rohis
Well-Known Member
That is one of the most informative things I've read on a forum in a long time. My knowledge of enzymes is growing every day. Cheers
grow more fertilizer ???
- Thread starter velrui
- Start date
That is one of the most informative things I've read on a forum in a long time. My knowledge of enzymes is growing every day. Cheers
Hermitian
Active Member
I've been testing this product for the past year on various crops. It is basically a hormone product for situations where regular nutrient feeding is intractable (e.g. 3rd world farming).
Grow More Liquid Stimulant 10-5-5, 1-quart round bottle.
If you are an experienced grower or an existing customer please contact me for a free sample.
Grow More Liquid Stimulant 10-5-5, 1-quart round bottle.
If you are an experienced grower or an existing customer please contact me for a free sample.
Terk1974
Active Member
I'm very interested in trying a whole line from seedling to flower, I use pro mix hp and finish in ten gallon pots. I'm used to black and white directions on what to use and must have gotten spoiled from my days working with Dow chemical, so I obviously feel a bit out of place looking at your feeding schedule. Currently using advanced nutrients Sensi line at half strength at that to avoid burn, but directions are very simple. Feel free to message me with any advice on this, I'm very interested in trying this.
What do you find confusing about the feeding schedule (<<link). It seems straightforward to me.
I'm using Sea Grow AP and F&B. I mix them together in flower to get an NPK ratio close to 1-2-2. I include Hawaiian Bloom (cut F&B) if I want to raise P. (I use GH ArmorSi in veg to increase K). I use Botanicare Liquid Karma throughout the grow. I assume that's similar to Grow More Jump Start. I use this spreadsheet (<<link) to play with the ingredients and NPK ratios.
These are the NPK ratios for the "small scale active soil" schedule:
-------------------------------------- RATIOS
------------------------------- N-P-K --------- K-Ca-Mg ----- PPM
Seed to 2 weeks before bud 1.39-1.00-1.00 - 13.47-1.00-5.26 - 401
Prebloom ----------------- 1.19-1.36-1.00 - 16.57-1.00-5.26 - 497
2 weeks Bloom ------------ 1.00-2.75-2.75 - 23.61-1.00-4.96 - 510
Bloom through harvest ---- 1.00-3.94-2.85 - 29.38-1.00-4.96 - 701
I've been going a little lower on the PK in bloom. Three weeks ago I harvested 155g from an autoflower grown under 123w of LED light.
kingzt
Well-Known Member
Hey everyone, just looking for some advice on the mendicino avalanche. On the bottle it says feed with 2-4 consecutive watering starting at week 3 I believe. My next watering will be the 4th time I use it. Should I stop after that or can I keep using it. I am only on fifth week and I was told to use it until the 7th week but just wanted to make sure I wasn't over doing it. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Hermitian
Active Member
Q1: is there any difference between Bio-Cozyme and Hygrozyme.
A: Grow More has 3 versions of Bio-Cozyme, only 1 of which you will see in a "hydroponic" store. Grow More introduced the product decades ago for field and orchard crops (product #2000, sold in cases of 2 x 2.5 gallon jugs). It will clog micro-tubing used in hydroponic and drip applications. Grow More also produces a powder version of this (product #6078, sold by the pallet or truck load). It is also not appropriate for micro-irrigation. Over a decade ago Grow More introduced a version for hydroponic and greenhouse applications that use micro-tubing (product #'s 6044 (QT) and 6045 (GAL)). For Grow More, it is a 3rd generation hormone product. The Hygrozyme product is an attempted knock-off.
Q2: why is it beneficial to use both products?
A: The Bio-Cozyme and Avalanche (a 4th generation product) are part of a 13-product growing regime designed by Grow More for hydroponic shops. You can get the chart from your hydro shop.
Professional growers don't follow the "hydroponic boutique shop" feeding schedule. Grow More has a fifth generation hormone product -- the redesigned "Jump Start" which can be used in lieu of the Bio-Cozyme+Avalanche combination. This is typically used with a standard feeding schedule for budding plants. In trials done by major dispensaries, the latter approach has better results and a much lower cost.
