How Many Libertarians Out There?

Hudsonvalley82 said:

Look buddy, its pretty simple that all these schools of thought spawn from the same pool.

Democrats blame the rich for all their problems.

Libertarians blame the government for all their problems

Republicans blame the poor, the unions, the minorities, the catholics, the gays, the artists, green energy, and proper nutrition for all of their problems.
(can't help but put a jab there)

I understand you want a smaller government because of the evils it indulges into, I want a smaller private sector due to all the same evils as well.
I am pretty sure that you and I are aggravated about the same aspects of our society. Wealth distribution, privacy rights and intrusion, blah blah blah...however we see a different underlaying cause for these issues.

Also, just as a minor rebuttal, social programs will never exist in the private sector. Never, there is no profit (and I don't think anyone would want there to be), and for every convoluted answer that one could fathom there is a corresponding subsidy that funds it either on the local, state, federal, or global level.

And dude, seriously, you are sounding a bit naive, and I mean that as constructive criticism not a direct insult, so please don't go off on some "he's a hater" rampage. Basing a 21st century superpower government within the original constraints a 223 year old economically driven document is an insult to most of our intellects (I hope). The main thing that all libertarians forget is that the constitution a changing document, designed to meet new challenges and award new abilities to the government and its citizens as time went on. This whole "original" constitution argument is baseless at best. I mean, fuck, why stop there, Im so fucking libertarian that; screw the constitution, I want to strip the government back down, all the way to the Magna Carta. Really man, think about that...In all honesty the US constitution was drafted to create a unified American currency, and to set up a working revenue system, by binding the confederation within an umbrella legal infrastructure, essentially eliminating the states ability to value its own currency. The end goal of our constitution was to create a trustworthy internationally recognized currency that could be used to build confidence that the country could handle taking on debt. Prior to that foreign countries were wary, to say the least, about lending us money, as we has 13 or so different economies at once. The bill of rights was thrown in there to lure in states and delegates who were wary of the economic drivers behind this document. So, nothing is pure man, like I said, libertarianism, like idealism is just over analyzing a day dream. It bears no actual use or bearing. There are many circumstances in which individual rights have to be valued less that the greater good, more than the specifics mentioned. A country needs mechanisms in place in order to execute properly in such circumstances. Life isn't fair. Life isn't fair for a homeless person, a dying child, a middle class family, a politician, a pot farmer, and a millionaire alike, just ask them. Instead of trying to change the outside circumstances to suit how life isn't fair to you at the hands of the US government, just shut the fuck up and deal with it. Things take care of themselves, however you can't always expect it to happen with in your specified time frame. It's all about perspective, look back at any one single 3 year period within this century for the US and anyone can list a massive amount of inequality, violence, pain, sacrifice, lack of rights, so on and so forth. Step back and look at the century as a whole, and many will say it was probably the most important and successful time period any one civilization has seen since man made fire. All thanks to a strong federal government as well as a strong and willing work force that knew when it was best for it to shut the fuck up and drudge on instead of whining. They didn't sit around and cry about debts, they paid the shit off by paying their taxes, so they can eventually move on to the next thing.

If things are so bad for you that paying you taxes is making you go broke, than you should probably put down th J and fucking manage your money properly.

sorry about the tone of this post, the east coast in me is coming out a bit...You can take the man out of...

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NLXSK1 said:

You dont seem to understand the concept. If I work for my paycheck the government gets a cut. If I work harder the government gets a larger cut. If I work even harder... Well you guessed it... The percentage of my check that I get goes down.

I probably havent paid federal taxes in 5 years because I havent made enough to qualify to pay for it.

But you keep missing the other point I am trying to make. THE GOVERNMENT IS SPENDING FAR MORE THAN MY TAXES COVER!!! The spending is completely fucking out of control. The government is currently borrowing 42 cents on the dollar to pay for its programs. That means that everyone would have to have a 40% tax increase to be able to cover just the current costs of what the government is spending...

The government has spent us 13 trillion dollars in real debt and hundreds of trillions of dollars in promised debt into the toilet. 13 trillion dollars is 13 THOUSAND BILLION DOLLARS... Overspent, above all of the taxes we have paid into the system. It is more than the entire production of the united states for a year.

