Hamas offensive against Israel

cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
CCGNZ said:
I'm also sickened by the BLUNT force used by Israel,makes no sense to scatter more seeds of hate on all these Palestinian children for Israel. Smacks of Netanyahu trying to provoke a endless war to delay his reckoning.I'm not a expert on the Jewish history but it seems to me it was a noble idea to create a state for the Jews whose oppression goes back centuries. That said solving one problem created another (displacement of Palestinians). Can't the Israelis see that they themselves have become the Romans who oppressed them. To throw salt in the wounds w/illegal settlements is ridiculous,Netanyahu played Hamas off the Palestinian Authority specifically to derail any 2 state solution. While I admire much about Israel their far right gov. needs to go and a moderate gov. needs to replace it and negotiate a 2 state solution. The Palestinians also need representation that accepts an Israeli state. Between all the rich Gulf states (who also despise Iran) and the US, pressure has to be exerted on all sides to finally fix this region. They all have to get over the fact that religious zealotry and embracing the past hatreds will only lead to a apocalyptic outcome for all involved.
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Addressing your last sentence “that’s the hard part.”

Comparing to the Republican faction of dominionists, their cockeyed theology not merely talks about the end times, they’re actively trying to speed the arrival of the rapture.

They believe that changing the US into a theocracy and making their most hateful parodies of moral conduct law will bring the end of the physical world faster (which is some mind-blowing arrogance if you ask me.)

With the other two Abrahamic religions playing a major role in the motives of the combatants, and with a belief in end times (and how to advance them) part of both, many would classify your otherwise reasonable idea as heretical or worse.

Even without religion, the players have a hardbitten attitude of “so long as my side wins big” which scuttles ambitions of a peaceful and pluralistic settlement. Look at the amazing durability of grievances in states where it is commonplace to see someone flying the stars&bars.
 
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Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
CANON_Grow said:
We see what is happening to the University Presidents' because of they got caught in the game of gotcha by Elise Stefanik; although their job doesn't allow them to have those kind of slip ups and getting axed for it is justified because that comes with being at the top. Blacklisting students that signed something they may not have fully understood or didn't feel comfortable going against what their peers were doing, or whatever other reason - is getting into really uncomfortable territory. Anyone that has had to deal with university/college students on a regular basis understands you are dealing with... minds that are still figuring out how the world works (that's the nicest way I can say it). This is already happening which is why it is concerning.

Billionaires like Bill Ackman and Elon Musk already get an outsized influence on how society acts, not sure they should be allowed to control via employment conditions what any of their employees discuss if it is not on company time and has nothing to do with the company they are employed by. I'm sure it won't be long before the cost of determining anyone's full online presence with no anonymity becomes so inexpensive that it will be a standard hiring procedure, and/or HR procedure before an employee review, salary negotiation, etc. Protecting brand value is one thing, but this is so much bigger than that IMHO.
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I can't say much about Ackman or what's going on with the universities because I haven't followed that much. Regarding Musk, he's suffering from exactly what corporate policies are designed to protect a company from. His big fat mouth has given offense to just about everybody, tarnishing any brand value he added. Tesla isn't doing well and xhitter. $20B at least in lost value due to his xhitty mouth and lack of control of the xhit said on xhitter is probably killing the business and his entire $40B investment. Public opinion has always mattered. Maybe more so than ever before. Which is why fraudsters of every stripe are investing in ways to use dis-information bots. It's why China is enforcing a near ban on anything the powerful don't want said. It's why Musk took over xhitter and is holding onto it even though he's getting burned. So, the voice of social media is a mess and does harm but is not an altogether force for bad either.

Should a company put a muzzle on its employees speech outside of work? To some extent, maybe they should, as long as it's spelled out in a policy and enforced the same throughout the company. A Jew or Muslim working for a manager who has come out and said in public that they want to hang all Jews or Muslims would have good reason to feel they were unsafe at work. That manager should be removed from that responsibility and I'd hope a company has a policy saying so. As was pointed out in posts above, companies have always used this power against employees, sometimes circumventing the law by firing somebody for reasons other than their bias or unlawful treatment of people who have protections under the law that are hard to prove were violated. But there is a check on this that also comes from social media.

