Has anybody read Antonin Scalia's latest book, "Reading Law"?

desert dude

Well-Known Member
I bought it. Yep, I spent $50 to buy Antonin's book. I agree with Scalia's judicial philosophy: textualism, i.e. the text of the law IS the law, the constitution is not alive, it is "dead, dead, dead, dead"!

Late the haters now join in.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
I laugh and laugh at those who claim that the Constitution is dead. This is an impossibllity as the Constitution is written in the English language. The only dead languages are those that are spoken by no one - usually because all of those who once spoke it are dead.

The english language is very much a living thing. If one creates a framework with a living thing, then, by virtue of that aliveness, the framework itself is also alive. Scalia may know the law, but he doesn't know language if he claims that the Constitution is dead.
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
I laugh and laugh at those who claim that the Constitution is dead. This is an impossibllity as the Constitution is written in the English language. The only dead languages are those that are spoken by no one - usually because all of those who once spoke it are dead.

The english language is very much a living thing. If one creates a framework with a living thing, then, by virtue of that aliveness, the framework itself is also alive. Scalia may know the law, but he doesn't know language if he claims that the Constitution is dead.
Scalia had a coauthor, Bryan Garner, a preeminent lexicographer. I think Mr. Garner knows a thing or two about language. If the constitution is "alive" and subject to the changing whims of whatever is popular at the moment then we might as well not have a constitution, or any written law, at all.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Scalia had a coauthor, Bryan Garner, a preeminent lexicographer. I think Mr. Garner knows a thing or two about language. If the constitution is "alive" and subject to the changing whims of whatever is popular at the moment then we might as well not have a constitution, or any written law, at all.
Semantic and philosophical drift is a real problem for the authors of codices. Is the amendment process enough to adjust the document to stay in keeping with language's and society's changes? cn
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
Semantic and philosophical drift is a real problem for the authors of codices. Is the amendment process enough to adjust the document to stay in keeping with language's and society's changes? cn
Yes. That is exactly what the constitutional amendment process is for. Would you rather that Scalia or Sottomayor unilaterally amend the constitution by interpreting "yes" to mean "no", or would you prefer to live in a representative democracy?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Yes. That is exactly what the constitutional amendment process is for. Would you rather that Scalia or Sottomayor unilaterally amend the constitution by interpreting "yes" to mean "no", or would you prefer to live in a representative democracy?
The only alternative I could see would be to hold occasional constitutional conventions, but I recoil from that. Too much danger bundled with the opportunity.

I, for one, would like to see the 2nd Amendment rewritten with more modern and specific language, to wit:
"The right of the citizen to own, possess, carry, operate, buy, sell, gift and bequeath any firearm and its ammunition shall not be infringed." But how to get this done? cn
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Scalia had a coauthor, Bryan Garner, a preeminent lexicographer. I think Mr. Garner knows a thing or two about language. If the constitution is "alive" and subject to the changing whims of whatever is popular at the moment then we might as well not have a constitution, or any written law, at all.
A lexicographer is someone who is skilled at the practice of creating dictionaries. Language is far more than a compilation of the spelling and meaning of words. Language is also syntactical, cultural - and..... temporal. The mistake you make is in thinking that a Constitution must not be alive because it is subject to "popular whims". There is a middle ground. If what you say is true, then the Constitution would only be fit to be the governing document of a culture that stopped existing some 300 years ago. Thomas believes that we should actually,through the proper examination of the author's perceptions and state of mind, project ourselves back in time in order to divine the meaning and intent of a particular passage of the document.

What happens when Scalia's world is forced upon the rest of us is that we are all compelled to live in that 300 year old culture. The founders may have intended that but I don't think so.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Yes. That is exactly what the constitutional amendment process is for. Would you rather that Scalia or Sottomayor unilaterally amend the constitution by interpreting "yes" to mean "no", or would you prefer to live in a representative democracy?
It will be some time before a legal document is written where yes, in some future time, "means" no. Now I am aware that culturaly this can happen - in the 80's Bad meant good but surely you aren't refering to that sort of thing.

It might be helpful if you define what you mean by a "living" document as opposed to a "dead" one.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
The Constitution was ratified 225 years ago, not 300. Society evolved fast in those 75 years ... and the next 25 would also be breakneck in historians' eyes. I'm saying the exaggeration is not without editorial consequence. cn
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
The only alternative I could see would be to hold occasional constitutional conventions, but I recoil from that. Too much danger bundled with the opportunity.

I, for one, would like to see the 2nd Amendment rewritten with more modern and specific language, to wit:
"The right of the citizen to own, possess, carry, operate, buy, sell, gift and bequeath any firearm and its ammunition shall not be infringed." But how to get this done? cn

This is a point sorely made. I have complained about this amendment and its wording for a long time. The gun toting right simply ignore the first part of that amendment and claim that it has no relevence but in so doing, don't they interpret the document? So, is the reading of the document what brings it to "life"? or was it already alive to begin with? furthermore, is the very possibility for amendment something that brings life to the laws? That is, once an amendment is added, does the amendment die? Are we simply killing each new addition shortly after it is apended?
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
The Constitution was ratified 225 years ago, not 300. Society evolved fast in those 75 years ... and the next 25 would also be breakneck in historians' eyes. I'm saying the exaggeration is not without editorial consequence. cn
Rounding error. exaggeration does indeed have its consequences. Forgive me.
 

gagekko

Well-Known Member
I am not a Constitution "theorist", I am a realist, the constitution has been dead for quite some time now (about 1913). Anyone that can't accept it is in denial.
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
A lexicographer is someone who is skilled at the practice of creating dictionaries. Language is far more than a compilation of the spelling and meaning of words. Language is also syntactical, cultural - and..... temporal. The mistake you make is in thinking that a Constitution must not be alive because it is subject to "popular whims". There is a middle ground. If what you say is true, then the Constitution would only be fit to be the governing document of a culture that stopped existing some 300 years ago. Thomas believes that we should actually,through the proper examination of the author's perceptions and state of mind, project ourselves back in time in order to divine the meaning and intent of a particular passage of the document.

