Hamas offensive against Israel

Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
CANON_Grow said:
I don't think relying on a terrorist organization to give up is a reasonable plan to minimize civilian casualties. The only chance of reducing death and suffering is the belief that Israel will see the humanitarian crisis and will do what is necessary and adjust tactics. I fully understand it is not fair to expect Israel to fight following the rules while Hamas is not held to the same standard, so unless the belief is that this fight is the final one to bring lasting peace, is this battle worth losing the war?

Two points of view, both Jewish Israelis with experience in government, comments from after the attack - who would you support more in any future conflict?

Example 1:
"I have to condemn totally, with no reservation, of course, the terrible slaughter that Hamas carried out against innocent civilians in the south of Israel. There was no justification for such a massacre,"
"Having been saying that, there's no justification for the carnage that Israel carries out at the moment. Because those who are harmed, assaulted and killed [are] mostly innocent civilians."

But what does a peaceful solution look like when we're talking about attacks like these, the horrors you've described? You and so many others have lost loved ones. And we know there are still hostages being held. What, realistically, should Israel do?
The war should be ended because people — the vast majority of people who will pay the price, Israelis and Palestinians — are innocent civilians that only want to live. Including babies and small kids, small children. Israelis and Palestinians, they should live in security and peace. War doesn't deliver that.
It will only deliver more revenge, more violence. That circle should be ended.
It won't deliver security. And I believe that even the Israeli government knows that. But it is too busy in revenge.



Example 2:
“In order for us to be able to [achieve our military goals] in Gaza, we need abilities and we need time,” Cohen told Kan public radio. “The element of time is critical — right now Gaza is under siege… and I have said we should not ‘blink’ on that.”

Cohen said he views the government’s decision on Sunday to restart water flow to the southern part of the Strip as “blinking… if it’s due to international pressure.”

“International pressure doesn’t understand that civilians from Gaza, civilians, not just Hamas terrorists… took part in the abominable murders of children, babies and women.”

The former Mossad chief said that the government and the military must take “the most practical approach to defeating Hamas rule,” adding that “the previous state of affairs will never return.”

www.timesofisrael.com

Ex-Mossad chief: Israel should not bow to global pressure to end Gaza siege

Yossi Cohen says world doesn't understand that civilians in Strip also 'took part in abominable murders of children, babies and women'; says water, basics should be allowed in
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com
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Holy crap, that Mossad dude is a piece of work. Of the 2 million residents in Gaza, half are kids and he says they are as guilty as the Hamas terrorists. He seems disgusted by the act of giving them water. Unless the political situation changes quickly in Israel, the carnage will be historic.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
There are two million civilians in the Gaza Strip. The IDF has 170,000 active and 495,000 reserve personnel. How do you propose they do what you say? I can't imagine the operation you suggest being humane.
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They will do it one piece at a time until they corner Hamas, how they do it is beyond my control, but perhaps not Joe's. IMO there will be little doubt they will do it, to rescue hostages and get retribution on Hamas. I didn't watch much of the terrorist attack videos, too distasteful and distressing, but the Israeli's did, and they are very pissed off as a nation. Printer posted a video featuring a very pissed of Israeli official on RT blaming the Russians and making dire threats against Russia and one would assume Iran for their support of Hamas and other terrorist groups in Lebanon and Syria.

We have no control over this situation, Joe is trying to moderate the Israeli response and trying to help the Palestinian civilians in Gaza. The only side I'm really on here is the humanitarian one and that does not include Hamas, Israel hopefully has some sense of shame that will stay their hand as far as civilians are concerned. If it wasn't for the good offices of the POTUS, I fear Gaza might not exist, whatever that might mean.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
They will do it one piece at a time until they corner Hamas, how they do it is beyond my control, but perhaps not Joe's. IMO there will be little doubt they will do it, to rescue hostages and get retribution on Hamas. I didn't watch much of the terrorist attack videos, too distasteful and distressing, but the Israeli's did, and they are very pissed off as a nation. Printer posted a video featuring a very pissed of Israeli official on RT blaming the Russians and making dire threats against Russia and one would assume Iran for their support of Hamas and other terrorist groups in Lebanon and Syria.

