Had to switch Nutes, is this nute burn?

sudodaemon

sudodaemon

Well-Known Member
Growing Vanilla Kush, 600w MH about 20 inches from plant, 10 gallon DWC, temps never exceed 74-78. I started this grow with dyna-grow and cal-mag but I was having serious PH ssues, if I drained my res and started fresh it would be fine for 2 days, then it would start dropping .1 every hour. No matter what I did it would drop so I figured the problem was the nutes after fucking with these issues for about 2 weeks. I switched to Veg+Bloom and the tank is at about 600ppm and the ph has been stable at around 5.8 since I switched a little over a week ago. I'm figuring I need to lighten up a bit on the nutes, but I was also thinking that maybe this was caused by all the problems I was having before. Just curious as to what you guys think this is... my vote is i'm over-feeding and I'm thinking of bringing the ppm down to about 500, but that seems low to me.

First picture is of one of the worst leaves... Most of the leaves it is JUST the very tip of the leaf.

2013-02-21 09.23.09.jpg2013-02-21 09.24.59.jpgView attachment 2535456
 
melungeonman

melungeonman

Active Member
The damage is done now you must nurse them back, They are not as bad as they are about to look even if you cut back. They are at early stages of very bad burn in a few days this will look worse. No mater what you do. The nute over dose that did this is locked away in these plants vascular systems. It will take awhile for these damaged plants to recover, as they will need to use what they have locked away in their root systems. Let them utilize that untill you see definate recovery before resuming "any nutes" . Your problem isn"t unstable nutes. Its the over use of them. Your swings in water comes from the bromide used by your citys water engineer. Unless you have well water, that is very stable you will never be able to controll this. Its just the way it is. Every time the engineer finds excess bacteria. I.E. More than what the national limit allows they nuke it with free clorimines. (bromide, a type of sanitizer). That is what causes that slight chlorine smell in city water. bromide raises your Ph, this is a temparary thing as the bromide disipates the ph drops. You are adjusting your ph, to a temparary alkilinity .. What you want to do is mix smaller batches a day or twos worth at a time. dont add nutes to this water untill it sits for 24 or more hours, this chemical will take that long to dissipate. Then mix your nutes. peace. P.S. It is a poor Idea to switch nutes in the middle of a grow. Once again because of the nutes allready contained in the roots. now you are adding something new. are they compadible? Do the diffrent types of chemicals used to make these two brands jive with one and another? Don't know do ya ? I made this mistake once.... and never again spoiled a whole breeding project that way lost everything 3 years shot .....
 
sudodaemon

sudodaemon

Well-Known Member
melungeonman said:
The damage is done now you must nurse them back, They are not as bad as they are about to look even if you cut back. They are at early stages of very bad burn in a few days this will look worse. No mater what you do. The nute over dose that did this is locked away in these plants vascular systems. It will take awhile for these damaged plants to recover, as they will need to use what they have locked away in their root systems. Let them utilize that untill you see definate recovery before resuming "any nutes" . Your problem isn"t unstable nutes. Its the over use of them. Your swings in water comes from the bromide used by your citys water engineer. Unless you have well water, that is very stable you will never be able to controll this. Its just the way it is. Every time the engineer finds excess bacteria. I.E. More than what the national limit allows they nuke it with free clorimines. (bromide, a type of sanitizer). That is what causes that slight chlorine smell in city water. bromide raises your Ph, this is a temparary thing as the bromide disipates the ph drops. You are adjusting your ph, to a temparary alkilinity .. What you want to do is mix smaller batches a day or twos worth at a time. dont add nutes to this water untill it sits for 24 or more hours, this chemical will take that long to dissipate. Then mix your nutes. peace. P.S. It is a poor Idea to switch nutes in the middle of a grow. Once again because of the nutes allready contained in the roots. now you are adding something new. are they compadible? to the diffrent types of chemicals used to make these two brands jive with one and another? Don't know do ya ? I made this mistake once.... and never again spoiled a whole breeding project that way lost everything 3 years shot .....
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I use distilled water...

