Increase yields? Removal of fan leaves? and readily available sugars?

LRX

Member

Anything in Italic is from an article I read,
about an article in High Times, about a book;
the book is about getting '3' _ yes, 3 per light...
cost of book = 500$ (lol,lol,lol)

What do people think about the method of -Fan Leaf Removal- to increase yield?

One of the keys to reaching that 3-pound benchmark, Haupt says, is the “schwazze.
Haupt picked up the term from his mentor: It denotes the practice of removing every single fan leaf on day one of flowering. Then the plant is schwazzed again in the third week of flowering.
“You’re looking for optimum light penetration through the canopy,” Haupt says. “Not only that, you’re refocusing the plant’s energy toward the top to generate new growth. When you schwazze your plants, you’re removing a lot of their ability to uptake sugar. The fan leaves are sugar factories and feed the flower. When they’re removed, you now have to feed the plant all that sugar and the micro/macro nutrients.”


How do people support the plant supplementally after removing the sugars made available by fan leaves? Without spending a life savings on crazy expensive nutrient lines???


The article about the book says things like this:
"...he says, that he perfected his technique, which he describes as a “nine-spoke wheel.”
“Those nine spokes,” he explains, “are temperature, humidity, CO2, room dynamics, genetics, food, water, manicuring and pruning, and, of course, TLC. All of these play into your yield. Once you understand how they need to be applied, ... from seed all the way to the finished flower. But if you remove any of these spokes, the wheel won’t roll as smoothly.”


I say... Ok. Ok.
all of that is going to make a difference either way.
You need everything above to be perfect for even '1' a light.
Lets get to the point!


The guy in the article warns about nutrient and sugar depravation:
When you schwazze your plants, you’re removing a lot of their ability to uptake sugar. The fan leaves are sugar factories and feed the flower. When they’re removed, you now have to feed the plant all that sugar and the micro/macro nutrients.”


I want to believe the hype because this is not the first time I have heard of this idea.
You need to know what your doing...
I am worried about the sugar loss from large fan leaves.
Because of things like this from other source's I am very hesitant:

To maximize your yield, you need to help a plant focus on bud production. Upper canopy leaves get the most light, meaning they will have the best photosynthesis.


Older fan leaves produce lots of sugars, given the right light, more so than new, smaller leaves at the top. Giving them more light by removing young leaves that block their light source can be better than removing them. However, leaves at the top of the plant will naturally have more chloroplasts, giving them greater efficiency. The best practice is a solid upper canopy and removal of most, if not all lower leaves.


Because sugar is produced in the leaves, this is where it is most highly concentrated. Sugars move to where they are being absorbed the most, like electricity.

This means that older leaves, which create more sugars than they require, spread the excess towards other areas of the plant. New leaves take in sugars from older leaves since they need more than they can make at first. Buds use more sugar than any other part of a plant.

So my concern: If I take away the old fan leaves, I take away sugars stores from the plant. Those excess sugar stores are 'sugar distribution sites" for the newly forming flowers. If I rip them off, and "back branch"; I am both shocking the plant by light, shocking it by cutting back lower growth, and tkaing away the sugar stores and ability to distribute excess sugars. Maybe

The I was reading up on the internet and found this. The below is about the ability for a plant to 'uptake' sugars as glucose.
Okay, so a little biochemistry lesson: Plants do not uptake complex sugars. Even sucrose (contained in white granulated table sugar) is not something a plant will have an easy time processing. To put my point in layman's terms, "you've got to boil your sugar for 5 minutes to break down the sucrose into glucose, the simplest form of carbohydrate if you want your plant to be able to assimilate it". I am not saying molasses will not help "your nugs bulk up". The truth is actually quite the opposite. However, the prime function of molasses is to stimulate the propagation of beneficial microbials in the soil. Molasses will notably increase plant nutrient uptake, but if you want to benefit from a carbohydrate growth boost, boil your sugars in clean filtered water for 5 minutes. I use brown sugar because of the molasses contained in brown sugar, but that's largely because I don't use molasses. I use sugar solutions during weeks 4-8 on a 10 week cycle. Anywhere from 1.5 and 3 Tbsp/gallon is what I've noticed people using, but I use 1.5 Tbsp/Gallon. *NOTE Do NOT, I repeat, DO NOT water your plants with boiling water. Not to say you would, just sayin'.

