Help and advice needed - Curled, clawing, yellowing leaves, slow growth, brown spots - 1st grow, in veg

D

drtitus

Member
Hi folks,

1st time grower here, excited to be a part of this community and the larger plant growing community! I have a problem with my plant and am looking for some help


First some details about my setup and measurements:

Strain: Bakerstreet (indica). Started from seed
Growing medium: Soil, Promix premium organic: https://www.promixgardening.com/en/p...table-herb-mix
Transplantations: twice so far. Of note, during the second transplant, the bottom half of the root ball partly broke away and I'm pretty sure some root damage occurred at this point. The broken off roots are still in the soil.
Grow Light: 150W HID
Light Height: Initially around 8-12" away from the plant. I've since moved lights further away (around 16" currently) given the problems I'm seeing
Temperature Range: 68F - 79F
Humidity: 40% - 50%
Training: Some LST so far (accompanied by a one-time topping when the total number of nodes was around 6)
Nutrients: I've fed them once with a bit of https://monjardinurbain.com/produit/...croissance-1l/ a few weeks ago. I'd say this is roughly when my problems started.
pH of water going in: 7 - 7.5 (checking via color, and its a majority green color that I see)
pH of runoff (currently): 5.0 (the color is solidly orange with a hint of yellow)
Age: The plant is around a month and a half old and is in vegetative stage.

Issues:

The title summarizes the issues I'm seeing.

Timeline:

1. A few weeks ago, I fed the plant with some nutrients, choosing an amount well below the recommended dosage on the bottle (roughly a quarter). At roughly the same time, I also topped the plant and did some minimal LST on it.
2. A week or so after the feeding, and approximately close to the time after the second transplant, I started seeing new leaves clawing in a manner that matched descriptions of nitrogen toxicity. Growth slowed down pretty dramatically at this point and the affected leaves also appeared "crispy" and dry. It was at this point that I decided to move the lights up further and reduce the load on the plant.
3. A week after that (two weeks ago), with all new leaves displaying clawed leaves, I decided to flush the plant with plain water at roughly a 7 pH. This was when I also noticed that the runoff pH was as low as it is. As I was flushing, I did not see any noticeable change in the runoff pH.
4. This week, growth is still slow and it sort of seems like new growth are not clawing any more, but I'm not a 100% sure about this because growth is super slow. Brown spots have also started to appear and I'm seeing new growth assume a yellowish tinge. Some of the older leaves are also turning yellow. The runoff pH after the watering today is still low and looks like it hasn't changed from last time. Today is the first I've watered since the flush, and I've done so with plain water at roughly 7 pH.

I'm pretty concerned about the health of the plant at this point. The issues I'm seeing all seem to be related to the low runoff pH, but I'm not sure what I can do to fix this. What I've done so far has not seemed to improve it, so would love any and all recommendations from y'all. Where have I gone wrong and what am I missing? Please let me know if I can provide any more info.

Thanks a lot!
 

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Boatguy

Boatguy

Well-Known Member
drtitus said:
Hi folks,

1st time grower here, excited to be a part of this community and the larger plant growing community! I have a problem with my plant and am looking for some help


First some details about my setup and measurements:

Strain: Bakerstreet (indica). Started from seed
Growing medium: Soil, Promix premium organic: https://www.promixgardening.com/en/p...table-herb-mix
Transplantations: twice so far. Of note, during the second transplant, the bottom half of the root ball partly broke away and I'm pretty sure some root damage occurred at this point. The broken off roots are still in the soil.
Grow Light: 150W HID
Light Height: Initially around 8-12" away from the plant. I've since moved lights further away (around 16" currently) given the problems I'm seeing
Temperature Range: 68F - 79F
Humidity: 40% - 50%
Training: Some LST so far (accompanied by a one-time topping when the total number of nodes was around 6)
Nutrients: I've fed them once with a bit of https://monjardinurbain.com/produit/...croissance-1l/ a few weeks ago. I'd say this is roughly when my problems started.
pH of water going in: 7 - 7.5 (checking via color, and its a majority green color that I see)
pH of runoff (currently): 5.0 (the color is solidly orange with a hint of yellow)
Age: The plant is around a month and a half old and is in vegetative stage.

Issues:

The title summarizes the issues I'm seeing.

