Health Care.... The myth... and reality.

CrackerJax said:

Okay, there seems to be a lot of misinformation out there about health care, so I am here to help.

President Obama just gave his home run speech for health care last week, and no one thought it was a winner of a speech, but he did make some very interesting statements and claims.

I hope this helps those out there with objective minds. Don't be fooled!!!

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Here's where I stopped reading. You fell prey to logical fallacy, disregarding and alienating your audience. You either assume (1) that we're stupid enough to believe your illogical claims ('no one' is never acceptable in debate) or (2) that you simply don't care for logic or debate. Either way, everything following your ridiculous claim is defunct - product of weak reasoning and faulty foundations.

As usual, well done cracker . Way to alienate your audience. You're lack of awareness is troubling.

doobnVA said:

I've seen you post articles, and you post them as what they are: articles from another source.



"I am going to go through the brunt of his speech and give the reality behind what he says." - CrackerJax

Clearly he is attempting to pass this off as his own writing

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Yeah, you nailed it! The thing is, he's been doing this for a while now. But it is common knowledge - he pastes articles and passes them off as his.

doobnVA said:

I don't mind long posts, as long as they are formatted and aren't a solidwalloftext.

That follow-up doesn't really excuse their lack of fact checking before running the original article. What they are basically saying is Mr. Hawking received care, but it wasn't exceptional care until he became famous so that somehow justifies the statement they made in the first article.

Replace "famous" with "rich", and they just described the health care system in the US (except in the UK, everyone receives treatment, even if it's unexceptional).

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One... they weren't wrong. The concept is true enough and a sad state of affairs in Britain. Their system is broken and going broke.
Our system is not broken, but Obama surely intends to make it broke.

I am a Canadian and we have free health care up here.

I cannot beleive that the US doesn't have universal health care. I think that it is esential for any government to provide free health care to their citizens. Everyone deserves the right to free health care, and money shouldn't dictate how much care you are caplible of receiving. All insurance companies are scammers, and thier sole purpose is to maximize profits; in short, that means less care. And if you don't have insurance, your fucked.

I have never paid for any broken bone, stitch, or surgery that I have ever had. I have never been denied a test or a medication because my insurance doesn't cover it. We do have a 13% sales tax, and income tax levels in the 20% (30% if you make more than 200K). But it is a nice feeling knowing that some of my money is being used to help my neighbour if they fall ill, and vice versa. We also have alot of other government programs and assistance avalible for people who need it.

Cuba has better health care than you guys. WTF is that about.

A country's true merit doesn't come from how they treat their rich, but on how they treat their poor.

I can believe we don't have it.
We have shot it down several times.
Its unconstitutional.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204518504574416623109362480.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Not to mention we are already in the hole defending the world from the boogy-man.
Wasting cash on boondoggle after half ass Boondoggle.
We owe what like 11 trillion dollars and rising fast.
We can't afford anymore government.
Indeed IMO government regulations are what have prices so out of wack.

By the way enjoy your stay in an American Hostpital when you get
"Termanal" brain cancer don't worry though we will get you patched up.

ilkhan said:

I can believe we don't have it.
We have shot it down several times.
Its unconstitutional.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204518504574416623109362480.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Not to mention we are already in the hole defending the world from the boogy-man.
Wasting cash on boondoggle after half ass Boondoggle.
We owe what like 11 trillion dollars and rising fast.
We can't afford anymore government.
Indeed IMO government regulations are what have prices so out of wack.

By the way enjoy your stay in an American Hostpital when you get
"Termanal" brain cancer don't worry though we will get you patched up.

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Why will I go to an American hospital when Canada has some of the best cancer treatment facilities in the world... And it's FREE!!!

I do amit, there are long wait times for non-lifethreatining injuries/sicknesses. I once had to wait 6 hours in the ER with a broken arm, but when I was finnished, I never had to pay a cent!!! And I had no problem letting people with more serious injuries go ahead of me.

And I think it's fucked that your country spends more money killing people than my country does giving people free health care.

What about the poor in your country or those with no insurance. I think that it is more unconstitutional that people can't get the care they need because of their financial situation. Wouldn't you want some of your money to go and help someone who can't afford it. That to me is what a country is all about.

