Hamas offensive against Israel

k0rps

Well-Known Member
24 hours for aid to enter Gaza before 'catastrophe': WHO
The Gaza Strip has only "24 hours of water, electricity and fuel left", the regional head of the United Nations' World Health Organization told AFP on Monday, as pressure mounts for assistance to arrive.

If aid is not allowed into the besieged territory, doctors will have to "prepare death certificates for their patients," WHO regional director for the eastern Mediterranean, Ahmed al-Mandhari, said in an interview with AFP.

Monday marked 10 days of relentless Israeli air strikes on targets in the Palestinian enclave, in retaliation for an October 7 attack by Gaza-based Hamas militants who killed 1,400 people, mostly civilians, in southern Israel.

Gaza is now barrelling towards "a real catastrophe", Mandhari said.

The Hamas-controlled health ministry in Gaza said around 2,750 people have been killed and 9,700 wounded while, according to the UN, one million have been displaced.

Power outages threaten to cripple life-support systems, from sea water desalination plants to food refrigeration and hospital incubators.

Even everyday functions -- from going to the toilet, showering and washing clothes -- are almost impossible, locals say.

With emergency responders overwhelmed, doctors working around the clock and a dire lack of space, "bodies cannot be properly taken care of", Mandhari said.

Overcrowding has paralysed hospitals, where "intensive care units, operating rooms, emergency services and other wings" are all on the brink of collapse, he said.

Israeli Energy Minister Israel Katz on Sunday said water supplies to southern Gaza had been switched back on, a week after Israel announced a "complete siege" cutting water, power and fuel supplies to the territory where it wants to crush Hamas.

Depriving civilians of goods essential for survival is banned under international law, the UN human rights chief has said.

- Left to die -

During the air and artillery bombardment, the WHO has recorded 111 medical facilities targeted, 12 health care workers killed and 60 ambulances bombed -- in violation of both "international law and the principles of humanity", Mandhari said.

A total of 22 hospitals in nothern Gaza are treating more than 2,000 patients, including "some on ventilators, some who need regular dialysis, in addition to children, infants and women".

The enclave's hospitals have run out of clean water, while "fuel shortages threaten electricity supply," he said.

As medical resources dry up, Mandhari said doctors -- who know they cannot save everyone -- are having to make impossible choices.

"They have to triage the patients who are coming in. They have no other choice. There are too many people, so some are left to die slow deaths."

Aid must be allowed to enter the Gaza Strip within one day before the situation becomes completely unmanageable, Mandhari said.

Convoys of international aid are waiting just across the border with Egypt, but they have been allowed no closer than the Egyptian town of El Arish, 50 kilometres (31 miles) away from the Rafah border crossing -- the only passage in and out of Gaza not controlled by Israel.

Cairo has refused to allow foreign nationals to exit without humanitarian aid coming in.

Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry accused Israel of blocking the aid, despite "repeated requests" from Cairo.

Under a joint Israeli-Egyptian blockade in place since Hamas took control of Gaza in 2007, Israel has a say in the passage of all goods and people coming in and out of the territory.

United States Secretary of State Antony Blinken returned to Israel on Monday after shuttling between Arab states, hoping to coordinate efforts against Hamas while finding ways to alleviate Gaza's humanitarian crisis.

He announced in Cairo on Sunday that the US had appointed veteran former diplomat David Satterfield to work on aid to Gaza.

The UN's humanitarian chief Martin Griffiths said he would be heading to the Middle East on Tuesday "to try to help in the negotiations" for aid access.

"We are in deep discussions with the Israelis, with the Egyptians and with others," Griffiths said.




Desperation mounts for millions as aid into Gaza blocked Palestinians are trapped in the heavily bombarded enclave with little food or water.

AFP - 16 Oct 2023, 10:25pm

JERUSALEM: Israel said today there was no temporary truce to allow aid in or foreigners out of the Gaza Strip, where desperation was mounting among millions of Palestinians trapped in the heavily bombarded enclave with little food or water.

US secretary of state Antony Blinken returned to Israel today before a looming ground offensive to “destroy” the Hamas Islamist group that rules Gaza, and emphasised that “civilians should not have to suffer for Hamas’ atrocities”.

