Guidance on medium improvement

myke said:

Pretty common problem to yellow out at week 4 ish,
Bigger pots,cover your soil, it should never dry out on the surface.
Feed more N at week 1-2 of flower.

Just some random solutions.But a bigger pot means a longer lasting battery.

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myke said:

Bigger pots,cover your soil, it should never dry out on the surface.

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VincenzioVonHook said:

i figured the pot size might have been an issue as i've seen most organic growers in 7 gal or bigger. I assumed it was 5 gal, but the base says 11L so my eye was off and its 3. ill be finishing third week of flower in a few days so i've still got 7 weeks to go. A new experience for me. I'll go the 30L pots i've got next round.

Just wasn't sure as super soils around here claim to not need feed for 10-12 weeks and the ingredients were ewc, Neem, alfalfa and kelp for those so I made a few assumptions I could get through an auto without feed.

I'll try a retail super soil next time as a comparison as they claim 12 weeks, but it's like over $50 for 25L.

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VincenzioVonHook said:

First organic grow and I haven't got anywhere near as far into the grow as I expected before yellowing. I've had cheap basic potting mixes last longer tbh so I'm here asking what would be an improvement next round.

I just threw whatever I had at it and let it cook for six weeks. It's a convoluted mix.
20L composted forest material
5L peat moss
3 shovels of loam from the yard (for microbes)
7.5L perlite/vermiculite (50/50)
5L EWC from a local worm farm
2.5L rough charcoal
6tbsp lime (70/30 calcitic/dolo)
6tbsp organic 3:1:4
1/2 cup Neem meal
1/2 cup kelp meal
1/2 cup dr greenthumbs go/grow
Sachet of myco from dr greenthumbs

The issue is rapid yellowing of the bigger fan leaves (bottoms aren't too bad) and some interveinal chlorosis, and I'm only at the beginning of week six from sprout. It has came on very quick.
22 April
View attachment 5124926
26 April
View attachment 5124923

After 1.5 months cooking in the yard in a well aerated compost bin and six weeks in a tent, I'm not seeing any life in the mix at all. When cooking it popped mycelium all over the surface so there is life.

What could I do to get more than six weeks out of a mix, and what can I do to add life in the future for a more active mix?

As a remedy I have top dressed dr greenthumbs bud and bloom 3 days ago when the yellowing started, so we will see how we go. Also have a 8-3-10 organic liquid compost I'll give next watering as a boost, but I'm hesitant to load up anything ATM.

pH is currently fine. 6.6 slurry test, just over six with soil probe (just a cheap $20 one) and environment is optimal so I'm pretty sure my medium is ass.

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GenericEnigma said:

I love your soil mix. It looks like a lot of locally sourced inputs!

Myke is pretty much spot-on. More soil, or top-dress every couple of weeks. You will find that 15 gallons or more (~60 liters) is a common minimum suggestion for organic grow pot size.

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VincenzioVonHook said:

First organic grow and I haven't got anywhere near as far into the grow as I expected before yellowing. I've had cheap basic potting mixes last longer tbh so I'm here asking what would be an improvement next round.

I just threw whatever I had at it and let it cook for six weeks. It's a convoluted mix.
20L composted forest material
5L peat moss
3 shovels of loam from the yard (for microbes)
7.5L perlite/vermiculite (50/50)
5L EWC from a local worm farm
2.5L rough charcoal
6tbsp lime (70/30 calcitic/dolo)
6tbsp organic 3:1:4
1/2 cup Neem meal
1/2 cup kelp meal
1/2 cup dr greenthumbs go/grow
Sachet of myco from dr greenthumbs

The issue is rapid yellowing of the bigger fan leaves (bottoms aren't too bad) and some interveinal chlorosis, and I'm only at the beginning of week six from sprout. It has came on very quick.

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kratos015 said:

If I had to guess, the cooking is why you're experiencing deficiencies so early. None of your ingredients really need to be "cooked" as they're light and available immediately upon coming into contact with water and soil. They're not "hot", and therefore don't need to be "cooked" prior to use.

There's a "too long; didn't read" at the bottom.



"Cooking", or composting, is only necessary for "hot" ingredients. Things like Blood Meal (12-0-0), Bone Meal (4-12-0), Guanos, and so forth are all "hot" and need to be "cooked" so they don't burn the plant's roots. Those ingredients are so potent (because of how the react to sources of Carbon) that they need to be further decomposed ("cooked") for 4-6 weeks to eliminate the risk of burning plants.

Hot ingredients are like a compost pile that is still decomposing; reaching temps of over 150F. Once "cooked" more, it will not be "hot" anymore and is ready for use. The "heat" is coming from the decomposition process; heavy sources of nitrogen combined with sufficient carbon sources will produce heat until they've broken down. Doesn't matter if it's a pile of compost, or the guano/blood meal having a crazy reaction with the peat in your soil.

Light ingredients are like finished compost; not hot and readily available.