This isn't an unfettered power allowing companies to do whatever they want. Social media has the power to put the elite in check and as in Musk's case, it's showing just how much it can bite.
 
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CANON_Grow

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I can't say much about Ackman or what's going on with the universities because I haven't followed that much. Regarding Musk, he's suffering from exactly what corporate policies are designed to protect a company from. His big fat mouth has given offense to just about everybody, tarnishing any brand value he added. Tesla isn't doing well and xhitter. $20B at least in lost value due to his xhitty mouth and lack of control of the xhit said on xhitter is probably killing the business and his entire $40B investment. Public opinion has always mattered. Maybe more so than ever before. Which is why fraudsters of every stripe are investing in ways to use dis-information bots. It's why China is enforcing a near ban on anything the powerful don't want said. It's why Musk took over xhitter and is holding onto it even though he's getting burned. So, the voice of social media is a mess and does harm but is not an altogether force for bad either.

Should a company put a muzzle on its employees speech outside of work? To some extent, maybe they should, as long as it's spelled out in a policy and enforced the same throughout the company. A Jew or Muslim working for a manager who has come out and said in public that they want to hang all Jews or Muslims would have good reason to feel they were unsafe at work. That manager should be removed from that responsibility and I'd hope a company has a policy saying so. As was pointed out in posts above, companies have always used this power against employees, sometimes circumventing the law by firing somebody for reasons other than their bias or unlawful treatment of people who have protections under the law that are hard to prove were violated. But there is a check on this that also comes from social media.

This isn't an unfettered power allowing companies to do whatever they want. Social media has the power to put the elite in check and as in Musk's case, it's showing just how much it can bite.
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The example you used of the manager is how I hope we all would think companies should use policy so that is beneficial. Examples like that are pretty clear cut in what is right or wrong, Ackman and the universities is not so clear cut. Linking to article to show is not off topic and a brief synopsis of what I'm thinking about:

www.independent.co.uk

Why a billionaire set out to topple the heads of America’s top schools

The hedge-fund billionaire has allied with right-wing activists and Republicans in Congress to pressure universities, but some students and faculty say he’s gone too far, Josh Marcus reports
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk

You mentioned how it sounds when white people tell black people All Lives Matter and I generally agree that it's ignorant, but it all depends on context of why it was being said. If a white person said it in a conversation to support the view that there is unfair treatment of another minority group and is acknowledging that group faces similar injustice, that's not being ignorant in my eyes (not the words I would personally choose, but hopefully that illustrates the point). The issue with the Ackman and the universities is similar, at no time did the Presidents' support antisemitism or other hateful rhetoric. In my most charitable opinion, Bill Ackman is used to bullying people to get his way and doesn't like the fact these people didn't just do as he said. I believe there is more to him acting the way he did, because it does not square with this:

In his post, Ackman again defended Musk, saying the X owner did not have "antisemitic intent." He singled out Disney CEO Bob Iger for caving to public pressure to pull ads from X, and added it was unfair for advertisers to boycott X despite rival platforms TikTok, Facebook, and Instagram also containing antisemitic content.
www.businessinsider.com

Bill Ackman thinks we should all be grateful Elon Musk bought Twitter

In a lengthy post on X, billionaire investor Bill Ackman laid out his view that "Earth is fortunate" Elon Musk owns the platform once called Twitter.
www.businessinsider.com www.businessinsider.com

To finish my thoughts on it, I guess I am concerned free speech is becoming more multi-tiered than ever before, and the majority of the people that will be in a position to abuse it are exactly the people that will. Pointing to what is happening in China should be the big red light flashing to everyone as to where this is likely to go.
 
