How Many Libertarians Out There?

What do you think?

  • Democrats have it right!

    Votes: 3 7.1%

  • Republicans have it right!

    Votes: 1 2.4%

  • Libertarians have it right!

    Votes: 27 64.3%

  • I support something else entirely!

    Votes: 11 26.2%
  • Total voters
    42
Hudsonvalley82

Hudsonvalley82

Well-Known Member
You think the situation would have improved by now?? I disagree 100%. Depressions don't solve themselves. They don't improve themselves. How does less and less private sector revenue end up creating jobs, and keeping money/business flowing? It doesn't, It can't, It never will.
Thats the grim hard fact. I don't want to spend 700 billion if we don't need to. Its a really shitty option. But it was the only one with a road out. Geniuses like yourself opposed the only obvious answer so hard, that passing the obvious answer took such massively dumbing down that is was a joke, but still better than all of the alternatives. The conservatives set the trap that way. By making the stimulus next to toothless, they would use it to get massive sweeps in the 2010 elections, so they could fuck shit up even worse than they always do. Huge deficits, huge upper class ass kissing, huge income gap, small brains.

Keynesian economics is they only effective answer period. Many have tried to work around that fact, but always end up to it. I think the stimulus should have been closer to 1 trillion, and damn near all community college (retrain the unemployed), state budget support, and infrastructure spending.

If I'm wrong please tell me how?
 
Hudsonvalley82

Hudsonvalley82

Well-Known Member
Strange then how the GDP was back to pre-depression levels in 1940...The depression ended before WWII btw.

NoDrama said:
Umm lets see after WW2 there weren't any countries left that had a shits worth of manufacturing capacity except the USA. When your the top dog and make everything, guess what? Depression gone, good times are here!!! They tried to spend their way out of the depression for 10 fucking years and only made things worse. FDR stole 1/2 the money in the USA and let government squander it. War is what got us out of the depression not government largesse.
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N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Hudsonvalley82 said:
You think the situation would have improved by now?? I disagree 100%. Depressions don't solve themselves. They don't improve themselves. How does less and less private sector revenue end up creating jobs, and keeping money/business flowing? It doesn't, It can't, It never will.
Thats the grim hard fact. I don't want to spend 700 billion if we don't need to. Its a really shitty option. But it was the only one with a road out. Geniuses like yourself opposed the only obvious answer so hard, that passing the obvious answer took such massively dumbing down that is was a joke, but still better than all of the alternatives. The conservatives set the trap that way. By making the stimulus next to toothless, they would use it to get massive sweeps in the 2010 elections, so they could fuck shit up even worse than they always do. Huge deficits, huge upper class ass kissing, huge income gap, small brains.

Keynesian economics is they only effective answer period. Many have tried to work around that fact, but always end up to it. I think the stimulus should have been closer to 1 trillion, and damn near all community college (retrain the unemployed), state budget support, and infrastructure spending.

If I'm wrong please tell me how?
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I see, its all just a big republican conspiracy to gather votes by making sure the stimulus didn't improve things.
 
P

Parker

Well-Known Member
Hudsonvalley82 said:
There is a lot of speculation there...low interest rates we fighting a deflating dollar, which was killing production power. The depression was caused by an under regulated financial sector, and the mid west drought, not interest rates. Interest rates have never ever caused a depression, that is an economic fact, so don't go pinning the fed this,
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lmao The depression we are in now was caused by too low interest rates and the manipulation of our government into the private sector. The GSEs knew they couldn't fail because their loans were guaranteed.
You are confusing deregulation with government manipulation.

Hudsonvalley82 said:
the fed that, while the real criminals were in the private sector, pouring tons of capital into deregulation. Depressions are made strictly by private sector factors. Much like some of the tax cuts worked, government spending also works as well, especially in the 30's. Taxes are a tool, not a solution.

PS unemployment was decreasing prior to those tax cuts anyway.
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if you are talking about the mini depression in the 1920's, no it wasn't decreasing prior to the tax cuts.

Hudsonvalley82 said:
Oh here we go about the stimulus. Pin the guy up for a number, not the facts. Did your state government halt in the past two years? No, guess why? Stimulus. Even the most conservative state governor ended up admitting they needed that money or the gig was up. Unemployment is never going to be less that 6% in my eyes. Why? because most of the jobs we have are useless and bear little to no fruit. Business found out that the average american worker is performing a task that can be done if others just work harder. Thats what happens with lay offs.
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you say too many things that don't hold water. So all these years businesses have been over-hiring and only recently found out that two people can do the job of three????? When you layoff people you do not produce as much. Two people can not do the work of three. period.