Stay up-to-date by following FMT's Telegram channel Israel declared war on Hamas a day after waves of its fighters broke through the heavily fortified border on Oct 7, shooting, stabbing and burning to death more than 1,400 people, most of them civilians.

Reeling from the deadliest attack in its history, Israel has unleashed a relentless bombing campaign of the Gaza Strip, flattening neighbourhoods and killing at least 2,750 people, mainly civilians.

But with Israeli troops massed along the border, its calculations to invade Gaza where Hamas has built a warren of tunnels are complicated by the presence of 199 hostages captured by the Islamists.

The entire region was “on the verge of the abyss”, warned UN chief Antonio Guterres, as cross-border fire also intensified between Israel and the Lebanese Iran-backed Hezbollah group, which has warned of retaliation if Israeli forces move into Gaza.

In Gaza, there were scenes of panic, anger and despair all around, as Palestinians heeded Israeli warnings to vacate the north before its major offensive.

But the arrival of hundreds of thousands of people in the south was putting severe pressure on a place which had little resources to begin with and from where it is impossible to leave.

“No electricity, no water, no internet. I feel like I’m losing my humanity,” said Mona Abdel Hamid, 55, who fled Gaza City to Rafah in the south, where she is staying with strangers.

Trapped

With Israeli-controlled crossings closed and Egypt also having shut the Rafah border in the south, Gazans are effectively trapped.

Any departure of Palestinians from Gaza is a sensitive issue, with Arab nations fearing that it could lead to permanent expulsion, something which Blinken has also categorically rejected.

Foreigners have flocked to Rafah in the hopes of being let out, after Blinken said he was confident the crossing “will be open” for aid into the strip.

Reports had suggested that Egypt was blocking the passage of Gazans with foreign passports until relief supplies are allowed in.

But Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office dashed hopes of a deal, saying in a statement today that “there is currently no ceasefire and humanitarian aid in Gaza in return for removing foreigners”.

German national Ahmed Al Qasas, who has been waiting at the border three days for a chance to cross said “people here are barely receiving water and food”.

“In Gaza, in general, you can’t say there is a safe zone for any person or for any animal or for even stones,” said Danish national Etaf Al Rai, also waiting at Rafah in the hope of leaving.

Lynn Hastings, the UN humanitarian coordinator for the Palestinian territories, accused Israel of linking humanitarian aid into Gaza with the release of hostages abducted by Hamas.

“Neither should be conditional,” she insisted in a video posted by the UN.

“They have said they want to destroy Hamas, but their current trajectory is going to destroy Gaza.”
 
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printer

Well-Known Member
I think Israel trading off humanitarian supplies for the hostages and leaving the rest of the Palestinians alone would be a good move for them. Go after the tunnels, a few of the Hamas leadership and then go home. It would be a measured response to the attack on it. Mind you, I think Hamas will not release the hostages any time soon if Israel is coming after them and if the Palestinian people suffer, so be it.
 

BudmanTX

Well-Known Member
Oh Iran thank for the 9 billion dollar donation to the humanitarian situation in Gaza...

i mean since your apart of it, it's only fitting.......right
 

printer

Well-Known Member

BudmanTX

Well-Known Member

printer

Well-Known Member
Hamas ready to release hostages if Israeli airstrikes stop: Iran
Iran’s Foreign Ministry claimed that the militant group Hamas is prepared to release the hostages it’s holding in Gaza if Israel ceases its airstrikes.
Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesperson Nasser Kanaani said Hamas officials “stated that they are ready to take necessary measures to release the citizens and civilians held by resistant groups, but their point was that such measures require preparations that are impossible under daily bombardment by the Zionists against various parts of Gaza,” The Associated Press reported.

Israel said Monday that Hamas is believed to be holding 199 people hostage, which is up from the previous estimate. This includes children and the elderly and is also believed to include U.S. citizens.

National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby told reporters last week there was a “very small” number of Americans believed to be held as hostages, but he wasn’t aware of proof of life and couldn’t provide details about their whereabouts or condition.

Speaking at a news conference, Kanaani said that Hamas has stated that “they have no problem to continue resisting.”
“They said the resistance holds military capability to continue resisting in the field for a long time,” he said, speaking of Hamas.