Timeline:

1. A few weeks ago, I fed the plant with some nutrients, choosing an amount well below the recommended dosage on the bottle (roughly a quarter). At roughly the same time, I also topped the plant and did some minimal LST on it.
2. A week or so after the feeding, and approximately close to the time after the second transplant, I started seeing new leaves clawing in a manner that matched descriptions of nitrogen toxicity. Growth slowed down pretty dramatically at this point and the affected leaves also appeared "crispy" and dry. It was at this point that I decided to move the lights up further and reduce the load on the plant.
3. A week after that (two weeks ago), with all new leaves displaying clawed leaves, I decided to flush the plant with plain water at roughly a 7 pH. This was when I also noticed that the runoff pH was as low as it is. As I was flushing, I did not see any noticeable change in the runoff pH.
4. This week, growth is still slow and it sort of seems like new growth are not clawing any more, but I'm not a 100% sure about this because growth is super slow. Brown spots have also started to appear and I'm seeing new growth assume a yellowish tinge. Some of the older leaves are also turning yellow. The runoff pH after the watering today is still low and looks like it hasn't changed from last time. Today is the first I've watered since the flush, and I've done so with plain water at roughly 7 pH.

I'm pretty concerned about the health of the plant at this point. The issues I'm seeing all seem to be related to the low runoff pH, but I'm not sure what I can do to fix this. What I've done so far has not seemed to improve it, so would love any and all recommendations from y'all. Where have I gone wrong and what am I missing? Please let me know if I can provide any more info.

Thanks a lot!
Click to expand...
Seems like they may be hungry. Testing runoff is not a very accurate way to check soil ph.
 
D

drtitus

Member
@Cabbagelit I haven't - this is the first i'm hearing of this! Would appreciate if you could point me to some good resources on this (mainly explaining how it benefits and good ways to make/procure)? Thanks!
 
Boatguy

Boatguy

Well-Known Member
drtitus said:
@Boatguy thanks! do you think it's ok to give nutes at this point given the leaf clawing?
Click to expand...
Looks more like drooping to me than clawing. Use care to not overwater if you didnt add any additional perlite to the mix.
The water, water, feed regimen worked well for me in promix
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
High drtitis

I've used that veg and herb promix too and not any more. The time release nutes, organic or not, don't seem to work all that well so I stick to promix hp and use my own nutes with better results.

The reason half the rootball fell of is that the roots hadn't grown into the lower portion enough to hold it together and possibly you repotted while the soil was still quite wet. Repot when the pot is dry. Another possibility is that you are not soaking the pot well when you do water and only the top portion is getting wet enough. Then the roots air-prune at the dry zone and stay near the top. As you are testing runoff I suspect the former.

Don't worry about the roots that got torn off as I routinely use a bread knife to saw off the bottom inch of the rootball when I up-pot. If there are roots wound around the ball I'll shave them off too. They grow back very fast and like topping the branches cause the roots to grow side roots that fill the ball with fine feeder roots all the way from top to bottom.

I gather that you are using tap water which is the source of grief to so many growers. I've only used RO or distilled water for the last 20 years to help prevent many of the issues caused by poor water quality. Contact your water supplier and ask for a copy of their water analysis reports. Should be free and can be emailed to you. Tap water can have all sorts of minerals in it that mess with your pH and plant growth.

ProMix has lots of two types of lime in it as it's peat based and peat is acidic so needs lime to keep the pH up. I would add a good dose of half strength nutes to your next batch of water then adjust the pH to 6.5 but I doubt very much that those drops give you an accurate reading. Soak the pot good and feel the weight of it then wait until the pot feels quite light before a full watering again.

About your light. 150W HID as in a standard 150W bulb like those used to light up farm yards? If so it's not a good light for growing pot with. If it's a specialty light for plants then disregard.

She's not in bad shape so should do OK yet.

:peace:
 
Boatguy

Boatguy

Well-Known Member
OldMedUser said:
High drtitis

I've used that veg and herb promix too and not any more. The time release nutes, organic or not, don't seem to work all that well so I stick to promix hp and use my own nutes with better results.

The reason half the rootball fell of is that the roots hadn't grown into the lower portion enough to hold it together and possibly you repotted while the soil was still quite wet. Repot when the pot is dry. Another possibility is that you are not soaking the pot well when you do water and only the top portion is getting wet enough. Then the roots air-prune at the dry zone and stay near the top. As you are testing runoff I suspect the former.