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CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
As the images from Gaza ( destruction,suffering)are shown every night,I increasingly see the folly of Israel's approach. Just as the US squandered the initial outporing of goodwill post 9/11, Israel has done the same even after being warned by the US of the parallels. Rubble everywhere reeks of indiscriminate bombing as complete blocks are leveled. I believe about 3K Hamas fighters were involved in the heinous initial attack and the complete Hamas structure is 30-40 K fighters. The ratio of 33K to 2.2 million occupants in Gaza is basically 1 Hamas fighter for 65 civilians,and this is the Israeli response. This level of carnage and destruction and suffering is not a measurable response despite the utter shocking inhumanity of the Hamas attack on 10/7. The killing of Israeli hostages waving a white flag highlights that Israel has a shoot and ask questions later policy in Gaza as well. Had Israel reacted w/some precision airstrikes and then proceed to let their intel. services exact revenge in the cool calculated way they are famous for they'd be seen as a constrained,rational state that was victimized. Instead they responded completely out of proportion and world opinion is now against them,what a blunder,and now Netanyahu's far right gov. has blatantly stated that they are totally against a 2 state solution in addition to sowing the seeds of Israeli hatred upon over a million Palestinian children for another generation of violence. Yes,Jews needed a sovereign state,but a whole people were displaced in the process,reason and humility must prevail in Israel just as they seek the same from others regarding their plight. Otherwise they will be portrayed in the same light as those who once oppressed them.
 
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CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
I don't know what the risks are or if this is possible,but seeing the suffering in Gaza,my memory shot back to the Berlin airlift. Can't the US tell the Israelis that the US will conduct a humanitarian airlift mission over Gaza. WE have the capability to drop lifesaving supplies of food,medicine,winter clothing,water and sanitary supplies.This would go a long way to the Arab world seeing the US in a new light as well as not hurting the Israelis in any way,unless they're against hapless civilians being given some form of comfort and sustinance.I know Israel can make the airspace safe,but am unsure of the altitude such a mission would be conducted at or the risk from Hamas AA or ManPads. Have to believe such an effort would be a coup for the Biden adm. and the US in general.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
CCGNZ said:
I don't know what the risks are or if this is possible,but seeing the suffering in Gaza,my memory shot back to the Berlin airlift. Can't the US tell the Israelis that the US will conduct a humanitarian airlift mission over Gaza. WE have the capability to drop lifesaving supplies of food,medicine,winter clothing,water and sanitary supplies.This would go a long way to the Arab world seeing the US in a new light as well as not hurting the Israelis in any way,unless they're against hapless civilians being given some form of comfort and sustinance.I know Israel can make the airspace safe,but am unsure of the altitude such a mission would be conducted at or the risk from Hamas AA or ManPads. Have to believe such an effort would be a coup for the Biden adm. and the US in general.
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Manpads, per Wiki:

MANPADS generally have a target detection range of about 10 km (6 mi) and an engagement range of about 6 km (4 mi), so aircraft flying at 6,100 metres (20,000 ft) or higher are relatively safe.

As for triple A, they use radar. US is the world class in antiradiation strike capability.

I think you have a good idea that is technically feasible.
 
BudmanTX

BudmanTX

Well-Known Member
Cannasaurus Rex

Cannasaurus Rex

Well-Known Member
Never seen so many historical 'interpretations' used to legitimize an internationally acknowleged terrorist organizations' attack. Y'all are confusing 'Guilty with an explanation' to 'innocence', and Equating Palestinians to Hamas is like equating Canada to the FLQ..

Gaza was created by Isreal in a much argued 'Land for Peace' deal that the Palestinians augered with the rest of the world. But I'm sure Hamas didn't even exist at the time.

Looking at our university and colleges UNDESPUTABLE encouragement of public singing of 'Kill the Jews.'
, while our PM who called some truckers parade 'terrorists' says "Oppression legitimizes violence", are big problems for me.
Add the trending woke re-defining of "oppression",, which includes choosing not to buy Bud Light, and using . 'Sir' or 'Ma'am'., and we can see what happens here....