Hudsonvalley82 said:
The only regret i have about the stimulus is the goddamn stupid tax breaks. What a retarded move. It has been proven time and again that tax breaks like the ones in that bill, do not stimulate anything. Direct government spending, food stamps, welfare, unemployment all do. But you know what really stimulates the economy? all the teachers, cops, firemen, town and state sanitation and highway workers jobs that were saved do.
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lmao It has been proven tax breaks along with reduced government spending gets us out of depressions fairly quick. What also has been proven - A government worker, who is compensated at twice the rate of the private worker and does not do as good a job as the private sector. Who pays those salaries? Why its the private sector of course.
The stimulus did little to the infrastructure. Unlike what FDR did, which was bad for the economy too, but at least he did things that helped the infrastructure.

Hudsonvalley82 said:
Lets be realistic about this, instead of dramatic and boarish. This was an economic disaster by any and all means. 2 years ago the entire financial system took such a massive shit, entire countries went bankrupt (like iceland). What is the worst that happened here? 9.7% unemployment, which is serious, but not world ending. Retail and Business bounced back in two years, our 401Ks, and mutual funds have damn near recovered, if not outperformed their prior status. If you honestly HONESTLY think that letting states come to a screeching halt, and having entire local, state, and federal institutions fall flat on their face would result in a better outcome than what we have, then your opinion really should be disregarded.
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State governments would not come to a screeching halt. Provide proof please or past history. Otherwise it holds no water.
Good move mentioning Iceland. I almost forgot how they are getting out of their depression. Doing the opposite of the made up stuff that you said works.
Iceland's recovery makes case for allowing banks to fail
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2010/12/11/stories/2010121153060400.htm

Hudsonvalley82 said:
If you gauge the the stimulus only by its unemployment numbers, then you miss out on the fact of what it did. If you want to go around, basing your opinion on fiction, then fine. But shit, how many jobs did it save? How many did it create? What if they didn't get saved or created? Christ, its about 2 years later and retail companies are logging in christmas spending on the scale of 2006's numbers.
If you think that was going to happen without a stimulus than please carry on ignoring what actually happened, instead of what happened in your mind.
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It didn't create or save many jobs. We know this from the actual figures put out.

Are you playing some sort of devils advocate? Because most of the things you site have been proven incorrect.
 
P

Parker

Well-Known Member
Hudsonvalley82 said:
Strange then how the GDP was back to pre-depression levels in 1940...The depression ended before WWII btw.
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Do you purposely try to be incorrect? Only after WW2 did we start to come out of the depression.

Hudsonvalley82 said:
Keynesian economics is they only effective answer period.
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ok now I get why you are wrong so much. Keynesian economics is a known failure. The fatal flaw of the tunnel visioned Keynesian economics, it doesn't factor in at what cost. That's why you didn't know we were still in a depression while WW2 was going on. You see production but don't care if that production is costly and of low quality.
 
NLXSK1

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
The fatal flaw of the tunnel visioned Keynesian economics, it doesn't factor in at what cost.
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Keynesian economics makes the situation look like a healthy economy because it mimics it by using borrowed money instead of money naturally generated by the economy.

Politicians like it because it saves their asses short term. However, due to the borrowing it only worsens the problems long term. Short term Keynesian economics can work but ultimately it is like getting drunk. You have to pay for it later...
 
Hudsonvalley82

Hudsonvalley82

Well-Known Member
Yeah thats the whole idea, later, when there is no recession. Would you rather pay your bills when you have an income or not? Debt is unavoidable in a recession, Keynes streamlined the most effective way of spending that debt.

NLXSK1 said:
Keynesian economics makes the situation look like a healthy economy because it mimics it by using borrowed money instead of money naturally generated by the economy.

Politicians like it because it saves their asses short term. However, due to the borrowing it only worsens the problems long term. Short term Keynesian economics can work but ultimately it is like getting drunk. You have to pay for it later...
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medicineman

medicineman

New Member
NoDrama said:
I see, its all just a big republican conspiracy to gather votes by making sure the stimulus didn't improve things.
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Pretty much. The repukes are on a kill Obama at any expense, even the American peoples expense. Why the idiots that voted them in couldn't see that, is still the question I'd like to see an answer to. Actually, I hope the repukes fuck the people so bad that they will have no chance in 2012. Maybe after the repukes get through with fucking the country up for people and giving all their rich friends big tax breaks and removing most if not all regulations on business and industry, the middle class that is losing their asses might wake the fuck up. If not, then this country won't be worth living in unless your daddy owns the company, those folks will be doing just fine.
 
