Help me understand Organic vs. Chemical grows.

ismann

ismann

Well-Known Member
Funkentelechy said:
Regardless of whether the form of nitrogen(for example) that a plant metabolizes is the same in the end, the end result is different. Can anybody here say that a plant grown organically tastes exactly the same as a plant grown with synthetic inputs? The plant may not "care", as some of you put it, as long as its nutritional needs are met, but surely you can tell the difference in the end result. Beef from a cow that is grain-fed is exactly the same on the molecular level as a cow that is grass-fed, but any foodie worth his or her salt can taste the difference.

This is not to say that one is better than another, or a debate of which is right or wrong, just that there is obviously a difference in the end result between growing methods. Which one you prefer is up to you.
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A cow's natural diet doesn't include grain. A cow will store much more fat on a grain-based diet than grass because grains are much higher in omega-6 fats. It isn't really the same thing comparing whether or not a plant gets its inorganic ions via microbial transaction or directly with salt-based fertilizer.
 
Funkentelechy

Funkentelechy

Well-Known Member
ismann said:
A cow's natural diet doesn't include grain. A cow will store much more fat on a grain-based diet than grass because grains are much higher in omega-6 fats. It isn't really the same thing comparing whether or not a plant gets its inorganic ions via microbial transaction or directly with salt-based fertilizer.
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A plant's natural inputs don't include synthetic chemical salts.
In theory two plants could be fed the exact same levels of the same nutrients one from organic chemicals and the other from synthetics and be chemically the same. But in the real world, they would never be the exact same, because there are always more factors involved in terms of how and how quickly a plant processes a given form of nutrient and what other things are present with those nutrients. Nutrients are nutrients, yes, but that is a huge(!) oversimplification of the process of how it goes from nutrients to building plant cells.
Again I'm not saying one is better than the other just that a properly grown plant with all of its nutritional needs met will taste different depending on the inputs. If you disagree, good news then, you can all save some money and switch all your nutrients to generic Miraclegrow from the Dollar store, since it doesn't matter right? The plant doesn't care.
 
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Funkentelechy

Funkentelechy

Well-Known Member
We don't process vitamins the same when they come from supplements as we do when they come from a meal. Even though once in our cells they are exactly the same, How those nutrients are processed by the body is hugely different.
 
Blue brother

Blue brother

Well-Known Member
Hollatchaboy said:
What non organic materials, are they using the word organic for?
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Literally All sorts, any type of naturally occurring mineral it seems but Epsom salts use in organic farming is the main one, also all the different types of rock dust, vermiculite and others too I’d imagine.

im not saying the fda actually say these materials are organic but that food grown with them is. And also I’m definitely not saying there is anything wrong with using these materials, just that by definition they are not organic
 
Hollatchaboy

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
Blue brother said:
Literally All sorts, any type of naturally occurring mineral it seems but Epsom salts use in organic farming is the main one, also all the different types of rock dust, vermiculite and others too I’d imagine.

im not saying the fda actually say these materials are organic but that food grown with them is. And also I’m definitely not saying there is anything wrong with using these materials, just that by definition they are not organic
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But aren't they all natural to the earth? Imo, organic means naturally derived. The rock dust is just like rock breaking down in nature. To me, that's organic. The vermiculite, I don't believe adds any real nutritional value. I mean where do you think nature comes up with minerals?
 
Blue brother

Blue brother

Well-Known Member
Hollatchaboy said:
But aren't they all natural to the earth? Imo, organic means naturally derived. The rock dust is just like rock breaking down in nature. To me, that's organic. The vermiculite, I don't believe adds any real nutritional value. I mean where do you think nature comes up with minerals?
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Yeah they are for the most part natural to the earth, but they are by definition non organic, you are sort of right though, over the last 20 or so years organic has been used to describe natural, this is something the fda came up with and it’s spread around the world.

And of course I know that nature uses the natural minerals around to grow plants and fertilise soil and that’s totally natural, and safe and fine, but these chemicals are not organic by definition. Organic chemicals have carbon in them, and came from a living organism.

I’m not having a dig at organic growing methods or anything like that, I mean I do no til living soil so it would be abit rich coming from me, I just don’t like how the true meaning of the word has been almost lost amongst all this food industry terminology.

I guess my grievance lies with people who say it’s ok to use one refined mineral (magnesium sulfate) and be absolutely fine with that in an “organic setup” but then be all god like and come down hard on those who use other refined minerals. The plant doesn’t care, the plant absorbs the exact same chemicals regardless of their organic or inorganic origin. I just grow no til cos it’s easy, and good for the environment and I’d rather work with nature wherever possible.
 
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Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
A plants diet is described as being chemo-litho-photo-autotrophic.

Just discard all the abstract broscience.

Yes, plants can selectively assimilate polypeptides over nitrate. Better as no nitrate-reductase has to be done.

The mineralic P2O5 can greatly hurt mykorrizha colonisation, as well as pH shifts do to bennes.
 
Hollatchaboy

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
Blue brother said:
Yeah they are for the most part natural to the earth, but they are by definition non organic, you are sort of right though, over the last 20 or so years organic has been used to describe natural, this is something the fda came up with and it’s spread around the world.

And of course I know that nature uses the natural minerals around to grow plants and fertilise soil and that’s totally natural, and safe and fine, but these chemicals are not organic by definition. Organic chemicals have carbon in them, and came from a living organism.

I’m not having a dig at organic growing methods or anything like that, I mean I do no til living soil so it would be abit rich coming from me, I just don’t like how the true meaning of the word has been almost lost amongst all this food industry terminology.

I guess my grievance lies with people who say it’s ok to use one refined mineral (magnesium sulfate) and be absolutely fine with that in an “organic setup” but then be all god like and come down hard on those who use other refined minerals. The plant doesn’t care, the plant absorbs the exact same chemicals regardless of their organic or inorganic origin. I just grow no til cos it’s easy, and good for the environment and I’d rather work with nature wherever possible.
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Yea, I get ya. By definition, most aren't organic, but it would be difficult to source minerals that are.
 
Blue brother

Blue brother

Well-Known Member
Hollatchaboy said:
Yea, I get ya. By definition, most aren't organic, but it would be difficult to source minerals that are.
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Yeah it’s a tricky one, especially when it comes to the metals, even metal organic compounds don’t usually have the metal-carbon bonds that would make said metal organic. But for the most part…. Who cares? Cos the plants don’t, it really is just down to semantics.
 
Hollatchaboy

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
Blue brother said:
Yeah it’s a tricky one, especially when it comes to the metals, even metal organic compounds don’t usually have the metal-carbon bonds that would make said metal organic. But for the most part…. Who cares? Cos the plants don’t, it really is just down to semantics.
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Agreed.
 
Friendly_Grower

Friendly_Grower

Well-Known Member
ismann said:
A cow's natural diet doesn't include grain. A cow will store much more fat on a grain-based diet than grass because grains are much higher in omega-6 fats. It isn't really the same thing comparing whether or not a plant gets its inorganic ions via microbial transaction or directly with salt-based fertilizer.
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An interesting bit here is that they will feed the Cows Chocolate waste products as well..
 
Friendly_Grower

Friendly_Grower

Well-Known Member
Hollatchaboy said:
I've had grass fed beef in Texas. Too gamey for me. I'll stick with corn fed.
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All I knew in California was feed lot beef. Illinois is more grass fed.
I had a burger at a restaurant and like a dweeb I was like saying wow this is gamey but good. I guess this is grass fed beef?
Yeah I looked stupid.
The Beef here is good and not all that expensive but not as marbled as I am used to.
 
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