A: Grow More has 3 versions of Bio-Cozyme, only 1 of which you will see in a "hydroponic" store. Grow More introduced the product decades ago for field and orchard crops (product #2000, sold in cases of 2 x 2.5 gallon jugs). It will clog micro-tubing used in hydroponic and drip applications. Grow More also produces a powder version of this (product #6078, sold by the pallet or truck load). It is also not appropriate for micro-irrigation. Over a decade ago Grow More introduced a version for hydroponic and greenhouse applications that use micro-tubing (product #'s 6044 (QT) and 6045 (GAL)). For Grow More, it is a 3rd generation hormone product. The Hygrozyme product is an attempted knock-off.
Q2: why is it beneficial to use both products?
A: The Bio-Cozyme and Avalanche (a 4th generation product) are part of a 13-product growing regime designed by Grow More for hydroponic shops. You can get the chart from your hydro shop.
Professional growers don't follow the "hydroponic boutique shop" feeding schedule. Grow More has a fifth generation hormone product -- the redesigned "Jump Start" which can be used in lieu of the Bio-Cozyme+Avalanche combination. This is typically used with a standard feeding schedule for budding plants. In trials done by major dispensaries, the latter approach has better results and a much lower cost.
It's strange how GrowMore is jumping on the "boutique lineup" bandwagon. I'm using Sea Grow and love it. But, GrowMore doesn't seem like a consumer-facing company. Their web site is pretty high-level, more representative of the products available in pallets. Seems odd that they pursue the "boutique" angle which is extreme consumerism.
I like how you as a reseller (plantsthatproduce) aren't jumping on all that. But, it's confusing because looking at the GrowMore website a person can't find info about these cannabis-specific (dubious?) products. The only place to find info is on reseller sites.
Was that Q/A from GM's site or yours?
Hermitian
Active Member
AZ,
The Q&A was a response to kingzt's post immediately above.
Grow More has been on the boutique line-up for 8 years now. It is what sells to the novice consumer. Somehow new growers of cannabis (and horticulture in general) have the idea that using a lot of decorated bottles to push a variety of buttons in the plant is the best method. This is far from the truth - it typically results in jerking the plant into different modes and lowering the overall potential harvest.
Grow More's consumer line has been around for decades, the most successful of these products is their line of orchid foods. Overall, Grow More has 63 different product formulas for the consumer home gardener market (excluding the hydroponic line). The hydroponic line has 36 product formulas -- there is some overlap between the consumer "home gardener" and "hydroponic" product lines and a few differences in packaging. Both of these are in stark contrast to the approximately 900 product formulas produced for agriculture, within which there are about 10 product lines. Many of those formulas are "hidden" in the sense that they are produced for a single farm with specific needs.
It's interesting you mention their website. The lack of detail is a reflection of the nature of commercial agriculture. The vast majority of farm buyers get their product information from trade shows and phone calls. Further, they are highly educated (e.g., M.S. from an ag school such as UC Davis) and know what approach to take. Their interest is primarily in price and availability. They start placing their orders in the late fall. In turn, the factory then begins filling and shipping these orders at the rate of 2-3 truckloads or overseas shipping containers (20 pallets each) per day. This goes on until the late spring and then slows down a bit through the summer.
The Q&A was a response to kingzt's post immediately above.
Grow More has been on the boutique line-up for 8 years now. It is what sells to the novice consumer. Somehow new growers of cannabis (and horticulture in general) have the idea that using a lot of decorated bottles to push a variety of buttons in the plant is the best method. This is far from the truth - it typically results in jerking the plant into different modes and lowering the overall potential harvest.
Grow More's consumer line has been around for decades, the most successful of these products is their line of orchid foods. Overall, Grow More has 63 different product formulas for the consumer home gardener market (excluding the hydroponic line). The hydroponic line has 36 product formulas -- there is some overlap between the consumer "home gardener" and "hydroponic" product lines and a few differences in packaging. Both of these are in stark contrast to the approximately 900 product formulas produced for agriculture, within which there are about 10 product lines. Many of those formulas are "hidden" in the sense that they are produced for a single farm with specific needs.
It's interesting you mention their website. The lack of detail is a reflection of the nature of commercial agriculture. The vast majority of farm buyers get their product information from trade shows and phone calls. Further, they are highly educated (e.g., M.S. from an ag school such as UC Davis) and know what approach to take. Their interest is primarily in price and availability. They start placing their orders in the late fall. In turn, the factory then begins filling and shipping these orders at the rate of 2-3 truckloads or overseas shipping containers (20 pallets each) per day. This goes on until the late spring and then slows down a bit through the summer.
You're very well written to produce that on the fly. I thought it was copy/pasted from an official FAQ.
