IF you are new to LED and want help choosing what to buy, POST HERE!

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captainmorgan said:
You paint some pretty broad strokes yourself,how may I ask is a novice suppose to tell the good epistars from the bad when many of these companies will only give you the brand of LED and no other info or the many that out right lie,are you suppose to flip a coin. You seem to promote low quality over high in any circumstance,what if someone is rich and has a normal size grow,should he buy your recommended epistar panel. I tend to ask questions about their grow and their budget and go from there.
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Someone who isn't a novice can help point them in the right direction. How would the same novice know what Cree option is best? They need help or to do their own homework.
 
nomofatum said:
Someone who isn't a novice can help point them in the right direction. How would the same novice know what Cree option is best? They need help or to do their own homework.
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The better companies will tell you what they use for parts,some will even tell the bins,they have nothing to hide. If they claim it's a big secret what parts they use or their super secret spectrum you should pass. It's not a great secret what spectrum and in what percentages MM likes,it's only about fine tuning it. If someone doesn't do their homework and or they take advise from someone without looking at that persons experience or knowledge they are asking for problems.
 
captainmorgan said:
The better companies will tell you what they use for parts,some will even tell the bins,they have nothing to hide. If they claim it's a big secret what parts they use or their super secret spectrum you should pass. It's not a great secret what spectrum and in what percentages MM likes,it's only about fine tuning it. If someone doesn't do their homework and or they take advise from someone without looking at that persons experience or knowledge they are asking for problems.
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I honestly wouldn't recommend LEDs unless the person was willing to do DIY or they were working in a vertically short space anyway. Then the specific LED I would recommend would depend on their circumstances. I would recommend that people only take advice with a grain of sand regardless of the source. The reason for the opinion is more valuable then the opinion itself. It leads you to things you can evaluate to see if that opinion has merit. These are the facts you can review, the things that should lead you to your decision. The opinion/recommendation itself should only be a stepping stone.

I would have to agree, if you don't know what the product is, you shouldn't be buying it, if they have to be secret they can keep it.
 
nomofatum said:
I honestly wouldn't recommend LEDs unless the person was willing to do DIY or they were working in a vertically short space anyway. Then the specific LED I would recommend would depend on their circumstances. I would recommend that people only take advice with a grain of sand regardless of the source. The reason for the opinion is more valuable then the opinion itself. It leads you to things you can evaluate to see if that opinion has merit. These are the facts you can review, the things that should lead you to your decision. The opinion/recommendation itself should only be a stepping stone.

I would have to agree, if you don't know what the product is, you shouldn't be buying it, if they have to be secret they can keep it.
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So you have a negative view of LED in general and would only use it in a small number of cases basically. Do you have personal experience using LED and which ones would they be.
 
captainmorgan said:
So you have a negative view of LED in general and would only use it in a small number of cases basically. Do you have personal experience using LED and which ones would they be.
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I'm using DIY epistars, very good experience, I just find the non-DIY options to be priced beyond their value when compared with the other options. Nothing against LED, except the price.
 
billy-goats-gruff.jpg
 
az2000 said:
Yes, but that requires a little more vertical distance (5w chips in reflectors vs 3w against white backgrounds). If someone wanted to get 4-6 more inches to grow in, a chinese UFO seems like an ok choice. Or, at least, not much else to choose from (if they don't want to spend more). Better than CFL. Easier to use than LED "lightbulbs" (which I like! but, it's a bit of drama getting it setup.).
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So you're telling me that I can run a 200w passively cooled shitty Chinese COB light in my 2x2x4' tent, and had to add some CFL's and LED bulbs to get my temps up and you couldn't run 300w of RW's in a 2x4x4 space? I'd agree if he wanted to try and run monster plants. In that case he should be using a bigger space an not fuck around with a tent I wouldn't even use for vegging.
 
nomofatum said:
I'm using DIY epistars, very good experience, I just find the non-DIY options to be priced beyond their value when compared with the other options. Nothing against LED, except the price.
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I think you may change your mind a little if you would try a wider range of LEDs. I've seen jumps in yield at every increase of quality without adding watts,the last was the most dramatic. With 3' to 4' tall plants in 5 gal of dirt I went from .9 to 1 gram per watt with Cree XT-E's which are now a bit dated but a great LED to 1.3 to 1.4 GPW by using top bin Cree 3070 COBs with the same wattage and no other changes. The upgrade would pay for itself in one run.
 