As for the ph problems i was having I could start it at 5.8-6.0, and it would be fine for the first few days, then the PH would start dropping .1 every hour. So if I got the ph at 6.0 at midnight, by the morning it would be low 5's... I work from home so I was able to keep it within range but it fluctuated that fast. I don't have these problems any more though after switching to Veg+Bloom... The dyna-grow i was using was a free sample they sent me, they probably sent me old shit.
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
When the pH drops I would bet your PPM stayed the same or maybe rose slightly. Indicating too heavy a PPM. Try draining some of the res and replacing it to lower PPM if this occurs again. And ask Superstoner1 or Krondizzel on here - they can get you the help you need ASAP if I am wrong. Melungeonman is right about the PPM but I think the bromide bit is a tangent. Not saying it doesn't affect but the odds . . . ..
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
Additionally the pics show upward canoeing of the leaves indicating heat stress. Get a lot of air moving or raise that MH even more. Add to this the blanched leaf tips indicate too heavy a nitrogen level.
 
sudodaemon

sudodaemon

Well-Known Member
My PPM always stayed around the same... I was in the 400's with the dyna grow, when i switched to veg+bloom i started at about 500 and got up to 600 but obviously i see i should be backing down a bit. I don't see how 400ppm of nutes would cause all those PH issues.... doesn't a bad batch of nutes sound more plausible?
 
Chiggachamp

Chiggachamp

Active Member
How u liking the vb in hydro?? I ran sum in coco and finishing up now. I don't kno if its my medium (roots organic soilless) but my roots look very weak and my plants did not produce what I had hoped. Still giving it a whril tho because I don't think I had em dialed in.
anywho I got a water farm also and im using flora nova bloom and it has a decent ph buffer.
 
sudodaemon

sudodaemon

Well-Known Member
Then wouldn't nute burn have set in earlier? The nute burn has only popped up in the last 5 days or so. I switched to veg+bloom about 7-8 days ago... before that it was around 400ppm of dyna-grow... Not saying you guys aren't right, I just don't understand how the hell 400ppm is over feeding a plant at the stage it was at then and now.

Again, I understand I'm over feeding now and that will be adjusted. But I don't understand how when I was feeding it 400ppm you guys are saying that is why my ph was dropping because I was over feeding... shit, 100ppm of that is cal-mag. Bad nutes sounds more logical to me, but then again, I may be an idiot...
 
sudodaemon

sudodaemon

Well-Known Member
Chiggachamp said:
How u liking the vb in hydro?? I ran sum in coco and finishing up now. I don't kno if its my medium (roots organic soilless) but my roots look very weak and my plants did not produce what I had hoped. Still giving it a whril tho because I don't think I had em dialed in.
anywho I got a water farm also and im using flora nova bloom and it has a decent ph buffer.
Click to expand...
Here is my roots...
2013-02-16-10.01.jpg

It's a massive ball.
 
G

GK1

Active Member
sudodaemon said:
My PPM always stayed around the same... I was in the 400's with the dyna grow, when i switched to veg+bloom i started at about 500 and got up to 600 but obviously i see i should be backing down a bit. I don't see how 400ppm of nutes would cause all those PH issues.... doesn't a bad batch of nutes sound more plausible?
Click to expand...

600 ppm is not enough to burn even in a constant feed application such as DWC. Chasing a particular number with respect to pH is never a good idea. Media pH changes daily, from night to day and in right conditions even hourly. The type of nitrogen affects pH. Cutting edge solutions suggests a range of 4.5-6.0 and heres a good read from Flairform http://www.flairform.com/hints/ph_optimum.htm.

When you were chasing pH, did you add pH up? I dont want to sound like a broken record but if you added straight with no dilutioin then you locked out cal......you could still be seeing the symptoms as the correction has been made. Cal is integral in the metabolic processes used to assimilate many other nutrients. Cal def isn't always about the classic yellow finger tips with brown blotchy spots....it can manifest as symptoms of the other nutrients it cant get due to low C.....make sense?