What happens when Scalia's world is forced upon the rest of us is that we are all compelled to live in that 300 year old culture. The founders may have intended that but I don't think so.
Not true at all. There is a constitutional mechanism, amendment, to change a constitution that is no longer working, or desirable.

Let me give you an example of the perils of a "living" constitution, the commerce clause: "[The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes". "Among the several states" has been reinterpreted to mean "within every state". This "living constitution" has led to an encroachment of federal power to now, quite literally regulate anything the federal government wants. The reinterpretation of the commerce clause is the legal heart of the war on drugs. The misinterpretation of the commerce clause is the basis of the Raich decision. You can rightly lay the blame for the drug war at the feet of the "living constitution" disciples.

Roe V Wade is another example of an extra-constitutional reading of the law. Personally, I happen to like the right to choose an abortion (within limits, see the other thread), but that does not change the fact that the Roe decision is insupportable from a legal perspective.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
I am not a Constitution "theorist", I am a realist, the constitution has been dead for quite some time now (about 1913). Anyone that can't accept it is in denial.
No, your interpretation of what the document meant or means is dead.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
This is a point sorely made. I have complained about this amendment and its wording for a long time. The gun toting right simply ignore the first part of that amendment and claim that it has no relevence but in so doing, don't they interpret the document? So, is the reading of the document what brings it to "life"? or was it already alive to begin with? furthermore, is the very possibility for amendment something that brings life to the laws? That is, once an amendment is added, does the amendment die? Are we simply killing each new addition shortly after it is apended?
The first part of the amendment provided a reason, and it is precisely there that the drift of language is at its most visible. Back then "well-regulated" meant "able to hit the target". Trouble is, more modern scholars with agendas have been advancing the idea that the preamble of the amendment is a condition, one that restricts the right to "well-regulated" i. e. official militia. Imo it's best to leave out the "justification" bit, as it only provides a fulcrum for the crowbar crew. cn
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Not true at all. There is a constitutional mechanism, amendment, to change a constitution that is no longer working, or desirable.

Let me give you an example of the perils of a "living" constitution, the commerce clause: "[The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes". "Among the several states" has been reinterpreted to mean "within every state". This "living constitution" has led to an encroachment of federal power to now, quite literally regulate anything the federal government wants. The reinterpretation of the commerce clause is the legal heart of the war on drugs. The misinterpretation of the commerce clause is the basis of the Raich decision. You can rightly lay the blame for the drug war at the feet of the "living constitution" disciples.

Roe V Wade is another example of an extra-constitutional reading of the law. Personally, I happen to like the right to choose an abortion (within limits, see the other thread), but that does not change the fact that the Roe decision is insupportable from a legal perspective.
What is living then, according to your statement, is the interpretation. How is that any different really? We all operate under the believe that our understanding of the document is all that really matters. If that is the case, then it makes no difference if the document is alive or dead, it is the meaning we take away that has any relvence. There are examples of the document that provide for our changing morals and ethics. "cruel and unusual punishment" seems worded to accomodate an evolving society - now is that prase dead? As we look at it I begin to lose the concept of dead vs alive.
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
The first part of the amendment provided a reason, and it is precisely there that the drift of language is at its most visible. Back then "well-regulated" meant "able to hit the target". Trouble is, more modern scholars with agendas have been advancing the idea that the amendment really restricts the right to "well-regulated" i. e. official militia. Imo it's best to leave out the "justification" bit, as it only provides a fulcrum for the crowbar crew. cn
I agree with you on this one, Bear. If it within my power, I would simply strike the first clause and rewrite 2A to read as you posted earlier. What the "living constitutionalists" tried desperately to do was to get 2A to mean: "the citizen has NO right to keep and bear arms", and I am happy to say they failed.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
The first part of the amendment provided a reason, and it is precisely there that the drift of language is at its most visible. Back then "well-regulated" meant "able to hit the target". Trouble is, more modern scholars with agendas have been advancing the idea that the amendment really restricts the right to "well-regulated" i. e. official militia. Imo it's best to leave out the "justification" bit, as it only provides a fulcrum for the crowbar crew. cn
There are no other examples of an "explaination" in the Constitution. If it is explainatory only, why here alone and not in some of the less self explainatory portions? What you are saying is that as our popular understanding of words change, the document grows more and more divorced from our current cultural reality. Some, like bill of attainder are all but lost on modern society. So maybe the document is dead.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
I agree with you on this one, Bear. If it within my power, I would simply strike the first clause and rewrite 2A to read as you posted earlier. What the "living constitutionalists" tried desperately to do was to get 2A to mean: "the citizen has NO right to keep and bear arms", and I am happy to say they failed.
But suppose that is exactly what they meant?
 
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