The State Department is also warning Americans not to travel to Gaza and is asking Americans to “reconsider” traveling to Israel and the West Bank.
Hamas launched its deadly attack more than a week ago, prompting Israel to declare war on the group. Israel has said more than 1,400 Israelis have been killed so far. At least 2,750 Palestinians have also been killed and another 9,700 wounded, according to the Gaza Health Ministry.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
UN Agency Claims Fuel and Medical Supplies Were Stolen in Gaza
The United Nations’ agency for Palestinian refugees on Monday said fuel and medical supplies were stolen from the organization’s compound in Gaza. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) said in a statement that on Sunday, people “purporting to be from the Ministry of Health of the de facto authorities (DFA) in Gaza” came with trucks and removed the supplies from the agency’s compound in Gaza City. The compound was evacuated last Friday and the agency’s workers have not been able to return. Hamas are the de facto authorities in Gaza—the besieged enclave which is currently running out of basic supplies including fuel and medicine, as well as food and water. “UNRWA’s fuel and other types of material are kept for strictly humanitarian purposes, and any use of such assets for any other purposes is strongly condemned,” the agency added.
 

k0rps

Well-Known Member
"The effectiveness of Israeli propaganda is not a result of its power, truth, or even savviness, but the near complete absence of voices that are refuting what Israel says and what mainstream media repeat.

For example, Israel claims that Palestinians are beheading babies, creating a massive shock that is being used to dehumanize Palestinians and their resistance.

This is functional. Following this, Israel intensified its genocidal war against Gaza, killing babies along with their mothers and fathers.


The main difference between Palestinians killing Israeli babies and Israelis killing Palestinian babies, is that the latter is well documented while the former is just a claim and most likely a lie.

Palestinian activists, intellectuals and journalists are fighting back, however, refuting Israeli propaganda, better yet, explaining why this propaganda is functional in the Israeli war narrative.


And here, is a brief explanation offered by Palestinian intellectual, Dr. Ramzy Baroud, on why Israel needs this propaganda now more than ever before."

(The Palestine Chronicle)

 

k0rps

Well-Known Member

In a gripping account of the events that unfolded during the Hamas assault on settlements near the Gaza boundary on October 7th, an Israeli woman, Yasmin Porat, has come forward with a startling claim: that Israeli civilians "undoubtably" were tragically killed by their own security forces during the intense confrontation.

It happened when Israeli forces engaged in fierce gun battles with Palestinian fighters in Kibbutz Be’eri and fired indiscriminately at both the fighters and their Israeli prisoners.

“They eliminated everyone, including the hostages,” she told Israeli radio. “There was very, very heavy crossfire” and even tank shelling.

The woman, a 44-year-old mother of three Yasmin Porat, alongside other civilians were been held hostage by the Palestinians for several hours, but treated "humanely" She had fled the nearby “Nova” rave.

A recording of her interview, from the radio program Haboker Hazeh (“This Morning”) hosted by Aryeh Golan on state broadcaster Kan, has been circulating all over social media.


Edit: link to article
 
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printer

Well-Known Member
The woman, a 44-year-old mother of three Yasmin Porat, alongside other civilians were been held hostage by the Palestinians for several hours, but treated "humanely" She had fled the nearby “Nova” rave.
There are pictures of the aftermath of the rave. From what I have seen it was not a place of safety. Not sure what that says about your source.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Hamas just said they will release all foreign hostages unconditionally, including Americans, when is the question. This will put heat on Israel to hold off on their offensive.
 

sunni

Administrator
Staff member
As a reminder we do not post links or videos of graphic photos etc, we dont do "war porn" here, its not osmething our mod team needs to be subjected too or anyone utilizing the website

Secondly it appears yet again we are attacking at people nit picking words, specifics etc instead of a political discussion this turns the thread from about the topic at hand and two people going back and forth with eachother over semantics again you know exactly who you are that does this, stop it im tried of telling you too
 

k0rps

Well-Known Member
Peaceful Pro-Palestinian protests proceed in the US after "terrorist threats" fear campaign failed. Support for Palestine gains throughout the world.

What are they standing taking a stand against? Zionism and the systems that keep Palestinians and other-than-Israeli people oppressed. Example: Israeli authorities kick out Americans in public area for filming. Zionist supporter steps in and shares his views.