We have no control over this situation, Joe is trying to moderate the Israeli response and trying to help the Palestinian civilians in Gaza. The only side I'm really on here is the humanitarian one and that does not include Hamas, Israel hopefully has some sense of shame that will stay their hand as far as civilians are concerned. If it wasn't for the good offices of the POTUS, I fear Gaza might not exist, whatever that might mean.
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I agree that what you describe is what Netanyahu is planning to do. Hamas wins.

 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I agree that what you describe is what Netanyahu is planning to do. Hamas wins.

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We both know how to win the peace, but in this case, it is rather difficult to implement, or to force its implementation. Then add to that Iran and Russia looking to inflame the situation for their own purposes along with Hamas and others. The charter and goal of Hamas is genocidal, and they make no secret of it. Israel is moving to the right because of demographics, religious and fanatical Jews have more kids than secular ones and many move to the west bank and other occupied territories seeking to change the "facts on the ground". They hold the balance of power politically and Bebe would lose his job and probably freedom, the recent massive protests about him trying to be above the law weakened and divided the nation.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
What happened at the hospital was horrible and both sides have a hand in it happening regardless who fired the missile. But that event is minutia compared to the military operation Israel is carrying out.

This is what has my attention and concern. This is why I can no longer support US policies toward Israel:

www.reuters.com

Hamas frees U.S. hostages Judith and Natalie Raanan held in Gaza

The Islamist group Hamas released two U.S. hostages, mother and daughter Judith and Natalie Raanan, who were kidnapped in its attack on southern Israel on Oct. 7, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said on Friday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant, who told troops the previous day that an order to invade would come soon, said on Friday that achieving Israel's objectives would not be quick or easy.

"We will topple the Hamas organisation. We will destroy its military and governing infrastructure. It's a phase that will not be easy. It will have a price," he told a parliamentary committee.

He added that the subsequent phase would be more drawn out, but was aimed at achieving "a completely different security situation" with no threat to Israel from Gaza. "It's not a day, it's not a week, and unfortunately it's not a month," he said.

Israel's fascist government intends genocide and is using the terrorist attack that Hamas perpetrated as an excuse to carry that out. Hamas doesn't care about the people of Gaza either. They are using Israel's actions to trigger a larger war in the Middle East. Let us not be chumps and fall for the propaganda that is being used to influence people one way or the other. Hamas or Israel, both sides are bad. Whatever Biden does, I will judge his success or failure by how successful Hamas or Israel are in achieving their objectives. If Israel does not succeed in displacing Palestinians from their homeland and Hamas does not succeed in triggering war between Israel and other states in the ME, then I'll credit Biden with a win.
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If he saves the people of Gaza he should get a Nobel, most of this is beyond Joe's control, he has a lot of influence and can pull a lot of strings and perhaps prevent a wider war. However, he has his own agenda with Iran and Russia, and it looks like Israel will be coming on board with both, if they attack the right targets in Iran and help out with Russia to punish them. Joe is juggling several balls in the air here, American hostages, and mitigating the harm to Gaza's civilians while preventing a larger war in the immediate vicinity, American Troops have been attacked in Iraq and Syria and a US ship endured a 9-hour long missile attack off the coast.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
We both know how to win the peace, but in this case, it is rather difficult to implement, or to force its implementation. Then add to that Iran and Russia looking to inflame the situation for their own purposes along with Hamas and others. The charter and goal of Hamas is genocidal, and they make no secret of it. Israel is moving to the right because of demographics, religious and fanatical Jews have more kids than secular ones and many move to the west bank and other occupied territories seeking to change the "facts on the ground". They hold the balance of power politically and Bebe would lose his job and probably freedom, the recent massive protests about him trying to be above the law weakened and divided the nation.
Click to expand...
This is what happens when fascists hold power. Cruelty is the point.

