IF you are new to LED and want help choosing what to buy, POST HERE!

Greengenes707 said:

This is the definition of a troll...just fyi.

Why don't you bring something useful to the community??? like a grow???

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captainmorgan said:

Don't waste your breath GG,he's like a spoiled child when confronted with actual facts that don't agree with his view of the world. He even posted his supposed IQ and claimed in so many words that he was such a genius that he's misunderstood.

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I'm guessing by his avatar and posts, that this is our old friend Admiral Smurf again. If you can recall from the beginning of the year, he was the one who replaced a 1000w HPS with an XGS-190, and got mad when it didn't work. He went after me for awhile, but I put him in his place a couple of times, before he got himself banned. He's come back under different names since, but I just hit the ignore button now, whenever I think its him. I highly recommend doing the same.

Bad Karma said:

I'm guessing by his avatar and posts, that this is our old friend Admiral Smurf again. If you can recall from the beginning of the year, he was the one who replaced a 1000w HPS with an XGS-190, and got mad when it didn't work. He went after me for awhile, but I put him in his place a couple of times, before he got himself banned. He's come back under different names since, but I just hit the ignore button now, whenever I think its him. I highly recommend doing the same.

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No idea who that is, pull up a post and compare writing style, not many write like me so it's unlikely that you will still think I am him.

Boatguy said:

Digikey has uv and infrared here http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/optoelectronics/infrared-uv-visible-emitters/524328?k=uv

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I see lots of UVA lights and no UVB ones.

And vero...

I rock nichia and crees. Keep digging that hole

I'm a Osram 660nm fan

No-name = re branded mystery LEDs

So now Cree, sucks because everyone wants them? Ha ha, what fools logic.

Abiqua said:

So now Cree, sucks because everyone wants them? Ha ha, what fools logic.

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Who the hell said that? Sure as hell wasn't me, if you look back I'm pretty sure you will find multiple of my posts saying they make the best product, but the price is 8-10x that of epistar. And that it took time to pay off. I think both are good options, depends on your circumstances.

nomofatum said:

You will get debate on this. I think about 7500lm/sqft is optimal. Anything form 5000 to 8000 is where you want to be. (this is only applicable if you are looking at white leds/florescent/HPS/MH/CMH/... not red and blue sources.)

At 7500lm/sqft you need 30,000 lumens. A 250w HPS + 50w in supplemental lights would serve you very well. Switch to a MH during veg. The 50w supplemental lights: 25w UVB CFL or T8. 25w 6500k for flower 25w 3000k for veg (this is supplemental, just to provide a bit of blue during veg and a bit of red during flower, the opposite of your main light.)

If you want to go LED you will need between 230w and 300w depending on the chips being used.

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I showed in a previous example how lumens could be skewed. My PAR increased 41% but my lumens increased 61%, not a very linear progression. I wouldn't suggest a lumen count for this reason.

Abiqua said:

I showed in a previous example how lumens could be skewed. My PAR increased 41% but my lumens increased 61%, not a very linear progression. I wouldn't suggest a lumen count for this reason.

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I get your point, it's a fair point, but PAR isn't available for all the light options. PAR and Lumens grow linearly if you are comparing like wavelengths/colors. (correct?) I should modify the numbers to adjust for the difference and have one lumen/sqft count for veg and one for flower, then I have accounted for the variance from warm to cool colors but also use the easily available measure.

Does that sound reasonable? If not, why?

On the whole do you disagree with the system sizes that result from a 7500lm/sqft approach? Or just the method?

nomofatum said:

I get your point, it's a fair point, but PAR isn't available for all the light options. PAR and Lumens grow linearly if you are comparing like wavelengths/colors. (correct?) I should modify the numbers to adjust for the difference and have one lumen/sqft count for veg and one for flower, then I have accounted for the variance from warm to cool colors but also use the easily available measure.

Does that sound reasonable? If not, why?

On the whole do you disagree with the system sizes that result from a 7500lm/sqft approach? Or just the method?

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Both, at first, I thought just the method, but I currently have 2514 lumens per sq ft from roughly 28% efficient, Phillips and Cree bulbs. Have been averaging .8/.9 grams/watt this way. Granted I have a small space but I am running 108 watts for about 29 par watts over 3.5 sq.ft.

My upgrade will be roughly 13+K lumens and 42-45 PAR watts, in the first re-incarnation. So still only running 3771 lumens per ft and roughly 12 PAR watts a ft.
fyi......Supra's last harvest [ a beaut] was averaging around 15 PAR/sq. ft.


I just think it is easier to get out of the habit of using lumens, especially with all the contributors who have published radio and photometric data for us.