Israel is being called out for the war crimes they're committing, like bombing another hospital in Gaza.
Recent interview clip of Husam Zomlot, Palestinian ambassador to the UK.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Not sure if this can be watched outside nl: Left Israel is mad at global left

So I typed out the words from Ran Heilbrunn, Israeli author, Tel Aviv uni, co-signer of an open letter, from 60 anti-Netanyahu leftist Israeli academics and prominent intellectuals, to the global left. This is not from the open letter itself but from a short convo from tv with Heilbrunn, my comments in brackets.

*********
“I don’t expect sympathy for the Israeli government. But it seems to me that many people on the left forget that Israel is also a society. Not just policy, not just politicians. It‘s a society. […] Left has reduced Israel to its policies and I think this is a mistake. It’s an intellectual mistake, a moral mistake and also a political mistake. [amen…]

Democratic Socialists of America is probably the biggest left-wing organization of the US. The fact they organize a protest for solidarity with Palestine [
shouting Hamas slogans that mean the denial of Israel's right to exist] while the events here were still taking place is indicative of the [atypical] degree of insensitivity [regarding those who are successfully demonized].”

[An Israeli woman, another signer of the letter talking about how she understands the urge to discuss context when there's a bomb attack on a bus for example...]. Heilbrunn continues:

“The demand for this context [a demand perfectly demonstrated earlier on in this thread] serves a sort of political purpose. Perhaps it serves a kinda of psychological purpose. It serves the kind of purpose of, you know, not allowing your opinions to be changed [but double down instead]. Or not allowing yourself to be shocked by something you’re usually not shocked by… like attacks against Israelis [specifically]”
*********

Pretty much the same observations I posted in previous replies. I can't think of a more authoritative confirmation that is the perception on the left there too. A problem, as explained by one of the signers, a Palestinian woman, peace activist, because with this let's say inconsistency the global Palestinian solidarity movement risks losing legitimacy for Israelis and thus hurt the Palestinian cause. Posting videos to echo the message 'Israel = bad guys' isn't helping Palestinians one bit.

Palestinian rapper walking across the street in Israel yesterday, people ask who he supports, he responds: "the good guys, on Israeli and Palestinian side". I don't subscribe to the christian good vs evil very much, I root for reasonable, and that was a very reasonable answer.
 

k0rps

Well-Known Member
Targeting journalists hinders the ability to tell true and correct stories. Freedom of the press is a right that's commonly respected (in the "free world") but we can clearly see Israel authorities and IDF don't share the same respect.

Journalists are among the casualties in the war between Israel and Hamas
At least 11 journalists have died over the past week in the deadly confrontation between Hamas and Israel.

Reporters Without Borders reports, “Five Palestinian journalists are among the hundreds of civilians who have been killed in the military offensive by Hamas and the response by the Israel Defense Forces.” At least one journalist working in Israel was also killed.

The Committee to Protect Journalists is investigating the journalists killed in Israel and Gaza and is compiling an updated list of the dead, missing and injured.
On Friday afternoon, Reuters reported that videographer Issam Abdallah had been killed. Reuters journalists Thaer Al-Sudani and Maher Nazeh “also sustained injuries and are seeking medical care.”

Three journalists died from an airstrike in Gaza on Oct. 10. Reporters Without Borders says the journalists killed were:

Mohammed Soboh, a photojournalist with the Palestinian news agency Khabar

Said al-Tawil, the editor of the independent Palestinian TV news channel Al Khamissa

Hisham al-Nawajha, an Al Khamissa photojournalist

At least two other journalists were killed in Israeli airstrikes:

Ahmed Shehab, a journalist for Sowt Al-Asra Radio (Radio Voice of the Prisoners), died an Israeli airstrike that struck his house in the northern Gaza Strip, the Committee to Protect Journalists reported. His wife and three children were also killed.

Mohamed Fayez Abu Matara, a freelance photojournalist, was killed during an Israeli airstrike, according to The Palestinian Journalists’ Syndicate.

Reporters Without Borders and the Committee to Protect Journalists have identified more journalists who have died from gunshots in the opening days of this war:

Ibrahim Lafi, a Palestinian photojournalist with the Ain Media production company
Mohammad al-Salihi, a freelance photojournalist reporting for the Palestinian news agency al-Sulta al-Rabia

Mohammad Jarghoun, a journalist with Smart Media. Jarghoun was shot while reporting on the conflict in an area to the east of Rafah city in the southern Gaza Strip, according to Palestinian press freedom group MADA and the JSC.