Don't worry about the roots that got torn off as I routinely use a bread knife to saw off the bottom inch of the rootball when I up-pot. If there are roots wound around the ball I'll shave them off too. They grow back very fast and like topping the branches cause the roots to grow side roots that fill the ball with fine feeder roots all the way from top to bottom.

I gather that you are using tap water which is the source of grief to so many growers. I've only used RO or distilled water for the last 20 years to help prevent many of the issues caused by poor water quality. Contact your water supplier and ask for a copy of their water analysis reports. Should be free and can be emailed to you. Tap water can have all sorts of minerals in it that mess with your pH and plant growth.

ProMix has lots of two types of lime in it as it's peat based and peat is acidic so needs lime to keep the pH up. I would add a good dose of half strength nutes to your next batch of water then adjust the pH to 6.5 but I doubt very much that those drops give you an accurate reading. Soak the pot good and feel the weight of it then wait until the pot feels quite light before a full watering again.

About your light. 150W HID as in a standard 150W bulb like those used to light up farm yards? If so it's not a good light for growing pot with. If it's a specialty light for plants then disregard.

She's not in bad shape so should do OK yet.

:peace:
Click to expand...
Missed that part about the veg herb promix. I have only used the all purpose promix. Basically no nutes in it
 
D

drtitus

Member
@OldMedUser Thanks for the detailed response and the encouragement!

1. Good to know about the veg and herb promix. I reckon the clawing in the leaves early on was an effect of the time release nutes. Maybe once the plant gets bigger I can repot using the all purpose version (w/o) nutes?

2. You're spot on about the root-ball. I definitely re-potted right after a water, without waiting for it to dry out. Great to know that this won't affect the plant much or at all.

3. Yep, I'm definitely using tap water at the moment. I live in Toronto and this is their quality report as of 2018: https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/8fd4-Drinking-Water-Analysis-2018-AODA.pdf. What does one look for when looking at a report like this? Any minerals I should be concerned about in particular? I don't currently have a RO or distillation setup/gear.

4. Sounds good re: adding nutes next time; do you think I should invest in a digital pH meter?

5. The light I have is the powersun 150w HPS: https://coin-420.com/product/powersun-complete-kit-150w-hps-120v-1/?age-verified=4c88d07bab. I was told this is for plants at the store I bought it from.
 
G

Greybush7387

Well-Known Member
Ur in promix feed should be 6.0 going in feed everytime. Follow directions on bottle test ppms should read around 5 to 600 ppms for veg is good. Allow some runoff to flush built nutes like 10 percent what u put in. Look for better nutes u need a name brand like gh or advanced they are perfect for weed. Also keep a 150 watt no further than 9 to 12 inches always. Ur plant looked like shit cause u had wrong ph and werent feeding every water. U should only give regular water when hairs are 75 percent for 2 wks. If u need to ever flush use a mild nute solution like i sai until runoff is aroun 6 it should never reach 1000. Less is more let the plant dry out to allow o2 to roots they love it u can go till the leaves droop. Its also a good way to help buds ripen in weeks 8 plus. And dont have a fan blowing on them to hard no temps below 65 or above 90 95 and ur good
. Good luck
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
drtitus said:
. Yep, I'm definitely using tap water at the moment. I live in Toronto and this is their quality report as of 2018: https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/8fd4-Drinking-Water-Analysis-2018-AODA.pdf. What does one look for when looking at a report like this? Any minerals I should be concerned about in particular? I don't currently have a RO or distillation setup/gear.
Click to expand...
Main thing to look for is the ppm which is 209 so not horrible still fairly high and will build up over time in pots so getting some decent runoff after watering slowly makes sure some of the buildup gets flushed every time. Watering to saturation with just pH balanced water, letting it sit for a couple hours them flushing through some fresh nute mix every 10 or so waterings will keep the girls happy. I use RO only so just get a bit of runoff once in a while and check it for pH and ppm. A week ago it was pH 6.4 and 770ppm for my only flowering girl a Hindu Kush in a 7gal pot under a 600W Hortilux Super HPS.

Municipal water has to be within certain guidelines for human health. Not plant health tho so a sodium level deemed fit for human health may be too high for a plant over time. Same with iron and many other minerals.