And what about all those people with insurance but are denied care because their HMO gives some bullshit excuse about a pre-existing condition. Private insurance companies where first started by Nixon, and he thought they were a great idea because they can maximize profits by giving people less care. Here's a quick link you should read. http://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/showthread.php?t=535664

I'm not a communist, but I do have alot of socialistic values. Schooling (up to college) in your country is socialized, so is the police, fireservice, and postoffice. Is it so bad?

When it comes to health, everyone should have the care they need without worrying about how they are going to pay for it. I don't expect you guys down there to understand, it is something you have to grow up around to appreciate it.

Trust me, Universal Health Care is the only way to go.

Overall, according to a study published in Lancet Oncology last year, five-year cancer survival rates are higher in the U.S. than those in Canada. Based on data from the Joint Canada/U.S. Survey of Health (done by Statistics Canada and the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics), Americans have greater access to preventive screening tests and have higher treatment rates for chronic illnesses. No wonder: To limit the growth in health spending, governments restrict the supply of health care by rationing it through waiting. The same survey data show, as June and Paul O'Neill note in a paper published in 2007 in the Forum for Health Economics & Policy, that the poor under socialized medicine seem to be less healthy relative to the nonpoor than their American counterparts.
Ironically, as the U.S. is on the verge of rushing toward government health care, Canada is reforming its system in the opposite direction. In 2005, Canada's supreme court struck down key laws in Quebec that established a government monopoly of health services. Claude Castonguay, who headed the Quebec government commission that recommended the creation of its public health-care system in the 1960s, also has second thoughts. Last year, after completing another review, he declared the system in "crisis" and suggested a massive expansion of private services -- even advocating that public hospitals rent facilities to physicians in off-hours.

Whats up CrackerJax,

You make some very valid points, especially on the waiting stats, and I am not saying that Canada's health care system is complete. There is still alot that we can improve on. I commend you on the research you have done, I like how you get hard facts before you discus issues. The wait times in Canada are usually anywhere from a couple of weeks to several months on a variety of tests and procedures. With what I have experienced so far in my life that anything life threatining gets treated right away.

As for our government wanting to go private. That campain is being run by the conservitive party and the french nationalists in our country. The reason why we don't have a private system is because our people will never allow it. The biggest problem with our system is that durring the last 20 years there has been a large increase of immigrants to Canada. Not to say anything bad about immigrants, but too many at once. Basically, my health care was paid for by my parents, but because there are so many new-canadians our system hasn't been able to catch up. Sociallized medicine does work, I've seen it. There are some advantages to the American system in that if you have money you don't have to worry about care.

That study from Paul O'neill doesn't compare it to Canada's system, but just a general sociallized system. Plus, the poor in the US have to stay healthy because they can't afford treatment. Most of the time they are not included in studies because they don't seek treatment. Plus, Paul O'neill is a Bush person, he shouldn't be trusted (Ok former Bush person but a shit lepoard can't change its shit spots, HAHA).

There is alot of room for improvment in both systems, but from living in Canada my whole life and growing up with sociallized medicine, our system seems more humain. Everyone is covered and no one is left in the dark.

I am intrested however in two-teir health care where a seperate system is set up where the rich can pay for procedures and tests instantly at a price comparable to the States, and the money made is used to buy more equipment and offer more resources to the public system which will cut the overall wait.

The USA also has about 20 times ur population and yet our GDP is certainly not 20 times that of Canada. There is a disparity which works against a social system in the USA.

Two other points that just won't go away...

1.) The US govt. has a terrible track record at this sort of thing. The numbers quickly go into the red and never come out.

2.) Mandated health care is blatantly unconstitutional. We will go through all of this nonsense, wasting time and money on something which should surely get knocked down by the Supreme Court.


The idea that Obama is going to cut waste in medicare with the health care bill is flawed. He doesn't need a health care bill to do that. Half truth.

The doctors absolutely hate this idea of socialized medicine. They don't want it.

Obama is now trying to make health care a crisis, but the ppl aren't buying it. Because there is no crisis. There is no need to rush into this. The idea that Obama is now shopping for a bill, ANY bill smacks of needing something passed, no matter how badly written. This seems to indicate that a real fix is not the goal.

If we can pull the govt. and lawyers out of the doctors offices, much of the costs would evaporate. Obama doesn't want to talk about any of that. It's in the interest of the govt. to keep medical costs high, until they can take over.