Besides all this Hatfield and McCoy arguements, I don't believe Hamas could attack unchecked for so long without a response. If you don't know what the border to gaza looks like, just google earth it...very similar and more heavily guarded than the DMZ in Korea....This thing is all smoke and mirrors, perhaps at the encouragement of the Isreali and Palestinian gov'ts??????? A mouse can't leave Gaza without Israel knowing, WTF?
 
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CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
Manpads, per Wiki:

MANPADS generally have a target detection range of about 10 km (6 mi) and an engagement range of about 6 km (4 mi), so aircraft flying at 6,100 metres (20,000 ft) or higher are relatively safe.

As for triple A, they use radar. US is the world class in antiradiation strike capability.

I think you have a good idea that is technically feasible.
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I neglected to mention that this is airdropped,so no landing is needed,just thousands of parachuted supplies,the Israelis don't have to inspect (we're not going to screw them) any of this.Just a massive airdrop of desperately needed supplies to prevent a humanitarian disaster,all the while bolstering US image and giving the national media a new narrative and the Biden adm. some sorely needed props,a win/win IMO
Cannasaurus Rex said:
Never seen so many historical 'interpretations' used to legitimize an internationally acknowleged terrorist organizations' attack. Y'all are confusing 'Guilty with an explanation' to 'innocence', and Equating Palestinians to Hamas is like equating Canada to the FLQ..

Gaza was created by Isreal in a much argued 'Land for Peace' deal that the Palestinians augered with the rest of the world. But I'm sure Hamas didn't even exist at the time.

Looking at our university and colleges UNDESPUTABLE encouragement of public singing of 'Kill the Jews.'
, while our PM who called some truckers parade 'terrorists' says "Oppression legitimizes violence", are big problems for me.
Add the trending woke re-defining of "oppression",, which includes choosing not to buy Bud Light, and using . 'Sir' or 'Ma'am'., and we can see what happens here....


Besides all this Hatfield and McCoy arguements, I don't believe Hamas could attack unchecked for so long without a response. If you don't know what the border to gaza looks like, just google earth it...very similar and more heavily guarded than the DMZ in Korea....This thing is all smoke and mirrors, perhaps at the encouragement of the Isreali and Palestinian gov'ts??????? A mouse can't leave Gaza without Israel knowing, WTF?
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Israel was politically in chaos,it was a holiday in Israel,intel. agencies were ignored by Netanyahu,any coming attacks were centered on Hezbollah in the north,and Israel 's reliance on the wall and technology in place of manpower all conspired to the success of the attack. How a country like Israel didn't at least have a rapid response force on 24 hr. readiness is confounding though and many investigations are looming. I'm horrified at the blunt bombing campaign and lack of precision,Israel has tarnished itself in this regard,I've previously posted that the US could really gain props w/ a huge humanitarian air drop of food,sanitaries,medicine and medical supplies,winter clothing etc.. Hamas has virtually no air defense(haven't heard of any shootdowns) and if Israel doesn't trust the US as far as inspections go, to bad,we've already taken flack we don't need w/your hammer to kill a mosquito operation.
 
Cannasaurus Rex

Cannasaurus Rex

Well-Known Member
CCGNZ said:
is confounding
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Yep
CCGNZ said:
I'm horrified at the blunt bombing campaign and lack of precision, Israel has tarnished itself in this regard, I've previously posted that the US could really gain props w/ a huge humanitarian air drop of food, sanitaries, medicine and medical supplies, winter clothing etc.. Hamas has virtually no air defense(haven't heard of any shootdowns) and if Israel doesn't trust the US as far as inspections go, to bad, we've already taken flack we don't need w/your hammer to kill a mosquito operation.
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Stop defining Hamas, and hezbollah as the Gazan or Palestinian people when arguing oppression by Israel. Would be like saying all Canadians are defined as 'Right wing trolls'.
. Heck even Jewish factions in post ww2 'British Palestine' were at war with Britian (Modern Israels creator).
So lets look at actions today instead of changing or justifying the past, to explain why we need to keep shooting... that would be good.
Perhaps looking at the IRA vs. anyone of yesterday being solved mostly from within. Sein Fein anyone????? Nope, still Zombies, right Bono?
I'm sure Jews have some experience how to root out 'troublemakers' or terrorists from a population within their own country hmm.
 