Ibrahim Mohammad Lafi, a photographer for Ain Media, was shot and killed at the Gaza Strip’s Erez Crossing into Israel, according to MADA and JSC.

Yaniv Zohar, “An Israeli photographer working for the Israeli Hebrew-language daily newspaper Israel Hayom, was killed during a Hamas attack on Kibbutz Nahal Oz in southern Israel,” the Committee to Protect Journalists reports. ”Israel Hayom and Israel National News reported that his wife and two daughters also died in the attack. Israel Hayom editor-in-chief Omer Lachmanovitch told CPJ that Yaniv was working on that day.”

Two more journalists, Ain Media’s Haitham Abdelwahid and Nidal Al-Wahidi, are missing and may have been captured by Israeli forces.

Local media offices in Gaza have experienced gunfire and worse. An Israeli airstrike destroyed the independent newspaper Al-Ayyam, located in the Palestine Tower in Gaza, but the news organization is still publishing online.
In May 2023, the Committee to Protect Journalists published “Deadly Pattern,” which documented how nobody has been held accountable for nearly two dozen journalist deaths prior to this week. The Gaza Strip and the West Bank are among the most dangerous zones on the planet for working journalists. In the last decade, 22 journalists have died there. A fourth of those deaths occurred this week. The committee’s investigation found a pattern of Israeli responses to calls for investigations into the deaths of journalists:

The military consistently says its troops feared for their safety or came under attack and declines to revisit its rules of engagement. In at least 13 cases, witness testimonies and independent reports were discounted. Conflicts of interest in the chain of command are overlooked. The military’s probes are classified and the army makes no evidence for its conclusions public. In some cases, Israel labels journalists as terrorists, or appears not to have looked into journalist killings at all. The result is always the same — no one is held responsible.


The death toll of journalists will undoubtedly grow in the days ahead as reporters, photographers and producers document the unfolding horror that will accompany a ground war in Gaza. It will be vitally important to document how or whether Israel attempts to minimize civilian deaths while attempting to obliterate Hamas and rescue hostages.

Issam Abdallah, Lebanese videographer
In an interview with Reuters, Fatima Kanso, Abdallah's mother, blamed Israel for the death of her son.

"Israel deliberately killed my son. They were all wearing journalists' gear and the word 'press' was visible. Israel cannot deny this crime," she added.

Shortly before Abdallah was killed, he posted on social media a photograph of himself wearing a helmet and a flak jacket with the word "press" visible on it.

The Israel Defense Forces did not immediately respond to a request for comment on Kanso's remarks.

"We always try to mitigate and avoid civilian casualties," Erdan, Israel's UN envoy, said to reporters in a briefing.

“We regret them. We feel sorry. And we will investigate it. Right now, it's too early to call what happened there," he said.

The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, a peacekeeping unit that patrols Lebanon's border with Israel, said it was saddened by the news and called for the firing to stop.
Another video shows Israeli police threatening press on camera saying, "Gaza will turn to dust."
 
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bursto

Well-Known Member
governments are not institutes of justice, but rather systems of oppression upholding the rule of the powerful over the weak
 

k0rps

Well-Known Member
governments are not institutes of justice, but rather systems of oppression upholding the rule of the powerful over the weak
Another interesting note to mention are the Freemasons who helped establish Israel, not sure if you've seen this but..

U.S. President Harry Truman was the first world leader to officially recognize Israel as a legitimate Jewish state on May 14, 1948, only eleven minutes after its creation. His decision came after much discussion and advice from the White House staff who had differing viewpoints. Some advisors felt that creating a Jewish state was the only proper response to the holocaust and would benefit American interests. Others took the opposite view, concerned about that the creation of a Jewish state would create more conflict in an already tumultuous region.
harrys.gif
Harry S. Truman, Grand Master
President 1945-1953 / Master Mason 1909
Master Mason 1909, EA Feb. 9, 1909, Belton Lodge No. 450, Grandview, Missouri, MM 1909. In 1911, Truman was the 1st WM of the new Grandview Lodge No. 618. Grand Master of Missouri 1940-1941. Very active and supportive of Freemasonry, Master of Missouri Lodge of Research while U.S. President, Masonic Ritualist, district lecturer and deputy Grand Master for several years, buried with Masonic rites in Independence, MO, in televised ceremony.