Minerals like Ca. Mg. Mn, Boron are good in small amounts and you got those. Not enough to be all a plant needs but enough that with your nutes you shouldn't be suffering deficiencies unless you pH gets out of whack and causes lockouts. The pH in the report is 7.6 so again not so horrible. We buy RO water in 5gal jugs as we get our tap water from a dugout on our property and it's pH 8+ and around 420ppm. (400 actually but 420 sounds better) :)

I have a distiller but it costs more to make pure water than to buy it.

Nothing serious to worry about in that water.

drtitus said:
The light I have is the powersun 150w HPS: https://coin-420.com/product/powersun-complete-kit-150w-hps-120v-1/?age-verified=4c88d07bab. I was told this is for plants at the store I bought it from.
Click to expand...
Looks like it's a standard 150W security light type HPS and not a very good grow spectrum for either veg or flower. There are 150W bulbs designed for growing and I had it wrote down somewhere long ago but can't find it now. Some searching should turn it up tho.

It'll still do the job but just not as well. Once you sit down and smoke some of your own pot you'll be inspired to find a better light. We all did at some time. :)

A pH and ppm pen are both handy tools to have and will help you grow better. pH pens need special care to keep them working longer and more accurately but ppm pens just need a spray rinse then left to dry between uses. Get pH calibration sol'n for one and 1000ppm for the other. And storage sol'n for the pH pen too.

:peace:
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Oops, forgot one.

drtitus said:
Good to know about the veg and herb promix. I reckon the clawing in the leaves early on was an effect of the time release nutes. Maybe once the plant gets bigger I can repot using the all purpose version (w/o) nutes?
Click to expand...
Yes you could but you'll need to water it in with half strength nutes as the soilless versions like HP have no nutes in them. Just fill the new pot enough that when you drop the plant in the top of the rootball is even with the top of the pot then fill around the sides packing in firmly but not too hard then water the whole thing 'til good and soaked with the nute mix. If lots of long rootss at the bottom cut them off. Should be new roots poking out the bottom in a week. Don't let it get too big unless you get more light for her. 150W isn't much.
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Greybush7387 said:
After looking again it may just need a up pot make sure its in a 2 gallon pot or suttin
Click to expand...
How long since the last upotting? You want it to have a good network of roots to hold the thing together when you move it. The drier the better but not to the point that the plant is drooping badly. That won't kill it tho unless it's a couple day like that.
 
D

drtitus

Member
@OldMedUser @Greybush7387 thanks a ton for your responses! there's a lot of good info in them that's worth thinking about :)

First answers to some questions:

"How long since the last upotting? You want it to have a good network of roots to hold the thing together when you move it. The drier the better but not to the point that the plant is drooping badly. That won't kill it tho unless it's a couple day like that."

It's been a couple of weeks at least since the last up-potting (unfortunately haven't been keeping a meticulous record of these things). I've attached a picture of what looks like continued curling/clawing in some newer leaves. At this point I'm kind of confused how the plant can display signs of N-toxicity along with signs of other deficiencies (like the spots in the earlier pictures), and also worried/curious that giving it nutes will make the clawing worse. Would a lack of nutrients cause curling/clawing that I'm seeing?

@Greybush7387 what signs tell you that the plant may need an up-pot? In any case will definitely plan to re-pot into a bigger pot this weekend and start adding nutes in a nute-less soil, since that seems to be one of the issue causers here.

Also re: water, what do y'all think of using spring water? Not sure how much I should trust the tap water, especially because I have little knowledge of how the pipes etc influence things.

I hope she recovers soon!
 

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OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
drtitus said:
Also re: water, what do y'all think of using spring water? Not sure how much I should trust the tap water, especially because I have little knowledge of how the pipes etc influence things.
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Is that clawing mostly with leaves close to your reflective wall? Light is more intense there so that could be it. Like getting a sunburn worse when out on the water because of reflection of the sun added to direct light from the sun. Same thing off the snow.

What kind of spring water we talking about? Store bought mineral water or you have a spring handy? Either way it depends on the mineral content of the water. You can contact your tap water supplier for a copy of their analysis which should be free or even on the town website.

I just use RO or distilled only then never have to worry that it's my water causing any problems I run into. Leaf cupping can be a sign of overwatering too. Soak good, let dry, soak good . . .

:peace:
 
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