You should consider putting that information (and info from your response to me) in your "Guides" section. Some of it would fit in the general "Products" guide. Some would fit in the cannabis-specific guide.
GrowMore's lack of a consumer-oriented web site makes it difficult to refer growers, especially newbies, to their products. I consider GM to be comparable to JR Peter's/Jack's. But, the latter's website gives a typical consumer a warmer feeling. To compound the sense of uncertainty is GM's appeal to the exclusively consumer-oriented "fantasy football" mindset with a "lineup" of boutique bottles. The only place information can be found for that is on monstergardens, et. al. where they happily sell anything you want without explaining the whats and whys.
What you're really doing is adding value, cutting through the confusion which results from a consumer mindset demanding a medicine-chest of products (and GM's "when in Rome..." participation). But, nobody would know that. I think the impression they'd get is that you're not fully stocked (and off to monstergardens they go).
What you wrote in the last couple posts are an excellent basis for something like an FAQ. IMO, there's something missing between GM's website and retailer sites, compounded by a discrepancy between your retail site and the others (yours explains the low-key nature of GM's website, the other retail sites add to the perplexity.). I strongly suggest putting your assessment of the products you don't carry in an FAQ or something. Maybe even list them as "out of stock" and specify the reasoning for each. Link to an FAQ or a deeper dive into GM's core business. Not sure how to organize it so it could be seen quickly as people are perplexed by the absence of "the lineup" they see elsewhere. I think it would be really helpful if they understood why you feel some products aren't necessary (why you've settled on the few you sell).
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I highly encourage you to use the spreadsheet to analyze your current feeding program's NPK ratio comes out, and how adding Hawaiian B&B would change that. I wouldn't just toss HB&B in just because people like it. It's just the same stuff in other high PK products. (Nothing special except a fair price, no hype.). It's all about the NPK ratio you arrive at (and the ppms, i.e., whether you need to reduce your base nutes when adding it).
If you're going to use Sea Grow All-Purpose and Flower&Bloom, I can tell you how I'm using it. plantsthatproduce.com has a schedule in it's "guides" section. I'm doing pretty close to that. I'm suspicious of the high PK of that schedule in flower. I'm doing 1-3-2 and feel I need more N. Their schedule comes out to closer to 1-4-3 starting at 3 weeks into flower. Based upon my 1-3-2 starting at 3 weeks into flower, I think 1-4-3 would be too high.
Anyway, you get the idea. You can do it however you want. You can decode plantsthatproduce's schedule into the resulting NPK and PPM. We can compare that to what I'm doing. You can come up with your own NPK ratios.
What I like about Grow More Sea Grow is that it contains organic components without being purely organic. It seems like a good balance between the ease of synthetic nutrients and the benefits of organics. The taste/smoke is much better than when I grew in purely synthetic GH Flora 3-part. Myself and friends noticed it. Or course, the price is good too. About $1 per plant for the entire grow.
I'd like to try Jack's Classic sometime. It's about the same price point. I'd just like to see if the taste goes back to like it was when I used synthetic nutrients like Jack's is.
Hermitian
Active Member
AZ, which Jack's Classic formulas are you referring to: http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Jack-s-Classic.html (<<< link)?
Click on the "Classic Quick Guide" tab for details.
I have a lot of respect for that factory.
Click on the "Classic Quick Guide" tab for details.
I have a lot of respect for that factory.
If/when I do, I'd probably use All Purpose and Bloom Booster like I do now, mixing for my own NPK ratios. I'd just like to see (confirm) the taste/smoothness that I noticed when I switched from synthetic GH Flora to Sea Grow.
I'm currently using the GH 3 part (hard water) 6/9 head schedule except I use 1.5 gals of water and don't adjust the nutes. Also add Botanicare calmag 3ml per 1.5 gal with every feed. @ day like 69 in a 12/12 from seed coco/perlite hempy. I wanted to completely cut out the GH 3 part and just switch to 1/2 tsp per 1.5 gal of the Hawaiian Bud or maybe a mixture of Hawaiian Bud and the Bloom. I really just want to keep it simple because I'm a baboon with numbers. I'm also tired of mixing GH nutes and enjoy the simplicity of the grow more stuff.
Pic from few days ago. ~2.5 gal. 360 true watts of led
Pic from few days ago. ~2.5 gal. 360 true watts of led
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I think you'll have a problem with that approach. Sea Grow F&B is NPK ratio 1-6.5-6.5. That's too imbalanced for cannabis. HBB is like a bloom booster at NPK ratio 1-10-3.4. Adding that would make it even more imbalanced.
