Hermaphrodite?

Creature1969

Creature1969

Well-Known Member
bk78 said:
Reddit or YouTube possibly?
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Highly possible.
I've seen some very questionable claims/bro-science made on some of the bigger "commercial seed vendor" sites over the years, so my mind usually jumps to who's making the profit.
 
Sparky413

Sparky413

Well-Known Member
Creature1969 said:
Which "breeder" told you that? Fast Buds, crop king, other?
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Multiple sources, I think from a google search i got some info from fastbudz lol, listening to some stuff on "the Potcast" with breeders talking about growing/breeding with chem genetics. From my own experience of neglecting my girls, and getting full on balls right after major stresses. I had a Bruce Banner from Monster Genetics. A Spanish breeder that I bought seeds from when I was newer and getting my info from the sources you make fun of me for. But that Banner, likely just a selfed clone with no other breeding. She had a crazy stretch, grew above my light, threw a bunch of balls. I cut her well before the light, picked off all the balls. She didn't throw another ball, but I did get a bunch of late nanners, and she was barely seeded. I never grew her again but would have if the smoke was worth it Also, when I was first first starting to grow, and wasn't even paying attention to humidity or heat, I had an entire tent have balls. I live on a slab in 1 bed apt. with a ventless dryer. That tent had no vent or fan, It was probably 95f+ with 80%rh. I had some seedsman Blueberry and Gelat.OG in that tent, they had full on balls like you wouldn't believe. Since then I've grown out their sisters with no problems in better conditions. I think the only difference between nanners and balls is the levels of the ethylene and at what time. So maybe you guys just don't suck enough at growing to get full blown herms? Or more than likely I'm missing something, and apologize for the spread of misinformation. I'll put myself in the corner, thank you.
 
Wizzlebiz

Wizzlebiz

Well-Known Member
Sparky413 said:
Multiple sources, I think from a google search i got some info from fastbudz lol, listening to some stuff on "the Potcast" with breeders talking about growing/breeding with chem genetics. From my own experience of neglecting my girls, and getting full on balls right after major stresses. I had a Bruce Banner from Monster Genetics. A Spanish breeder that I bought seeds from when I was newer and getting my info from the sources you make fun of me for. But that Banner, likely just a selfed clone with no other breeding. She had a crazy stretch, grew above my light, threw a bunch of balls. I cut her well before the light, picked off all the balls. She didn't throw another ball, but I did get a bunch of late nanners, and she was barely seeded. I never grew her again but would have if the smoke was worth it Also, when I was first first starting to grow, and wasn't even paying attention to humidity or heat, I had an entire tent have balls. I live on a slab in 1 bed apt. with a ventless dryer. That tent had no vent or fan, It was probably 95f+ with 80%rh. I had some seedsman Blueberry and Gelat.OG in that tent, they had full on balls like you wouldn't believe. Since then I've grown out their sisters with no problems in better conditions. I think the only difference between nanners and balls is the levels of the ethylene and at what time. So maybe you guys just don't suck enough at growing to get full blown herms? Or more than likely I'm missing something, and apologize for the spread of misinformation. I'll put myself in the corner, thank you.
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Stress can create nanners which can pollinate crops no question about that.

But growing balls like a male plant due to stress is not a thing.

I'm thinking you have this confused.
 
Creature1969

Creature1969

Well-Known Member
@Sparky413 I'm not knocking your experiences, just trying to help the knowledge.
If stress induced actual hermaphrodite traits this forum would have multiple posts a day about such occurrences. There would be dick'nballs posted in most of the help threads. I too would have experienced it many times over the years due to some major screw ups. This simply is not the case.
True male/female herms are genetic.
 
Sparky413

Sparky413

Well-Known Member
Thanks for educating me guys. I likely misunderstood when listening to "the potcast", and the only sources I can site is fastbuds and maybe another spanish breeder if I looked hard enough. My experiences kind of don't prove anything on what I thought, just that I had some herm plants. I def got some bad info from listening to the "dude grows" and other youtube channels. Not sure if that led to my misunderstanding, but at least I'm a couple years away from doing that to myself. I probably only spent about $100 on Recharge, but maybe I'll re-coop some of that back in a class action.
 
BongerChonger

BongerChonger

Well-Known Member
One technicality many seem to ignore but can't refute, is that by very definition a plant with both male and female inflorescence is monoecious.
Say what you will, but bananas are male reproductive organs, making the plant monoecious too.

The available science categorizes them as monoecious plants. But they can't tell these monecious plants in Cannabis by their chromosomes, because they'll appear female. And they still haven't figured out "why".
But that by no means categorizes the same plant as dioecious.

If it looks like a hermie and quacks like a hermie, it's a hermie.
 