Think of it like the baking soda and vinegar volcanoes we'd make as kids. A tiny amount of baking soda (light amendments) is not likely to produce a big reaction. But the full amount of baking soda (heavy amendments) will cause a huge reaction. In fact, what that baking soda + vinegar volcano is doing is very similar to what is going on in a "hot" pile of compost, or when one puts too much guano/blood meal as a top dress. The excess levels of N create a crazy reaction that results in temps of over 150F. This is where the term "cooking" comes into play. These inputs need to be "cooked" and broken down until the temps don't scorch the roots.




Neem, kelp, and all of your organic blends are "light" and ready to go immediately. No need to "cook" a soil with those, all of those ingredients can simply be top dressed. No cooking needed. In fact, the 6 week cooking time is likely what your issue is.



So, what's happening is the bulk of your ingredients are being "cooked" away. The bulk of the ingredients on your list have fully decomposed.

Sounds good, but not with light ingredients. When heavy ingredients are fully decomposed, they remain in the substrate for a while. Light ingredients are just that, light. Light ingredients don't need to be cooked because their NPK values are readily available already immediately upon top dressing and the watering that proceed the top dress. Eventually, your top dress fully decomposes, and you need to apply more.

Heavy ingredients need to be "cooked" before the full NPK is readily available. Heavy ingredients take about 4 weeks to break down to where they are "safe" to apply, then process to provide NPK for another 4-8 weeks after the fact.

Light ingredients have everything readily available immediately. The problem is, many of these light ingredients only take 4-6 weeks to fully breakdown before they need to be reapplied again. So, the bulk of your nutrients have fully decomposed before the soil is even being used.

"But won't the nutrients stay bonded to the substrate, to be stored for later use?"

Not always. Only if the amendment in question is water insoluble.

Water insoluble nutrients will in fact remain in the soil. But water soluble ones? They will flow out with every single watering. Not only that, but there are other factors involved that will result in the leaching of nutrients from your soil as well. If the soil has no roots to absorb the water soluble ingredients, then the ingredients are literally being washed out with every watering.

"In agriculture, leaching is the loss of water-soluble plant nutrients from the soil, due to rain and irrigation."

Look on the backs of your amendments, and take note of what is and is not water soluble. I'll list a few for reference.

Kelp Meal: 1% water insoluble N, 0.1% available (soluble) P, 2% soluble K.

So, by "cooking" the soil for 6 weeks, all you have left is the 1% water insoluble N. The P and K are long gone by the time you plant.

Neem Meal: 6% water insoluble N, 1% soluble P, and 2% soluble K. Same as above, the P and the K from this are long gone by the time you use the soil.

Dr Earth 4-4-4 Gold blend: 4% insoluble N, 4% soluble P, and 4% soluble K. Same as the others.



As you can see, only Nitrogen is water insoluble here. As a result of the 6 weeks of cooking, and watering, you've effectively lost everything that isn't Nitrogen. Not only that, you've likely lost a lot of that insoluble Nitrogen too. Nitrogen is used by more than just plants; it is literal energy responsible for decomposing your other amendments, constantly reacting with sources of carbon in the soil.

So, even if you have Nitrogen that has bonded to the peat moss as a result of its insolubility, that Nitrogen is being "leached" by the soil itself in order to further decompose. Unfortunately, by the time you use the soil, it has little nutrition left. Mostly only N, in fact, which is why you noticed the effects immediately in flower, but not in veg.

Without any roots to absorb the water soluble ingredients, they're literally flushed down the drain instead. This is why watering to runoff is a big no-no in a living soil; because the bulk of your nutrients are leaching out of your soil with all of that runoff.



tl;dr: The 6 week cooking time is resulting in the bulk of your nutrients being leached from the soil. Stop cooking your soil, and incorporate more top dressing into the mix. Every 2-4 weeks on average. Not cooking anymore should solve your issues. In the meantime, you can simply top dress your plants now and proceed as normal up until harvest. In the future, I recommend not cooking the soil.

Hope that helped.

Click to expand...

kratos015 said:

If I had to guess, the cooking is why you're experiencing deficiencies so early. None of your ingredients really need to be "cooked" as they're light and available immediately upon coming into contact with water and soil. They're not "hot", and therefore don't need to be "cooked" prior to use.

There's a "too long; didn't read" at the bottom.



"Cooking", or composting, is only necessary for "hot" ingredients. Things like Blood Meal (12-0-0), Bone Meal (4-12-0), Guanos, and so forth are all "hot" and need to be "cooked" so they don't burn the plant's roots. Those ingredients are so potent (because of how the react to sources of Carbon) that they need to be further decomposed ("cooked") for 4-6 weeks to eliminate the risk of burning plants.

Hot ingredients are like a compost pile that is still decomposing; reaching temps of over 150F. Once "cooked" more, it will not be "hot" anymore and is ready for use. The "heat" is coming from the decomposition process; heavy sources of nitrogen combined with sufficient carbon sources will produce heat until they've broken down. Doesn't matter if it's a pile of compost, or the guano/blood meal having a crazy reaction with the peat in your soil.