I could run sample after sample, showing skewed progressions in varying choices of diodes but really for a ballpark, sans radio data, I would rely on true wattage / efficiency to guide me for initial baseline planning.

Yes, cost of electricity could be a factor, but I am not trying to promote a theory and use it against my control in this case.

Abiqua said:

Both, at first, I thought just the method, but I currently have 2514 lumens per sq ft from roughly 28% efficient, Phillips and Cree bulbs. Have been averaging .8/.9 grams/watt this way. Granted I have a small space but I am running 108 watts for about 29 par watts over 3.5 sq.ft.

My upgrade will be roughly 13+K lumens and 42-45 PAR watts, in the first re-incarnation. So still only running 3771 lumens per ft and roughly 12 PAR watts a ft.
fyi......Supra's last harvest [ a beaut] was averaging around 15 PAR/sq. ft.


I just think it is easier to get out of the habit of using lumens, especially with all the contributors who have published radio and photometric data for us.

I could run sample after sample, showing skewed progressions in varying choices of diodes but really for a ballpark, sans radio data, I would rely on true wattage / efficiency to guide me for initial baseline planning.

Yes, cost of electricity could be a factor, but I am not trying to promote a theory and use it against my control in this case.

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From my experience less powerful systems will produce more g/w, but less grams and usually lower quality from what I have seen. (my experience, yours may be different) I know damn well that at 7500lm/sqft we aren't going to compete in grams per watt. We have already headed into diminishing returns territory but diminished returns still makes more money than less grams.

How many grams out of how big a space are you pulling at those light levels?
Edit: You gave the info I needed to figure this out anyway. My math says something like 95g from 3.5sqft. Or about 1oz per sqft.
Are you going to compete with a system at twice the lighting level in total grams output?
Edit: There are higher lighting examples yielding over 3x that amount per sqft. On my next grow I'm targeting 2x to 2.5x that amount per sqft. (4-5lbs from 32sqft.) I know I'm aiming high, I prefer to fall short of my goal than set it too easy.

Edit again: I forgot you are organic too, so not a fair comparison with hydro. I have no idea how to judge your results at this point. I'm looking for g/sqft or g/sqft/day to be ideal. Basically I'm looking to make the most money possible so it's mostly about the most grams as fast as possible from my space. With a strong secondary concern of high quality bud.

Already hooked up thanks again guys! I can tell this will so much better)

I don't see how any LED newb could come to this thread and expect to come out less confused than going in. There is knowledge here but it is buried kneedeep in ego's, adverts, arguments and misinformation.

Gamer621 said:

I don't see how any LED newb could come to this thread and expect to come out less confused than going in. There is knowledge here but it is buried kneedeep in ego's, adverts, arguments and misinformation.

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I get to say my line again: wiki. A wiki page about "how to choose an LED" could cover all the individual variables including "you shouldn't." For any direction an individual's variables lead, it could link to deeper dives on that topic (DIY, high-efficiency fixtures, Cree lightbulbs, T5HO, CMH, inexpensive Chinese fixtures).

Creating something like that would be delicate. Everyone would have to accept some compromise, that "efficiency" isn't always electrical. But, at least it wouldn't run into the 10's of thousands of pages generating more heat than the inexpensive Chinese fixtures ever could.

Forums are great for discussion, testing and expanding knowledge. But, wikis are great for storing the results of those discussions as the common language currently in use. When forums are used for the latter, it's like we constantly regress to the basics over and over, debating physics, semantics, etc. Then people who feel they've written the definitive textbook on a topic (10s of thousands of pages of discussions) get exasperated that they have to constantly write it over and over to maintain orthodox thought.

I think anyone new to LED who would read the last 10-20 pages would give up, that the common language isn't common yet.

Captain Kirk( Star Trek) would call LED's the great unknown, to go and explore where no man has gone before. To search for the answers for all mankind. And now he is retired and the good people hear are filling in. There seem to be many trials and errors to get to the perfect Light, just hang tight all newbes and don't get disgusted and give up. Just try your best to sort through it all and you will be rewarded.

nomofatum said:

I said I was smart enough to be socially inept if you want to be clear. Yes I did post my IQ range when it was made very relevant by the OPs mentioning he was in a similar boat. I don't go throwing that around, you will find exactly 1 post with my IQ and 0 with me trying to lord it over people like some do with experience.

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I want to say something and then I'm back out. Having a high IQ doesn't justify stirring the pot and being endlessly provocative. That's not "socially inept." It's self-serving and mean. You may not see it as such, but you do recognize something is amiss as you disclaim your "talents" as resulting in "social ineptitude."