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Wizzlebiz

Wizzlebiz

Well-Known Member
BongerChonger said:
One technicality many seem to ignore but can't refute, is that by very definition a plant with both male and female inflorescence is monoecious.
Say what you will, but bananas are male reproductive organs, making the plant monoecious too.

The available science categorizes them as monoecious plants. But they can't tell these monecious plants in Cannabis by their chromosomes, because they'll appear female. And they still haven't figured out "why".
But that by no means categorizes the same plant as dioecious.

If it looks like a hermie and quacks like a hermie, it's a hermie.
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In the MJ growing world nanners are nanners and a herm is a herm.

Happy to clear that up for you.
 
BongerChonger

BongerChonger

Well-Known Member
Wizzlebiz said:
In the MJ growing world nanners are nanners and a herm is a herm.

Happy to clear that up for you.
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I'd actually really appreciate if you could clear some things up for me. Because there's a Cannabis sativa L. study which floats around about spontaneous hermapheroditism that bugs me in all honesty. It's full of assumption bias and never once mentions monoecious phenotypes in it's study. Thus disregarding them completely, disregarding all possibility the plant could have been monoecious all along.
If I can find the study I'm mentioning I'll post it. It's been posted on this forum a lot.

So after reading said study a few weeks ago, I found the one I've posted in searching. I'd appreciate it if you took the time to read it. I think it's a good study and quite informative. And a source for good conversation.

I certainly agree a herm is a herm.
 

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Wizzlebiz

Wizzlebiz

Well-Known Member
BongerChonger said:
I'd actually really appreciate if you could clear some things up for me. Because there's a Cannabis sativa L. study which floats around about spontaneous hermapheroditism that bugs me in all honesty. It's full of assumption bias and never once mentions monoecious phenotypes in it's study. Thus disregarding them completely, disregarding all possibility the plant could have been monoecious all along.
If I can find the study I'm mentioning I'll post it. It's been posted on this forum a lot.

So after reading said study a few weeks ago, I found the one I've posted in searching. I'd appreciate it if you took the time to read it. I think it's a good study and quite informative. And a source for good conversation.

I certainly agree a herm is a herm.
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I'd be happy to read it over and debate whatever you would like.

Doing that still does not change the fact that this is categorized in the MJ growing community as 2 different things because they absolutely are.

Nanners are a common occurrence at end of life for many but not all strains/ phenotypes of strains. It's thought to be a last ditch effort of the plant to try to extend its lineage when it has not been pollinated by a male.

Nanners can also occur due to environmental stress which is the higher % cause.

Nanners are not ball sacks. They are essentially what is inside of said ball sack.

A herm by category in the MJ community is in fact a plant with both pistils and balls sack.

This is not caused by stress nor end of life last ditch effort but simply by shit genetics.

Regardless I plan to read the study when I have time and we can focus on that next.
 
BongerChonger

BongerChonger

Well-Known Member
Wizzlebiz said:
Nanners can also occur due to environmental stress which is the higher % cause.

Nanners are not ball sacks. They are essentially what is inside of said ball sack.
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I'm not at all debating that.
Mentioning phenotype, you'd likely be familiar with phenotype expression much of the time being due to environment. Characteristics the same individual expresses in one environment can be completely different in the next. Thus the expression of "nanners" may, or may not happen.
But alas, environmental factors cannot "change" dioecy. Or gender for that matter. Only expression.
A dioecious plant can't "express" opposite plant sex organs due to environment or stress.
They are what they are.

Wizzlebiz said:
fact that this is categorized in the MJ growing community as 2 different things because they absolutely are.
They are essentially what is inside of said ball sack.
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Well given the inflorescence and the way plant gender gets categorized, they absolutely are not.
It's not even to trash every plant which expresses monoecy. They're a necessary burden in my own opinion. And healthy for the wild Cannabis gene pools.
Hell, some you just pick a few off and ride with it. No big deal.

But plant sifting in Canna is getting really big now. People who are chucking pollen, or breeders making strains, don't want them. They're stressing female plants and sifting out the intersex.
And this makes sense if intersex plants are believed to have xx chromosome. They can't sift out the females with a lab test.

Wizzlebiz said:
Nanners are a common occurrence at end of life for many but not all strains/ phenotypes of strains. It's thought to be a last ditch effort of the plant to try to extend its lineage when it has not been pollinated by a male.
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Ok, so to throw a phyllisophical frisbee your way....who says that isn't just working off the theory of evolution and large populations? And a small % of plants will always intersex, or not. Both early in bloom and late, across the whole plant pool.
But that it's the numbers of plants and averages, with consistent yearly blooms that matter.

It's not as if a plant can "decide" when to herm. That would imply thought process or consciousness.
When it's far, far more likely genetics and environmental factors play the role.