Cannasaurus Rex

Cannasaurus Rex

Well-Known Member
Someone wrote on a politics thread here that 'the desire to get rid of rascism' would be to naturally breed a homogeneous population 200 years from now (everyone will be brown). Futhermore added "then we can (xxx) religion,if it's still a problem"
The presumption that seems to be pushed by friendly well-meaning citizens, often includes approval of Nazi and Lennonist methods of operation, to get a nice friendly planet.
I will say that I am not insulting attacking a person, just flawed reasoning influenced by todays perspective. Yes racial homogeneity was Hitlers end goal and religion is the enemy of Communist ideology.
Those roads to peace, I'm not so keen on.
Thank my lucky stars I live next door to America....(and don't live there).
 
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CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
Cannasaurus Rex said:
Yep

Stop defining Hamas, and hezbollah as the Gazan or Palestinian people when arguing oppression by Israel. Would be like saying all Canadians are defined as 'Right wing trolls'.
. Heck even Jewish factions in post ww2 'British Palestine' were at war with Britian (Modern Israels creator).
So lets look at actions today instead of changing or justifying the past, to explain why we need to keep shooting... that would be good.
Perhaps looking at the IRA vs. anyone of yesterday being solved mostly from within. Sein Fein anyone????? Nope, still Zombies, right Bono?
I'm sure Jews have some experience how to root out 'troublemakers' or terrorists from a population within their own country hmm.
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Woah,I didn't say anything about oppression,Israel has a right to retaliate vs. Hamas,just too many innocent civilians killed by a operation I'd have thought would be more precise,I'm not a kid at Harvard waving Anti-Semite posters and respect Israel,that said I don't understand the rambling analogies. The airlift proposal I mentioned pretty clearly shows that I know the diff. between Hamas/Palestinian civilians
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Cannasaurus Rex said:
Someone wrote on a politics thread here that 'the desire to get rid of rascism' would be to naturally breed a homogeneous population 200 years from now (everyone will be brown). Futhermore added "then we can (xxx) religion,if it's still a problem"
The presumption that seems to be pushed by friendly well-meaning citizens, often includes approval of Nazi and Lennonist methods of operation, to get a nice friendly planet.
I will say that I am not insulting attacking a person, just flawed reasoning influenced by todays perspective. Yes racial homogeneity was Hitlers end goal and religion is the enemy of Communist ideology.
Those roads to peace, I'm not so keen on.
Thank my lucky stars I live next door to America....(and don't live there).
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Hitler wanted a pure German race, which is nothing like what that user suggested in the other thread. Thus a false equivalence. The rest of your post is non sequitur and guilt by association; from the fact religion is the enemy of communism does not follow that anyone who opposes religion is communist. Hitler loved dogs too, what does that tell you about other dog owners… exactly, absolutely nothing.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
CCGNZ said:
Woah,I didn't say anything about oppression,Israel has a right to retaliate vs. Hamas,just too many innocent civilians killed by a operation I'd have thought would be more precise,I'm not a kid at Harvard waving Anti-Semite posters and respect Israel,that said I don't understand the rambling analogies. The airlift proposal I mentioned pretty clearly shows that I know the diff. between Hamas/Palestinian civilians
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Perhaps the best bit about a hundred thousand parachutes of food, water, medical supplies is that Hamas can only intercept a small amount. They derive much of their power from having a chokehold on the distribution of the necessities. Lifesaving stuff from the skies interrupts regular people needing Hamas. It changes the political equation.
 