It is my hope that Biden can use his leverage with Israel's government to stop this. Beau of the fifth column expresses the same hope only gives it more substance.


Meanwhile inside Israel:

www.aljazeera.com

Israel police boss threatens to send anti-war protesters to Gaza ‘on buses’

Kobi Shabtai says there will be ‘zero tolerance’ for protests in support of Gaza in Israel.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com

Is this a valid source? Media Bias/Fact Check says they have left of center bias and mixed credibility. They are mostly accurate but use loaded terms. So, I'll just stick to direct quotes from them with the warning that those quotes are probably cherry picked to emphasize a point.

What they describe is horrible.

“Whoever wants to become an Israeli citizen, welcome,” Shabtai said. “Anyone who wants to identify with Gaza is welcome. I will put him on the buses heading there now.”

By the term "whoever" the Chief means Palestinian. IDK if he means Israeli Citizen or not but he definitely means Palestinian.

Police officials told the Ynet news site on Wednesday that they are scouring social media to find Palestinians in Israel who were expressing support for Hamas, the group running the besieged Gaza Strip.

Fascists do not believe in freedom of speech. They are the state, they have an agenda and they decide what people may say about it.

Meanwhile, the ethics panel of the Israeli parliament has voted to suspend a left-wing parliament member, Ofer Cassif, for what it deemed as anti-Israel statements after the war broke out.

Cassif had given an interview in which he accused the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of enacting a plan in Gaza, which he compared with the Nazis’ “Final Solution” against Jews in Europe.

On another occasion, he told foreign media that “Israel wanted this violence”, in reference to the Hamas attack.

They suspended a member of Parliament, basically disenfranchising the people who elected him. Fascists have no regard for democracy.

At the moment, it is impossible for the people of Israel to rise up and stop Netanyahu if they wanted to. They can't even speak about the situation unless they pay lip service to the glory of an operation that could end in the deaths of up to a million kids.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
This is what happens when fascists hold power. Cruelty is the point.

It is my hope that Biden can use his leverage with Israel's government to stop this. Beau of the fifth column expresses the same hope only gives it more substance.


Meanwhile inside Israel:

www.aljazeera.com

Israel police boss threatens to send anti-war protesters to Gaza ‘on buses’

Kobi Shabtai says there will be ‘zero tolerance’ for protests in support of Gaza in Israel.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com

Is this a valid source? Media Bias/Fact Check says they have left of center bias and mixed credibility. They are mostly accurate but use loaded terms. So, I'll just stick to direct quotes from them with the warning that those quotes are probably cherry picked to emphasize a point.

What they describe is horrible.

“Whoever wants to become an Israeli citizen, welcome,” Shabtai said. “Anyone who wants to identify with Gaza is welcome. I will put him on the buses heading there now.”

By the term "whoever" the Chief means Palestinian. IDK if he means Israeli Citizen or not but he definitely means Palestinian.

Police officials told the Ynet news site on Wednesday that they are scouring social media to find Palestinians in Israel who were expressing support for Hamas, the group running the besieged Gaza Strip.

Fascists do not believe in freedom of speech. They are the state, they have an agenda and they decide what people may say about it.

Meanwhile, the ethics panel of the Israeli parliament has voted to suspend a left-wing parliament member, Ofer Cassif, for what it deemed as anti-Israel statements after the war broke out.

Cassif had given an interview in which he accused the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of enacting a plan in Gaza, which he compared with the Nazis’ “Final Solution” against Jews in Europe.

On another occasion, he told foreign media that “Israel wanted this violence”, in reference to the Hamas attack.

They suspended a member of Parliament, basically disenfranchising the people who elected him. Fascists have no regard for democracy.