The whole mess is rotten..... and unconstitutional.

Some of these things I have read here are crazy, and base on nothing but fear. We have more rationed health care in the US than anyone. it is just rationed by the insurance companies, who by law (based one them being publically traded companies) have only one interest, there Stock Holders. Looks at the stats, there are states were insurance companies have over a 50% 1st application denial rate. The Idea that a gov. would be worse is totaly unfounded. I am still waiting for a fear mongering conservatives to stand up for the abolishment of Medicare or privatization the VA. They can't they would get distroyed, because these single payer goverment run socialist plans (that the Bush administration added to) are actually the best plans in the US (that and some of the state plans for children) they can actually care about better health rather topping there profits from the last Qtr, so the stockholders are happy.

You don't understand what rationing is then.............

You get what you pay for in the private system.

You pay but don't get the value in a public system.... big difference.

Fear? nonsense. You use the word fear because fear is the response to not understanding. You project outwards your perception, not mine.

Having the govt. power grab nearly 20% of the nations yearly output and put that hard earned effort into something as wasteful as a govt. program is the height of irresponsibility.

And............. it's unconstitutional.

CrackerJax said:

The USA also has about 20 times ur population and yet our GDP is certainly not 20 times that of Canada. There is a disparity which works against a social system in the USA.

Two other points that just won't go away...

1.) The US govt. has a terrible track record at this sort of thing. The numbers quickly go into the red and never come out.

2.) Mandated health care is blatantly unconstitutional. We will go through all of this nonsense, wasting time and money on something which should surely get knocked down by the Supreme Court.


The idea that Obama is going to cut waste in medicare with the health care bill is flawed. He doesn't need a health care bill to do that. Half truth.

The doctors absolutely hate this idea of socialized medicine. They don't want it.

Obama is now trying to make health care a crisis, but the ppl aren't buying it. Because there is no crisis. There is no need to rush into this. The idea that Obama is now shopping for a bill, ANY bill smacks of needing something passed, no matter how badly written. This seems to indicate that a real fix is not the goal.

If we can pull the govt. and lawyers out of the doctors offices, much of the costs would evaporate. Obama doesn't want to talk about any of that. It's in the interest of the govt. to keep medical costs high, until they can take over.

The whole mess is rotten..... and unconstitutional.

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I agree with you in the fact that I don't beleive that the Obama health care plan is the answer. A good thing that the American system has going is that people don't abuse it, or abuse it as much as ours (Canadian), because they have to pay for it. One of the reasons Canadians abuse health care in Canada is that many new Canadians came from countries with SHITTY health care and it is like letting a kid loose in a candy store. That uses up all of the resources for others, then that starts a back log. Also, one thing that should be mentioned is that the Canadian federal government only supplies some of the funding for health care while the real planning and the rest of the funding lies on the provincial governments. Around 1995, Ontario (where I live) elected a fucking nut job far right winged Premeir by the name of Mike Harris (1995 - 2002). He single-handedly destroyed health care and education by cutting funding by so much that the system was running on fumes for years, and we couldn't handle the influx of new Canadians. The reason he cut so much is so he could give massive cuts to busineses and give government money to his friends without running a deficit. I'm not against tax cuts to busineses, but the amount of handouts he gave to his people is sickening.
I remember 15 years ago, the Canadian health care system was very efficient. Also, the education system had a plethora of assisstance programs ranging from subsidized before and after school "day care" to new state of the art resources that were avalible when needed.
I know that penny for penny, you get more care in the American system for yourself, but the beauty of a sociallized system is that everyone is making sure everyone has some kind of coverage, and no one is left without health care. Neighbours looking out for one another, it's a beautiful thing.
Like I said before, we don't have the best system and there is alot of room for improvement. If the US plans to get a sociallized system on the go, then I think that they should take their time and develop one that also brings some types of income back in. That is why the two-teir system is the way of the future. I don't think that health care (which more or less is an essential service) should ever be ran for profit. It is a bad idea because there is alot of room for corruption and people have no choice to pay because they need care. Two-teir still brings money in to the system and offers total care for everyone. Those who have the money to pay can pay for quicker service, and the money from that can be used to buy more resources for the public system. All of which should be ran by the government to avoid corruption (there still will always be some form of corruption, but aleast there is less room for it if it's publically owned).
I am familiar with the conservitive view of less government means less money wasted on government. But unfortunately we live in a world of greed and we can't trust private companies to look out for our best intrests, especailly the poor.