captainmorgan said:
I think you may change your mind a little if you would try a wider range of LEDs. I've seen jumps in yield at every increase of quality without adding watts,the last was the most dramatic. With 3' to 4' tall plants in 5 gal of dirt I went from .9 to 1 gram per watt with Cree XT-E's which are now a bit dated but a great LED to 1.3 to 1.4 GPW by using top bin Cree 3070 COBs with the same wattage and no other changes. The upgrade would pay for itself in one run.
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Well duh. If you use the same watts the more efficient chip will produce more. Common sense and an IQ of 80 is enough to figure that out. The thing is you don't have to try them all to know how they will perform, you need an accurate measure of their actual usable output. That is all the plants care about. They won't have any clue or care as to what brand or type of emitter or bulb you are using.

There is no magic here, science should be your guide.
 
The world just seems like a better place now that I can't see your ramblings,I can only imagine now how many curse words and insults are directed my way and toward anyone else that responds to you,lifes good again.
 
captainmorgan said:
The world just seems like a better place now that I can't see your ramblings,I can only imagine now how many curse words and insults are directed my way and toward anyone else that responds to you,lifes good again.
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I'm just going to quote him so he gets a notification and see if he says anything funny.
 
What's that,are you talking to me? If I close my eyes real hard I can almost see you banging away at your keyboard bringing joy to the world.
 
GroErr said:
you couldn't run 300w of RW's in a 2x4x4 space?
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All I said was that my RW-75 requires about 8" to canopy. (The published info says 12-14".). I can put an 85w actual UFO (3w epi-unknown chips on a white diffusion board, no reflectors) about 2" from the canopy. I try not to get that close, but in a 4' tall space, 6" is about 25% of the available height (after factoring in the container height, fixture height, space above it for ventilation).

IMO that's a factor which could justify a cheap epi-unknown Chinese import if someone's not willing to spend more on a Hans, or go the LED "lightbulb" route (or, as you suggest, get a taller tent).

We were just talking about when a Chinese import might be a good choice. That's about the only one I can think of.
 
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az2000 said:
All I said was that my RW-75 requires about 8" to canopy. (The published info says 12-14".). I can put an 85w actual UFO (3w epi-unknown chips on a white diffusion board, no reflectors) about 2" from the canopy. I try not to get that close, but in a 4' tall space, 6" is about 25% of the available height.

IMO that's a factor which could justify a cheap epi-unknown Chinese import if someone's not willing to spend more on a Hans, or go the LED "lightbulb" route (or, as you suggest, get a taller tent).

We were just talking about when a Chinese import might be a good choice. That's about the only one I can think of.
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Or if they use electric heat. Or if they won't be growing with them long enough to justify the higher price of more efficient emitters. Those are exclusively the cases for Epistar emitters. In all other cases other lighting options ,including but not limited to Cree LEDs, are the better options

They are a niche product. But you can't deny they have places where they are the best option.

The tiny box grows that are so very common is one of those niches too.
 
nomofatum said:
I honestly wouldn't recommend LEDs unless either

1. The person was willing to do DIY
2. They were working in a vertically short space.
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Getting back to Chinese fixtures using epi-unknown chips (and the "decision tree") it sounds like the only use case is a short grow space where CMH isn't an option, the grower isn't willing to invest in a better light that can be used in said space, and doesn't want the modest DIY requirement of rigging up more efficient LED lightbulbs.

Sounds like you'd apply that reasoning to any LED (epi-unknowns or high-quality Cree, Osram, et. al.). At least you didn't qualify your recommendation above. Why is that? I think you said in another thread you feel LED technology is evolving too fast to invest significantly in whatever the leading chips are at any given moment? That seems valid (unless they have high electric costs, heat issues, etc., that might justify the expense.).

I'd like to hear @couchlock's opinion. Can he think of any other use cases where Chinese epi-unknown fixtures would be a valid recommendation?

Just trying to understand all the bad vibes from people who feel Chinese fixtures get a bad shake on this forum. So far, it sounds like you're decision tree is rather short. Just wondering if @couchlock agrees, or can explain more branches to the tree.
 
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