I want smaller government because we are beyond broke. There is nothing left but empty promises. Social Security is looted, 5-10 of the states are likely going to have to declare bankrupcy if it is made possible. There is no money left to spend. And even if you confiscated all of the money from the wealthy it would not begin to cover all of the costs that have been racked up.

People keep missing the point. There is not going to be poor houses, there are going to be soup kitchens and tent cities because the government is destroying the value of the dollar and spending our kids future faster than anyone could possibly keep up the payments.

But hey, when it collapses we will all be equally miserable. Well, except for the rich because they will stay above it all as always.

You just dont seem to get it and you keep buying into what the government is selling you which is class warfare. They have it, you want it, we are going to give it to ya!!!

Fucking pathetic...

One last thing. PLEASE BREAK UP YOUR POSTS INTO PARAGRAPHS!!!

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NoDrama said:

The constitution is an ever evolving work eh? Lets see, its been changed what, all of 17 times in 235 years. I think the tax law changes approximately 250 times a year. It awards no one or any government anything, it is there to tell government what very limited things it CAN do, of course its been so perverted by the power monger politicians that I doubt if its even taught in school anymore.

US Constitution setup a Currency? Can you tell me where in the US Constitution it defines what a Dollar is? Since the Dollar is the US Currency it must be defined right? Perhaps you thought Bretton Woods was part of our founding fathers heritage? Are you sure you know what is written there? The only time the dollar is mentioned is in section 1, article 9 clause 1, and also in the 7th amendment. Neither define what a dollar is. It wasn't until 1792 that the United States Dollar was defined as a unit of weight equaling 371 4/16th grains (24.057 grams) of pure silver. Somewhat difficult to build an empire of debt based on a debtless money system. Try 1913 and the creation of the Federal Reserve and creation of a currency of fiat money to adhere your conspiracy theory, not the founding documents of this great country.

There are many circumstances in which individual rights have to be valued less that the greater good? That's total anathema to what this country is based upon. It should be that individual rights trump all.




.

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Hudsonvalley82 said:

A) Yes, that is why we have a constitution and not the articles of confederation. Do some more reading on Washington and Adams, and see why exactly the constitution was drafted. Of course you can't just say that a dollar is worth whatever, however you can bind 13 economies together as one government, pitch that to France and Germany for some much needed loans to keep the United States a country another year longer, and also to establish a military that was first used to quell the angry overtaxed population. The beginning of this country was far from the golden years bud. Yeah, gold and silver standard bs. If you really want to end the world, go back to it. The reason we are the most powerful country in the world is directly tied to its abolition. If we were on the gold standard still, we'd all be speaking German cuz we couldn't cut the financial mustard to build the best military the world has ever seen.

B) Individual rights trump nothing, your a dreamer. A lot of things should be a certain way, but guess what? they are not. Good example: Some dude next door shouldn't have the individual right to dump carcinogens in my water supply. Individual rights exist within the parameters of majority rules correct? So your argument is only right in a limited number of rare circumstances, and is a poor (at best) rule of thumb to live by.

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Hudsonvalley82 said:

A) Yes, that is why we have a constitution and not the articles of confederation. Do some more reading on Washington and Adams, and see why exactly the constitution was drafted. Of course you can't just say that a dollar is worth whatever, however you can bind 13 economies together as one government, pitch that to France and Germany for some much needed loans to keep the United States a country another year longer, and also to establish a military that was first used to quell the angry overtaxed population. The beginning of this country was far from the golden years bud. Yeah, gold and silver standard bs. If you really want to end the world, go back to it. The reason we are the most powerful country in the world is directly tied to its abolition. If we were on the gold standard still, we'd all be speaking German cuz we couldn't cut the financial mustard to build the best military the world has ever seen.

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Hudsonvalley82 said:

B) Individual rights trump nothing, your a dreamer. A lot of things should be a certain way, but guess what? they are not. Good example: Some dude next door shouldn't have the individual right to dump carcinogens in my water supply. Individual rights exist within the parameters of majority rules correct? So your argument is only right in a limited number of rare circumstances, and is a poor (at best) rule of thumb to live by.