I would like to hear your view CrackerJax on two-teir health care. Your points are always well researched and your facts are facts rather than bullshit nonsense.

CrackerJax said:

You don't understand what rationing is then.............

You get what you pay for in the private system.

You pay but don't get the value in a public system.... big difference.

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I call BULLSHIT !!!
Thats impossible, pure and simple; impossible.

So by your logic the insurance companies give out in benefits an equal amount to that they take in in coverage fees?

Id like to know how if their expenses equal their income how do they turn a profit?

Its simple, they profit by spending less than they get paid.

Put down the pipe.... that is not what my post says....

... With Taxes Galore

Posted 11/19/2009 07:27 PM ET

Health Care: That thump in Washington was the 2,047 pages of the Senate overhaul bill landing on the chamber floor. The ripping noise that followed is the sound of money being yanked from Americans' wallets.
No question, most Democrats like to tax, and this legislation, unveiled Wednesday by Majority Leader Harry Reid, provides them a grand opportunity to indulge that urge.
According to Americans for Tax Reform, Reid's Senate bill uses the word "tax" no fewer than 183 times, "taxable" 164 times, "taxes" 17 times, "fee" 152 times and "penalty" 115 times.
The repeated references are clear indications of how bill supporters plan to fund an overhaul that, we are supposed to believe, will bring health care costs down.
Of course it won't. This bill will cost far more than the $848 billion over 10 years it's projected to. (Cato's Michael Cannon says as much as $2.5 trillion.) And a good part of those costs will be paid by adding to Americans' already painful tax burden.
Perhaps the ugliest tax is a levy on "Cadillac" health insurance plans. The Senate bill places a punitive 40% — yes, 40% — excise tax on health care plans valued at $8,850 and more for individuals, $23,000 and beyond for families. The margins for early retirees and high-risk professionals would be a bit more generous — $9,850 for single coverage and $26,000 for family plans.
The Senate bill will also wring fees from companies that manufacture and import branded drugs, as well as those that make and import certain medical devices. The amount of each company's fees will be based on the company's share of sales for the tax year.
Some Americans will eagerly support the idea of Congress sticking it to "greedy" firms. But this tax is particularly foolish, as it will curb innovations in the pharmaceutical and medical equipment industries. The companies that make the lifesaving and life-enhancing products that we should all be thankful for are not likely to respond to the fees by becoming more aggressive in their R&D.
Other taxes in the bill include:
• A 0.5% hike on the Medicare payroll tax — to 1.95% from 1.45% of wages — for those earning $200,000 or more a year. The margin will be set at $250,000 for joint filers.
• A 5% tax levied on elective cosmetic surgery, defined as surgery that doesn't "meaningfully promote" proper body function or "prevent or treat illness or disease." It will be paid by the patient.
• A tax on insurance companies that is estimated to raise $19 billion. Like the taxes on drug and medical device companies, it will be based on revenue share — premiums collected in this case — during the tax year.
• A limit on the amount of medical expenses that can be deducted from taxes.
It seems a little more than ironic to us that legislation that will supposedly improve health care could actually tax some of us to death. Let's hope enough senators see it the same way.

What sheer foolishness...to impose this type of taxation when we are enduring 10.2% unemployment is stunning in it's destructiveness!
Beyond comprehension.

If you throw in farm unemployment, it's closer to 17%. Also, lots of folks have quit looking, and are not counted.

It's much more than 10.2% ... and climbing.

The govt. is causing the unemployment, not fixing it. Now they think we should trust them with health care?

Our healthcare system in the US is beginning to rot from the inside out with little hope of recovery. More government in healthcare will only make it rot faster. I say let's just get it over with so the system can collapse and we can have a chance at starting over with something actually sustainable, like a real free market system, the same system that brought us wealth, technology and the best standards of living that the world has ever seen, where the poor are living better than the vast majority of the world's population. The government is a cancer that is killing it's host. The facts are in front of our eyes.

Pull the lawyers from the medical industry.

CrackerJax said:

Pull the lawyers from the medical industry.

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I would love to pull all of the lawyers from politics.
I think we should enact a ban on attorneys holding any elected position.

We need these foxes kept out of the henhouse!