I was a member of Mensa as a young adult. I can tell you from experience that you have a choice to share your unique abilities and vision in a constructive manner (in which people will listen), or in a self-serving manner (where it's about proving you're right even if nobody's listening anymore).

Discretion is the better part of valor. Sometimes it's better to just leave it alone and wait for another opportunity when those who don't march to your drummer might be better inclined to see your perspective. And, when you might have more tools and results to demonstrate the merit of yours. (You haven't even finished a grow with the lights you've spent countless posts arguing over. Against people who crack the numbers in their sleep, own PAR meters, etc. That alone should make you ashamed of your behavior, not merely "I'm socially inept.").

It seems to me that you delight in coming in and disrupting what you view as the status quo just to elevate yourself to leader status without earning it first. You don't have to earn it because you're special. You have the ability to think through the holes in the status quo. The mental stimulation of debate is more rewarding than the health of the community. And, I agree with @captainmorgan 's observation that you have a subtle yet very discernible pattern of changing the parameters of the discussion to lead toward more debate rather than closure and understanding. (I saw this when we discussed the "decision tree." I couldn't keep you on topic. When I finally got you to the point of accepting your own challenge to document the decision tree which you proposed, you dismissively proclaimed "F decision trees. I'm on to bigger and better things." You're a genius and we should all see that. You shouldn't be bothered with delivering anything, your thoughts are so special they should stand on their own merit.).

I think you make some valid points. But they're lost in your quest for never-ending friction. You're going to find yourself banned. It will be justified because ultimately this is a community. It's your responsibility to fit in -- not the community's responsibility to entertain your self-serving need to exercise your intellect.

az2000 said:

I want to say something and then I'm back out. Having a high IQ doesn't justify stirring the pot and being endlessly provocative. That's not "socially inept." It's self-serving and mean. You may not see it as such, but you do recognize something is amiss as you disclaim your "talents" as resulting in "social ineptitude."

I was a member of Mensa as a young adult. I can tell you from experience that you have a choice to share your unique abilities and vision in a constructive manner (in which people will listen), or in a self-serving manner (where it's about proving you're right even if nobody's listening anymore).

Discretion is the better part of valor. Sometimes it's better to just leave it alone and wait for another opportunity when those who don't march to your drummer might be better inclined to see your perspective. And, when you might have more tools and results to demonstrate the merit of yours. (You haven't even finished a grow with the lights you've spent countless posts arguing over. Against people who crack the numbers in their sleep, own PAR meters, etc. That alone should make you ashamed of your behavior, not merely "I'm socially inept.").

It seems to me that you delight in coming in and disrupting what you view as the status quo just to elevate yourself to leader status without earning it first. You don't have to earn it because you're special. You have the ability to think through the holes in the status quo. The mental stimulation of debate is more rewarding than the health of the community. And, I agree with @captainmorgan 's observation that you have a subtle yet very discernible pattern of changing the parameters of the discussion to lead toward more debate rather than closure and understanding. (I saw this when we discussed the "decision tree." I couldn't keep you on topic.).

I think you make some valid points. But they're lost in your quest for never-ending friction. You're going to find yourself banned. It will be justified because ultimately this is a community. It's your responsibility to fit in -- not the community's responsibility to entertain your self-serving need to exercise your intellect.

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To me the target audience has never been the person I was conversing with. They had already made their decision. I was always trying to provide info or correct something I found to be deceptive to a newb reading this thread. I honestly don't care what you choose for lighting, I just can't stand by while I feel like people are being lied to.

I know I come off as very abrasive to certain personality types, mostly alpha types. I don't feel like I can or should try to make everyone like me. I have no desire to be the most liked person here. My desire is to learn and share. If you look in all the other threads but here, I'm getting pretty positive feedback. What is happening here isn't all or even mostly my fault. I share some contribution, but it's really being caused by people misunderstanding and reacting emotionally (pointless attacks.) I should be able to disagree for reason with anyone without them getting upset. If I disagree for no reason and get loud about it I can see good reason to get upset, but that hasn't happened.

I look at things from as many angles as possible. I wasn't trying to make it hard on you with the decision tree, that thing is way more complex than you would think. I started working on that and gave up for the time being, it's going to be a college thesis level work.

Anyway, can we start talking about LEDs again and try to allow all options to be considered? If we keep going into stuff like this we aren't ever going to get going on a civil conversation about LEDs and alternatives.

I'm more trying to use my need to exercise my intellect to help the community. I get bored if I'm not either high or thinking. The point of me being here is to share/teach and learn/be a student at the same time.