You said you want simplicity, and that you're not good with numbers. That's what cannabis-specific "lineups" have going for them. You just follow the program, mix this and that bottle (without caring about NPK ratios) and your plant grows well. But, you pay the price for those "lineups." When I used GH Flora 3-part, it was probably $20 per plant. Now that I use Sea Grow, it's about $1 per plant.
If you can get your head around ratios you can save a lot of money.
In flower people use anything in the range of 1-1-1 to 1-3-2. You can get in the middle of that range with a 50/50 mix of Sea Grow All Purpose and F&B. (It depends on whether you use calmag because it contains N.). You could go up to 1-4-3 as a "bloom booster" by using 30/30/40 (30% AP, 30% F&B, 40% Hawaiin).
The spreadsheet makes it easy to figure this stuff out. Take a look at it. You don't have to fool around with math. Just play with the "parts" to get a ratio, play with the "total grams" to get a reasonable ppm (400-600). The spreadsheet tells you how much of each product to use.
I know it sounds complicated. But, if you can get past the initial friction it will be a useful tool. You can dissect any "lineup's" NPK ratio to see what others are doing. When you find ratios you feel work best for you, you won't be locked into whatever product(s) you're using. You could switch to other products and achieve the same ratios very easily by again playing with the "parts" in the spreadsheet.
But, be careful using any non-cannabis fertilizer without thinking about the NPK ratios. That could go badly.
Which schedule do you follow with GH Flora 3-part? If you can tell me exactly how much mix I could tell you exactly the NPK ratio and PPM strength. (You could do this yourself in the spreadsheet.). The only reason I'd like to do that is so you can see how far off you'd be if you fed Sea Grow F&B by itself (let alone, adding HB&B).
If you followed GH Flora's label it would come out like this:
--------------- R A T I O S
-------------- N-P-K ---------- K-Mg-Ca ------- PPM
Seedlings -- 1.21-1.00-1.82 -- 5.48-1.00-2.67 -- 126
Mild veg --- 1.21-1.00-1.82 -- 5.48-1.00-2.67 -- 503
Aggr veg --- 2.07-1.00-2.98 -- 7.98-1.00-3.57 -- 970
Transition - 1.21-1.00-1.82 -- 5.48-1.00-2.67 -- 1005
Flower ----- 1.00-1.28-1.59 -- 4.00-1.00-2.12 -- 1040
People usually use half what the label recommends. So, the PPMs above would be half. But, the NPK ratios are the important part. 2-1-3 in veg? 1-1.3-1.6 in flower. It's not too crazy with PK.
If you can tell me the details about the schedule you follow, I can work out the same info as above. (Or, you can do it using the spreadsheet.).
thanks for taking the time to reply to me Az. I'm using the "h3ad" feed schedule which is 6ml gal micro and 9ml gal bloom. Instead of doing it per 1 gal I do it per 1.5 gal so my feed is a little watered down. So you think if I did 1/2 tsp of HBB and 3ml cal mag it wouldn't be good? I actually own AP/FB/HBB and "jump start" if that helps. My tap water is really crap too lol, like 300 ppm.
That results in an NPK ratio 1-1.42-1.34 and strength of 359ppm. (Assuming you don't use anything else containing nutrients, like calmag does).
If you add that to what you're doing above, that would be a relatively reasonable 1-3.4-1.6 (although the PPMs would be 890. Probably want to reduce HBB to 1/4 tsp and get a milder PK ratio of 1-2.4-1.3 and 655 ppms.
Previously I thought you were saying you wanted to replace your existing fertilizer with F&B (and maybe some HBB). That wouldn't be good.
If you want to stop using GH in flower, you could mix 1/4 tsp AP and 1/4 tsp F&B to get 1-2.2-2.2. Start higher with AP, less F&B. Mid flower have it 1/4 & 1/4. Toward the end, shift it higher F&B.
You're dealing with such small amounts that it's not a precise science unless you weigh it. It's more of a goal to keep in mind. You'll learn to read your plants and give more AP if you see N def.
You could add 1/4 tsp HBB in late flower as a "booster" to give you 1-4-2.5. You'd cut back AP and F&B so you'd only feed 1/8 tsp of each, and add 1/4 tsp HBB. Do that once, then resume your 1/2 tsp of combined AP and F&B for another week or two.