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Hudsonvalley82 said:

Look buddy, its pretty simple that all these schools of thought spawn from the same pool.

Democrats blame the rich for all their problems.

Libertarians blame the government for all their problems

Republicans blame the poor, the unions, the minorities, the catholics, the gays, the artists, green energy, and proper nutrition for all of their problems.
(can't help but put a jab there)

I understand you want a smaller government because of the evils it indulges into, I want a smaller private sector due to all the same evils as well.
I am pretty sure that you and I are aggravated about the same aspects of our society. Wealth distribution, privacy rights and intrusion, blah blah blah...however we see a different underlaying cause for these issues.

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Hudsonvalley82 said:

And lets not forget that the constitution is up to interpretation regarding what is not address or what is vaguely addressed.

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Hudsonvalley82 said:

The reason we are the most powerful country in the world is directly tied to its abolition. If we were on the gold standard still, we'd all be speaking German cuz we couldn't cut the financial mustard to build the best military the world has ever seen.

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B) Individual rights trump nothing, your a dreamer. A lot of things should be a certain way, but guess what? they are not. Good example: Some dude next door shouldn't have the individual right to dump carcinogens in my water supply. Individual rights exist within the parameters of majority rules correct? So your argument is only right in a limited number of rare circumstances, and is a poor (at best) rule of thumb to live by.

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Perhaps you do not understand this idea and are of the opinion that mankind is nothing more than a animal with nothing on their mind but their own selfish thoughts and actions.

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UncleBuck said:

wow, this guy rocks.

please post often.

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NLXSK1 said:

Well, until you are voted into political office and you become generous and giving of other peoples money...

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NoDrama said:

Well you have definitely shown your ignorance, perhaps you did not know that the USA has been the most powerful country since the end of WW1, and the fact that we were on the GOLD STANDARD until March , 1971. Perhaps you also did not know that WW1 ended November of 1918. Guess what, we became even more powerful all the while on a gold backed standard. Amazing how facts can make one look like an ignoramus isn't it?



I may be a dreamer, but i'm not the only one. Dumping carcinogens in your neighbors water supply is a violation of the neighbors rights. No one ever said that the individual should be allowed to do whatever he pleases, we just say that as long as you aren't causing harm or damage to someone else or their property then all is ok. Perhaps you do not understand this idea and are of the opinion that mankind is nothing more than a animal with nothing on their mind but their own selfish thoughts and actions. Perhaps you see yourself as this uncaring animal and know that deep down you would never help the poor or indignant if you weren't forced by penalty of imprisonment to give up what is 100% yours. In your world it is quite alright if the majority ruled that all babies were to be put to death, because in your world the majority rules, even if it means stomping all over someone elses liberties and life. What you advocate is slavery and fiefdoms.

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its not your money

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NLXSK1 said:

I would like to add that if it is not my money I am working for... Then I am a slave to the government. Which is true, most people just dont realize it yet.

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Hudsonvalley82 said:

its not your money...its your dues that you owe to your nation for the quality of life and wealth that you enjoy.

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Hudsonvalley82 said:

Bingo buddy, actually I would say that the government is even a slave to a larger capitalist system, in which no one owns their own money. Seems to me that most peoples money belong to bank loans and credit cards, not the government. So your working for a bank, owning things you shouldn't own and living a quality of life that none of us should enjoy, for what the average american makes, none of us should own property let alone a house or several cars, or an expensive set of golf clubs. Those don't sound like slaves to governments to me, they sound like slaves to a heightened sense of greed and vision of a happy life written by marketing specialists and boardrooms. Our retirements are tied up in 401k, in the banks, our homes are tied by in mortgages in the banks, our educations are tied up in the student loans from the banks, our cars, TV's, appliances, trust funds, everything. The government and its problems are just a symptom of a much larger problem that must be addressed prior to solving anything else government-wise. Money controls all, and it controls us, not the government. That is why we make no forward progress in this discussion, as we are attacking a symptom, not the germ.

Regarding the firetrucks, that was a literary analogy, not an actual example. I was basically stating that throwing less at an urgent problem usually doesn't make matters better.

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