At the moment, it is impossible for the people of Israel to rise up and stop Netanyahu if they wanted to. They can't even speak about the situation unless they pay lip service to the glory of an operation that could end in the deaths of up to a million kids.
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Sounds a bit like Russia and the terrorist attack, the warnings of which were apparently ignored, conveniently rescued Bebe's ass from the political division and protests. IMO he and his government fucked up in allowing this attack to happen in the first place, so the question is how can they learn from this attack when an inquiry is likely to be rigged or even suppressed?

Bebe is being warned by everybody from Biden to Zelensky with MBS in between to go easy on the civilians in Gaza and that genocide is unacceptable. He risks being indicted as a war criminal in the Hague FFS, look what that did for Putin, if he visited America Joe would arrest him and send him off to Europe, Canada sure as shit would!
 
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Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I'm wondering where @BudmanTX and @DIY-HP-LED came by their opinions that Russia had a hand in Iran-backed Hamas's attack on Israel? An Israeli official spoke out sternly to Russia about "taking note" over Russia's support for Hamas but as far as I can tell there is no evidence that Russia had a role in the attack. Yes, Russia is seeking whatever advantage it can get out of the situation. Still, though, they aren't eager to make an enemy out of Israel right now.

foreignpolicy.com

Where Does Russia Stand on the Israel-Hamas War?

Moscow may temporarily profit from the West’s focus on the Middle East, but navigating its ties in the region will be tricky.
foreignpolicy.com foreignpolicy.com
.

Over the years, some Russian-made weapons—such as anti-tank and shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles— have made their way into Gaza, likely via Iran. But so far, there is no clear evidence that Russia supported Hamas in planning or executing its surprise attack on Israel.

But that does not mean that Russia is a nonentity in this latest Israel-Hamas conflict. Since launching its full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Moscow has dramatically deepened its cooperation with Iran. In return for Iranian combat drones and other military gear, Russia has stepped up its defense support for Tehran, including—as the United States fears—with assistance for its missile and space-launched vehicle programs. There has been a flurry of Iranian-Russian military engagement, including Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu’s tour of an arms exhibition in Tehran last month.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I'm wondering where @BudmanTX and @DIY-HP-LED came by their opinions that Russia had a hand in Iran-backed Hamas's attack on Israel? An Israeli official spoke out sternly to Russia about "taking note" over Russia's support for Hamas but as far as I can tell there is no evidence that Russia had a role in the attack. Yes, Russia is seeking whatever advantage it can get out of the situation. Still, though, they aren't eager to make an enemy out of Israel right now.

foreignpolicy.com

Where Does Russia Stand on the Israel-Hamas War?

Moscow may temporarily profit from the West’s focus on the Middle East, but navigating its ties in the region will be tricky.
foreignpolicy.com foreignpolicy.com
.

Over the years, some Russian-made weapons—such as anti-tank and shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles— have made their way into Gaza, likely via Iran. But so far, there is no clear evidence that Russia supported Hamas in planning or executing its surprise attack on Israel.

But that does not mean that Russia is a nonentity in this latest Israel-Hamas conflict. Since launching its full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Moscow has dramatically deepened its cooperation with Iran. In return for Iranian combat drones and other military gear, Russia has stepped up its defense support for Tehran, including—as the United States fears—with assistance for its missile and space-launched vehicle programs. There has been a flurry of Iranian-Russian military engagement, including Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu’s tour of an arms exhibition in Tehran last month.
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Personally, I think both Russia and Iran were blindsided by this attack, Hamas leadership said less than a half dozen knew until the last minute. I was a bit surprised by the vehemence of that Israeli official on RT and the announcer was clearly uncomfortable with his rhetoric which was menacing to say the least the guy near had a stroke on camera he was that pissed. He spoke about support for Hamas and other enemies of Israel, not about involvement in the attack, though many have been trying to tie the can to Vlad's tail over that. I got the distinct impression Ukraine had a new ally and Russia a new enemy.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I'm wondering where @BudmanTX and @DIY-HP-LED came by their opinions that Russia had a hand in Iran-backed Hamas's attack on Israel? An Israeli official spoke out sternly to Russia about "taking note" over Russia's support for Hamas but as far as I can tell there is no evidence that Russia had a role in the attack. Yes, Russia is seeking whatever advantage it can get out of the situation. Still, though, they aren't eager to make an enemy out of Israel right now.