BudmanTX

BudmanTX

Well-Known Member
CCGNZ said:
I don't know what the risks are or if this is possible,but seeing the suffering in Gaza,my memory shot back to the Berlin airlift. Can't the US tell the Israelis that the US will conduct a humanitarian airlift mission over Gaza. WE have the capability to drop lifesaving supplies of food,medicine,winter clothing,water and sanitary supplies.This would go a long way to the Arab world seeing the US in a new light as well as not hurting the Israelis in any way,unless they're against hapless civilians being given some form of comfort and sustinance.I know Israel can make the airspace safe,but am unsure of the altitude such a mission would be conducted at or the risk from Hamas AA or ManPads. Have to believe such an effort would be a coup for the Biden adm. and the US in general.
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Nice idea. U know the US does have giant medical ships running around. Maybe they can plant one off the coast of Gaza, use a beach to bring in supplies, maybe put a medical facility or something...
 
CANON_Grow

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
CCGNZ said:
I don't know what the risks are or if this is possible,but seeing the suffering in Gaza,my memory shot back to the Berlin airlift. Can't the US tell the Israelis that the US will conduct a humanitarian airlift mission over Gaza. WE have the capability to drop lifesaving supplies of food,medicine,winter clothing,water and sanitary supplies.This would go a long way to the Arab world seeing the US in a new light as well as not hurting the Israelis in any way,unless they're against hapless civilians being given some form of comfort and sustinance.I know Israel can make the airspace safe,but am unsure of the altitude such a mission would be conducted at or the risk from Hamas AA or ManPads. Have to believe such an effort would be a coup for the Biden adm. and the US in general.
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What actions or evidence would you point to that indicates the current government of Israel would be okay with providing that aid? This war is going exactly how the Israeli government said it would, so why would the current Israeli government would be okay with providing their enemy with comfort or aid? They shut off the water supply in the beginning, does anyone think it was because of security concerns?
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
CANON_Grow said:
What actions or evidence would you point to that indicates the current government of Israel would be okay with providing that aid? This war is going exactly how the Israeli government said it would, so why would the current Israeli government would be okay with providing their enemy with comfort or aid? They shut off the water supply in the beginning, does anyone think it was because of security concerns?
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You highlight the problem. To Israel’s current leaders, nonIsraelis in Gaza are The Problem. They do not discriminate between Hamas and ordinary Palestinians.

That is fascism at its most genocidally direct.

I think Hamas are terrorist scum.

However our firm ally in the region is behaving no better.

In this instance, a US aid expedition would be a morally sound choice. And to Hell with official Israeli displeasure.
 
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CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
CANON_Grow said:
What actions or evidence would you point to that indicates the current government of Israel would be okay with providing that aid? This war is going exactly how the Israeli government said it would, so why would the current Israeli government would be okay with providing their enemy with comfort or aid? They shut off the water supply in the beginning, does anyone think it was because of security concerns?
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Good point,but we have serious leverage over Israel,and what premise do the Israeli's have to object,they think we'd screw them giving something that really helps Hamas?, we'd be dropping strictly humanitarian aid,so if Hamas grabbed a couple pallets of food or medical supplies,or whatever,BIG DEAL,it's not going to effect the Isreal wiping them out,you suggest that Israel would think we'd give Hamas stingers or something,really,we are Israels most trusted ally,and from what I see Hamas is confined extremely and in tiny pockets,so I think helping out all the civilians is a noble idea, I don't think Israel's pop. is for killing everybody in Gaza,the Netanyahu govt.? ,I'm not so sure.
 
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CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
Perhaps the best bit about a hundred thousand parachutes of food, water, medical supplies is that Hamas can only intercept a small amount. They derive much of their power from having a chokehold on the distribution of the necessities. Lifesaving stuff from the skies interrupts regular people needing Hamas. It changes the political equation.
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I was under the impression that Hamas is squeezed,in small pockets,I think by satellite imagery we'd know where to drop in the event the Israelis aren't keen on providing info,.I mean at this point Israel has pretty solid control,but yeah there is some risk,damn the way luck is going we'd have a crash or who knows what else,but the optics are looking bad for Israel and the US is catching flack as well. It'd be the right thing to do,a large portion of these people are just reg. people just trying to live from what I see. I'm of the mind that if these people aren't helped out SOON,this is going to be seen as a level of cruelty that will have the words "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" being tossed around in the world opinion narrative.
 
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