a male and female next to each other, let them do their thing and in 3-4 months you'll have enough ceeds to last until 2023.