foreignpolicy.com

Where Does Russia Stand on the Israel-Hamas War?

Moscow may temporarily profit from the West’s focus on the Middle East, but navigating its ties in the region will be tricky.
foreignpolicy.com foreignpolicy.com
.

Over the years, some Russian-made weapons—such as anti-tank and shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles— have made their way into Gaza, likely via Iran. But so far, there is no clear evidence that Russia supported Hamas in planning or executing its surprise attack on Israel.

But that does not mean that Russia is a nonentity in this latest Israel-Hamas conflict. Since launching its full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Moscow has dramatically deepened its cooperation with Iran. In return for Iranian combat drones and other military gear, Russia has stepped up its defense support for Tehran, including—as the United States fears—with assistance for its missile and space-launched vehicle programs. There has been a flurry of Iranian-Russian military engagement, including Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu’s tour of an arms exhibition in Tehran last month.
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Here is the video in question, he is a powerful member of Bebe's party and if his opinion is held by the government...

Printer posted it on the war thread.

It was started where the guy made his comments on RT, what do you think?

 
printer

printer

Well-Known Member
bursto said:
hamas gave poo tin a birthday present, must be good pals then
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I only read a number of paragraphs before I decided to not waste my time. Attack to coincide with Putin's birthday? I guess if you do not thing local history of the conflict had no bearing on the fight. On the weapons, saw a vid from Israel explaining they were standard fair of older equipment from the black market. Nothing shows that Russia had any more a part in things than normal.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
Here is the video in question, he is a powerful member of Bebe's party and if his opinion is held by the government...

Printer posted it on the war thread.

It was started where the guy made his comments on RT, what do you think?

Click to expand...
That is not evidence that Russia played a role in the massacre. I'm guessing the Likud official saw something that convinced him that Russia gave more than just bullets to Hamas through Iran. I don't know what that was. Training, perhaps? If this is what it takes to get Israel's government to ally with NATO on Russian aggression against the West then I'm for it but I hope cooler heads will prevail inside of Israel.

This is a tinderbox. Russia has strong ties with Turkey, Iran, Syria and other countries in the Middle East.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
That is not evidence that Russia played a role in the massacre. I'm guessing the Likud official saw something that convinced him that Russia gave more than just bullets to Hamas through Iran. I don't know what that was. Training, perhaps? If this is what it takes to get Israel's government to ally with NATO on Russian aggression against the West then I'm for it but I hope cooler heads will prevail inside of Israel.

This is a tinderbox. Russia has strong ties with Turkey, Iran, Syria and other countries in the Middle East.
Click to expand...
No, it is not evidence of a policy change by Israel, just of one very angry member of the governing party, but it could be indictive of an attitude in the government. Hamas websites are hosted in Moscow and money channeled through their banks, they tried to pull an information operation with Hamas using captured weapons from Ukraine shortly after the attack began with Hamas thanking Ukraine for the weapons, etc. Russians or Wagner trained them too and we don't know what other intelligence they have.

Russia has been greatly weakened militarily, economically and diplomatically as the war in Ukraine wears away their legacy of soviet arms and military power in general. Israel's reaction will factor this in too, Russia looks finished as a geopolitical factor in the Caucuses and central Asia, much less the middle east by the time Ukraine is done with them. They should stay screwed for a long time too and unable to rebuild their military power or build modern weapons systems while under sanctions.
 
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