Harry S. Truman was Grand Master of Missouri, an enthusiastic Masonic ritualist, and Master of lodges while an active politician. He attended Masonic lodge meetings while campaigning, and while he was President of the U.S., and he wrote, “The greatest honor that has ever come to me, and that can ever come to me in my life, is to be Grand Master of Masons in Missouri”
On November 2, 1917, Balfour
wrote a momentous letter to the
most influential Jewish leader in
Britain, Lord Walter Rothschild.
This letter which began, "His
Majesty's Government views with
favor the establishment in
Palestine of a national home for
the Jewish people," became the
legal basis for the partition of
Palestine and establishment of a
Jewish state.

On November 19,1947, right
before an important vote in the
United Nations on the partition of
Palestine, Weizmann flew to
Washington, D.C. to lobby
American President Harry
Truman. After a brief meeting,
Weizmann persuaded a
conflicted Truman to support the
establishment of a Jewish state,
and Truman proceeded to pull
out all the stops, and heavily
lobbied numerous delegates to
ensure that the resolution
fayoring partition received
enough votes to pass.

On November 29, 1947, with a
vote of 33 in favor, 10 against,
and 13 abstentions, UN
Resolution 181 became the
international basis for the
establishment of the modern
state of Israel.

On May 14, 1948, the Jewish
Agency for Palestine led by David
Ben Gurion declared the
establishment of the state of
Israel, and Truman recognized
the new country within minutes
of the announcement. The next
day, the British Mandate expired
and modern Israel was born.

Against all odds and despite
more threats on its life than any
country in modern history, Israel
survives and thrives into its
seventh decade

David Ben Gurion became its
first prime minister and Chaim
Weizmann its first president. The
men pictured on this slide played
a pivotal role in the history of
modern Israel; all save one were Freemasons.


If fr33masons were so involved in what we know of as modern day Israel, hunch is they'd still be involved today.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Another interesting note to mention are the Freemasons who helped establish Israel, not sure if you've seen this but..

U.S. President Harry Truman was the first world leader to officially recognize Israel as a legitimate Jewish state on May 14, 1948, only eleven minutes after its creation. His decision came after much discussion and advice from the White House staff who had differing viewpoints. Some advisors felt that creating a Jewish state was the only proper response to the holocaust and would benefit American interests. Others took the opposite view, concerned about that the creation of a Jewish state would create more conflict in an already tumultuous region.
View attachment 5336285


On November 2, 1917, Balfour
wrote a momentous letter to the
most influential Jewish leader in
Britain, Lord Walter Rothschild.
This letter which began, "His
Majesty's Government views with
favor the establishment in
Palestine of a national home for
the Jewish people," became the
legal basis for the partition of
Palestine and establishment of a
Jewish state.

On November 19,1947, right
before an important vote in the
United Nations on the partition of
Palestine, Weizmann flew to
Washington, D.C. to lobby
American President Harry
Truman. After a brief meeting,
Weizmann persuaded a
conflicted Truman to support the
establishment of a Jewish state,
and Truman proceeded to pull
out all the stops, and heavily
lobbied numerous delegates to
ensure that the resolution
fayoring partition received
enough votes to pass.

On November 29, 1947, with a
vote of 33 in favor, 10 against,
and 13 abstentions, UN
Resolution 181 became the
international basis for the
establishment of the modern
state of Israel.

On May 14, 1948, the Jewish
Agency for Palestine led by David
Ben Gurion declared the
establishment of the state of
Israel, and Truman recognized
the new country within minutes
of the announcement. The next
day, the British Mandate expired
and modern Israel was born.

Against all odds and despite
more threats on its life than any
country in modern history, Israel
survives and thrives into its
seventh decade

David Ben Gurion became its
first prime minister and Chaim
Weizmann its first president. The
men pictured on this slide played
a pivotal role in the history of
modern Israel; all save one were Freemasons.


If fr33masons were so involved in what we know of as modern day Israel, hunch is they'd still be involved today.
Hunch? Hey, might as well post it on X where it will become the truth.
 
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