Hudsonvalley82

Hudsonvalley82

Well-Known Member
Wow, you guys really have no idea what history is at all. I just got pneumonia and am contemplating mustering up the energy to categorically disprove your baseless accusations. Gimme sometime. I can barely type and just closed the tab I was working my response on by accident after 2 hours of typing.
 
Hudsonvalley82

Hudsonvalley82

Well-Known Member
You can see the same scenario in the financial reform bill, and health care bill, compromise until it is ineffectual. The only hope is starting like FDR did by planting the seed. Republicans have it on easy street with the extension of the tax cuts, and can blame Obama for the 700 billion dollar increase from the upper class (over 10 years) even though he staunchly opposed it. Conservatives are reckless, and self serving.

medicineman said:
Pretty much. The repukes are on a kill Obama at any expense, even the American peoples expense. Why the idiots that voted them in couldn't see that, is still the question I'd like to see an answer to. Actually, I hope the repukes fuck the people so bad that they will have no chance in 2012. Maybe after the repukes get through with fucking the country up for people and giving all their rich friends big tax breaks and removing most if not all regulations on business and industry, the middle class that is losing their asses might wake the fuck up. If not, then this country won't be worth living in unless your daddy owns the company, those folks will be doing just fine.
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Hudsonvalley82

Hudsonvalley82

Well-Known Member
In the long run you pay the shit off through revenues on a healthy economy. When the US is in full swing, its tax revenues are enormous. Tax cuts and medicare part D (which is like over paying for health care on the public dime, largely written by the private sector health care forces) Brought us here. Recession spending is like war spending. You have to do it. There is no other way out. You deal with the future as it comes. We will pay it off just like it took until clinton to pay off WWII. Where were the debt hawks then? I love you guys, your only idea is to cut spending to pay off debt.

If your in debt in your home, cutting spending occurs, however, you can't pay for all your debts by spending cuts, you would starve to death. You have to increase revenue. There is no other way. Debt hawks should be pleading for lower spending, along with the expiration of the bush tax cuts alike. But what did you morons call for? Keep the stupid tax cuts and throw everything else out.

If you are worried about the future, pay your taxes and keep on himming and hawing about spending. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

NLXSK1 said:
And in the long run....?
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NLXSK1

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
If your in debt in your home, cutting spending occurs, however, you can't pay for all your debts by spending cuts, you would starve to death. You have to increase revenue. There is no other way. Debt hawks should be pleading for lower spending, along with the expiration of the bush tax cuts alike. But what did you morons call for? Keep the stupid tax cuts and throw everything else out.
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Umm yeah... I would probaby cut SPENDING... I dont put myself in situations where I could not cover all my debts.

And surprisingly I wouldnt starve to death nor require a government bailout as shocking as that may be to you...
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
Hudsonvalley82 said:
Wow, you guys really have no idea what history is at all. I just got pneumonia and am contemplating mustering up the energy to categorically disprove your baseless accusations. Gimme sometime. I can barely type and just closed the tab I was working my response on by accident after 2 hours of typing.
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It's time to shake the history tree. It is only up to the moment at hand that one must quote the old addage, "history always repeats itself". There actually could be a new paradyme, that is what the progressive Idealism is all about, progress. It is the nature of the human dillema that greed always wins out in any attempt to change the system. I don't have the answers, I don't even know if there is an answer, but we can't sustain the current system without destroying the country.
 
Hudsonvalley82

Hudsonvalley82

Well-Known Member
Many people who once screamed that this country is being destroyed, look back at those events and realize that it was actually progress and human spirit in disguise. Abolishing of Slavery, Unions, Civil Rights, New Deal, Great Society, all were once called the destruction of this country, now have proved to be just the opposite.

medicineman said:
It's time to shake the history tree. It is only up to the moment at hand that one must quote the old addage, "history always repeats itself". There actually could be a new paradyme, that is what the progressive Idealism is all about, progress. It is the nature of the human dillema that greed always wins out in any attempt to change the system. I don't have the answers, I don't even know if there is an answer, but we can't sustain the current system without destroying the country.
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Hudsonvalley82

Hudsonvalley82

Well-Known Member
May I add that much of what you said is true. Manipulation and Steering of the greed, is actual politics. That is why I love the Prince so much. If you can steer the greed, and cause its fulfillment to cause your goals being met along the way, then you are truly a great politician, and you can turn the greed upon itself, and accomplish things that previously were thought impossible in any economic climate.

medicineman said:
It's time to shake the history tree. It is only up to the moment at hand that one must quote the old addage, "history always repeats itself". There actually could be a new paradyme, that is what the progressive Idealism is all about, progress. It is the nature of the human dillema that greed always wins out in any attempt to change the system. I don't have the answers, I don't even know if there is an answer, but we can't sustain the current system without destroying the country.
Click to expand...
 
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