Overall it looks like a slight C issue. I'd stay at 5-600 ppm and iclude a calmag supp. Back off to 500 if you feel more comfy.

BTW Hydroton is notorius for pH swings/issues. Hope this helps. Peace.
 
G

GK1

Active Member
If you continue to battle the dropping pH lower the EC but dont if you continue to be stable. Have you checked the amount of C in the new nute brand? I'm really seeing it as a C issue....one way or another.
 
sudodaemon

sudodaemon

Well-Known Member
I have cal-mag but I'm reluctant to add any because I'm using the RO formula of Veg+Bloom... it's already at 18% calcium...
 
sudodaemon

sudodaemon

Well-Known Member
GK1 said:
If you continue to battle the dropping pH lower the EC but dont if you continue to be stable. Have you checked the amount of C in the new nute brand? I'm really seeing it as a C issue....one way or another.
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For the last 8 days my PH has never drifted past 5.6 - 6.2... So i'd say my PH issues are gone at least now... but obviously before that I was having PH issues for about 2 weeks or so... so could those past issues be what cause the C lockout then and could it just be manifesting on the leaves now?
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
I have limited experience this last year in DWC. I have found that PPM can be a problem that is strain-related. I have had several that ran low PPM (350-400) and any attempt to raise it resulted in the blanched tip syndrome. Good yields of killer smoke resulted. Then this White Label White Skunk I have thrived easily on what would have been burn territory for the Blue Widow. Read the plant as well as the meters and posts on here is all I can say. Your immediate problem today is heat stress looking at the pics.
 
G

GK1

Active Member
sudodaemon said:
For the last 8 days my PH has never drifted past 5.6 - 6.2... So i'd say my PH issues are gone at least now... but obviously before that I was having PH issues for about 2 weeks or so... so could those past issues be what cause the C lockout then and could it just be manifesting on the leaves now?
Click to expand...

Lockout is a lame excuse growers use when they really cant figure out what is wrong. Did you add pH up directly to your reservoir when you were chasing pH? If so, that is the culprit. Its a simple chemical reaction that occurs when you add extremely alkaline reagents to cal.....cal precipitates out of soln in the from of cal phosphate and falls to the bottom. This may or may not be happening. Either way, I'd check C levels in the new nutes. Be open that you may have more than one issue. You also could be spinning your wheels by insisting that pH is the culprit.

A better approach is to assess all cal in nutes, how its mixed (properly) and cal delivery. Be sure you have this covered before chasing unknowns.....it looks like cal it quacks like cal chances are its cal. Make sense? Get this covered and then approach anything you doubt. Its just the right approach. Make sense?
 
G

GK1

Active Member
hotrodharley said:
I have limited experience this last year in DWC. I have found that PPM can be a problem that is strain-related. I have had several that ran low PPM (350-400) and any attempt to raise it resulted in the blanched tip syndrome. Good yields of killer smoke resulted. Then this White Label White Skunk I have thrived easily on what would have been burn territory for the Blue Widow. Read the plant as well as the meters and posts on here is all I can say. Your immediate problem today is heat stress looking at the pics.
Click to expand...
Cant argue with that. Backing off to 400 is worth a shot if you feel cal has been looked at and is appropriate. I would watch closely tho because if it is a deficiency or shortage of any nute, backing off will exacerbate the issue quickly....far more quickly than you will see the correction manifest if lower EC is correct. Make sense?
 
sudodaemon

sudodaemon

Well-Known Member
I was adding ph up straight to the water in the beginning... people told me that was wrong so I started diluting it... this was all after draining my res so I was starting fresh. I still had the ph probs with that which is when I switched to veg+bloom...

http://www.hydroponic-research.com/products.html

the calcium is at 18%, that should be plenty... Now everything I've read about this nute, people say to just feed more if any deficiencies come up... Would you think me just feeding it some more could fix these cal issues if it is cal issues? I will agree that was my second thought after nute burn.
 
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