Light ingredients are like finished compost; not hot and readily available.

Think of it like the baking soda and vinegar volcanoes we'd make as kids. A tiny amount of baking soda (light amendments) is not likely to produce a big reaction. But the full amount of baking soda (heavy amendments) will cause a huge reaction. In fact, what that baking soda + vinegar volcano is doing is very similar to what is going on in a "hot" pile of compost, or when one puts too much guano/blood meal as a top dress. The excess levels of N create a crazy reaction that results in temps of over 150F. This is where the term "cooking" comes into play. These inputs need to be "cooked" and broken down until the temps don't scorch the roots.




Neem, kelp, and all of your organic blends are "light" and ready to go immediately. No need to "cook" a soil with those, all of those ingredients can simply be top dressed. No cooking needed. In fact, the 6 week cooking time is likely what your issue is.



So, what's happening is the bulk of your ingredients are being "cooked" away. The bulk of the ingredients on your list have fully decomposed.

Sounds good, but not with light ingredients. When heavy ingredients are fully decomposed, they remain in the substrate for a while. Light ingredients are just that, light. Light ingredients don't need to be cooked because their NPK values are readily available already immediately upon top dressing and the watering that proceed the top dress. Eventually, your top dress fully decomposes, and you need to apply more.

Heavy ingredients need to be "cooked" before the full NPK is readily available. Heavy ingredients take about 4 weeks to break down to where they are "safe" to apply, then process to provide NPK for another 4-8 weeks after the fact.

Light ingredients have everything readily available immediately. The problem is, many of these light ingredients only take 4-6 weeks to fully breakdown before they need to be reapplied again. So, the bulk of your nutrients have fully decomposed before the soil is even being used.

"But won't the nutrients stay bonded to the substrate, to be stored for later use?"

Not always. Only if the amendment in question is water insoluble.

Water insoluble nutrients will in fact remain in the soil. But water soluble ones? They will flow out with every single watering. Not only that, but there are other factors involved that will result in the leaching of nutrients from your soil as well. If the soil has no roots to absorb the water soluble ingredients, then the ingredients are literally being washed out with every watering.

"In agriculture, leaching is the loss of water-soluble plant nutrients from the soil, due to rain and irrigation."

Look on the backs of your amendments, and take note of what is and is not water soluble. I'll list a few for reference.

Kelp Meal: 1% water insoluble N, 0.1% available (soluble) P, 2% soluble K.

So, by "cooking" the soil for 6 weeks, all you have left is the 1% water insoluble N. The P and K are long gone by the time you plant.

Neem Meal: 6% water insoluble N, 1% soluble P, and 2% soluble K. Same as above, the P and the K from this are long gone by the time you use the soil.

Dr Earth 4-4-4 Gold blend: 4% insoluble N, 4% soluble P, and 4% soluble K. Same as the others.



As you can see, only Nitrogen is water insoluble here. As a result of the 6 weeks of cooking, and watering, you've effectively lost everything that isn't Nitrogen. Not only that, you've likely lost a lot of that insoluble Nitrogen too. Nitrogen is used by more than just plants; it is literal energy responsible for decomposing your other amendments, constantly reacting with sources of carbon in the soil.

So, even if you have Nitrogen that has bonded to the peat moss as a result of its insolubility, that Nitrogen is being "leached" by the soil itself in order to further decompose. Unfortunately, by the time you use the soil, it has little nutrition left. Mostly only N, in fact, which is why you noticed the effects immediately in flower, but not in veg.

Without any roots to absorb the water soluble ingredients, they're literally flushed down the drain instead. This is why watering to runoff is a big no-no in a living soil; because the bulk of your nutrients are leaching out of your soil with all of that runoff.



tl;dr: The 6 week cooking time is resulting in the bulk of your nutrients being leached from the soil. Stop cooking your soil, and incorporate more top dressing into the mix. Every 2-4 weeks on average. Not cooking anymore should solve your issues. In the meantime, you can simply top dress your plants now and proceed as normal up until harvest. In the future, I recommend not cooking the soil.

Hope that helped.

Click to expand...

Hiphophippo said:

I would say it’s the pot size and lack of top dressing they’re hungry and Have depleted any food left in the soil. Those smaller pots are hard to do organic soils in successfully without constant work. I keep a ten gallon bag of my amended top dressing available already mixed for flowering and top dress my twenty gallon pots once a month. I made so much soil at first that I have like 200 gallons of premade soil amended and ready for top dressing during veg. Gotta stay ahead I’ve learned in organic soil cause nutes aren’t immediately available and won’t be for a few waterings after applied.

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VincenzioVonHook said:

I've got a bunch of 10 gal fabrics coming for next round so I should hopefully do better. I was fed "organic is so much easier as you just have to water it" from mates, but they had been doing it for years and probably didn't realise I lacked the fundamental knowledge they had acquired over the years.

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Hiphophippo said:

I wouldn’t up the feed I’d wait a while to let the nutes break down and become available and do a light tea with some epsom salt. It doesn’t look any further along than the before pictures.

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