Wizzlebiz said:
I'd be happy to read it over and debate whatever you would like.
Regardless I plan to read the study when I have time and we can focus on that next.
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Thanks!
Much appreciated.
Cannabis genetics / breeding and soil are two things I'm obsessed with. Chucking pollen and playing in the mud is lots of fun.
I would very much like to chat.

p.s. - Again, I'm not debating whether hermaphroditism can be expressed differently depending on environment. I'm saying the way they're often categorized on MJ boards is incorrect.
 
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Anarchy4theUK

Anarchy4theUK

Member
1 nice girl and get some clones , top it drop it in a pot of clonex stuff it in a jiffy and drop it into a jam jar.
jam jars rule
 
Wizzlebiz

Wizzlebiz

Well-Known Member
BongerChonger said:
I'm not at all debating that.
Mentioning phenotype, you'd likely be familiar with phenotype expression much of the time being due to environment. Characteristics the same individual expresses in one environment can be completely different in the next. Thus the expression of "nanners" may, or may not happen.
But alas, environmental factors cannot "change" dioecy. Or gender for that matter. Only expression.::::
This is what I have been saying hence the ability to state nanners are nanners (environmental) while gender cannot be changed due to environment actual hermapheroditism.


A dioecious plant can't "express" opposite plant sex organs due to environment or stress.
They are what they are.:::

Yep agreed. Female plants can throw nanners but cannot just grow balls If not already predisposed through genetic makeup.


Well given the inflorescence and the way plant gender gets categorized, they absolutely are not.
It's not even to trash every plant which expresses monoecy. They're a necessary burden in my own opinion. And healthy for the wild Cannabis gene pools.


Hell, some you just pick a few off and ride with it. No big deal.::::

Ive never been of the mind to trash a plant with nanners. Many nanners are sterile and even if not most give off very little pollen. While full blown balls spews pollen just like a true male plant would. A true herm I will trash without a second thought.

But plant sifting in Canna is getting really big now. People who are chucking pollen, or breeders making strains, don't want them. They're stressing female plants and sifting out the intersex.

And this makes sense if intersex plants are believed to have xx chromosome. They can't sift out the females with a lab test.::::

It seems you recognize chucking pollen and actual breeding on a responsible level are 2 different things.Just because the field is rife with genetic messes doesn't mean it should be.

The herm expression has been amplified by most pollen checkers crossing their fingers and hoping for the next big thing.

It should be a fraction of a % of what it is but human intervention has done what it's done.


Ok, so to throw a phyllisophical frisbee your way....who says that isn't just working off the theory of evolution and large populations? And a small % of plants will always intersex, or not. Both early in bloom and late, across the whole plant pool.
But that it's the numbers of plants and averages, with consistent yearly blooms that matter.

It's not as if a plant can "decide" when to herm. That would imply thought process or consciousness.
When it's far, far more likely genetics and environmental factors play the role.

Can some of it be evolutionary? Sure. I can't argue for or against that. What I can say is male and female genetics are separate in MJ and have been for a very long time. The % of herms (not nanners. Environmental issues can dictate these) in ladrace as well as properly bred genetics is quite low. So although I can truly argue that evolution is part of it I tend to believe it's more on humans messing with things.

Thanks!
Much appreciated.
Cannabis genetics / breeding and soil are two things I'm obsessed with. Chucking pollen and playing in the mud is lots of fun.
I would very much like to chat.

p.s. - Again, I'm not debating whether hermaphroditism can be expressed differently depending on environment. I'm saying the way they're often categorized on MJ boards is incorrect.
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All responses have been cut into your post.
 
BongerChonger

BongerChonger

Well-Known Member
Wizzlebiz said:
Yep agreed. Female plants can throw nanners
This is where we have to categorically disagree. On the basis that according to the study I posted and previous studies mentioned in it, all hermaphrodite plants, including those which appear "true hermie" and or have nanners test as xx chromosome. And it's inflorescence is intersex as well.
Point is even by lab test, you can't sift these "true females" out. And you can't do it visually either.

Ive never been of the mind to trash a plant with nanners.
I just can them because I couldn't be bothered with them. And ideally don't want them. That's not to say some may be keep able.

The herm expression has been amplified by most pollen checkers crossing their fingers and hoping for the next big thing.
It should be a fraction of a % of what it is but human intervention has done what it's done.
They're getting a lot better at it though. And the industry is making strides too imho.
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Wizzlebiz said:
All responses have been cut into your post.
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No worries, thanks. I've done the same. Cheers.
p.s.
@Wizzlebiz - I remembered a video about the topic with Kevin Jodrey too if you're interested. Meaty bit is around 2min in.

 
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