Just wondering what other people out here think of all this...
Thanks
 

LRX

Member
update to my own post

"Hmmm,
Looks like it's time for a chemistry lesson.

Boiling Sucrose will not convert it to Glucose.
However, if you add a small amount of citric acid it will.

Heating starch to ~160F. will convert it to glucose.
Boiling starch will cook it.

Plants produce sugars, but they do not uptake them.

That's why they need light.

And glucose in soil feeds mostly yeasts.


Just sayin.
Aloha,

Weeze

So I am back where I started, curious and concerned about how a plant can uptake sugars when I deprive it of sugars stored in fan leaves. This guys says plants cant even 'uptake' sugars. Is this something I even need to worry about. I suppose I could try it on a few and not on a few others. The old control group idea...
 

LRX

Member
why would you remove the leaves that make your plant grow and produce the buds
Ask the guy that gets 3 pounds a light...
and wants you to pay 500$ for his book with the hidden answer to that question.

That is what I am trying to figure out.
 

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
The molasses part is accurate; removing much of the growth under the canopy that gets minimal light sounds good but the getting 3 lbs per light just by removing some of the fan leaves is total bullshit. Fuck high times...
You can schwazze that shit till the cows come home but ya won't get 3 lbs without some serious wattage indoors no matter how you prune your plants
Ask the guy that gets 3 pounds a light...
and wants you to pay 500$ for his book with the hidden answer to that question.

That is what I am trying to figure out.
Nothing to figure out here except to stop listening to assholes. Keep them healthy & they will produce yields; if you are not happy with how much bud you are pulling upgrade your lighting. Prune your plants as needed especially under the canopy but keep in mind healthy green leaves make big healthy buds; send me $500 if ya wanna know more...
 

bryan oconner

Well-Known Member
yeah its a bunch of bull shit . only suggest moving or removing leaf if needed if its laying on the bud and blocking the light . sounds like they are going to town chopping every single leaf off . I like to trim some of my leafs off only ones that block direct light to the fruits I am talking mabe 2 or so not like high times 30 leafs off .
 

LRX

Member
The molasses part is accurate; removing much of the growth under the canopy that gets minimal light sounds good but the getting 3 lbs per light just by removing some of the fan leaves is total bullshit. Fuck high times...
You can schwazze that shit till the cows come home but ya won't get 3 lbs without some serious wattage indoors no matter how you prune your plants

Nothing to figure out here except to stop listening to assholes. Keep them healthy & they will produce yields; if you are not happy with how much bud you are pulling upgrade your lighting. Prune your plants as needed especially under the canopy but keep in mind healthy green leaves make big healthy buds; send me $500 if ya wanna know more...
LOL. Priceless freggin' reply. wow. Thanks man.
It is not that I am happy or un=happy with 'my' yields, per say.

I am trying to kick start a super extra tiny project.
It is due to how tiny my is;
that yield has come to the front and center of my planning.
I appreciate your reply.

Lucky for me...
the one footprint that I will have, can be 1K watts.
Do they make ballast than push out higher than that??
(maybe that is what is not being told)

I just want/need to maximize everything.

I am having to get the max for every dollar I spend as well.
The 2 things I have going for me are:
1: TLC TLC TLC,
2: having done so much wrong in the past
3: an awesome tea that I know is magical
4: I know I am building a rich medium with lots of fungi/bacteria/micronutirents (see 3)
5: not over-watering
6: not over-watering
7: spraying to make a "force-field" to prevent pest/mildew/etc...

Since I have yet to even take cuts from mom,
I will make sure and and remember what Drysift said:

I will take notice, and 'stop listening to assholes'.
I will also remember, 'healthy green leaves make big healthy buds'.

Thanks.
 

LRX

Member
yeah its a bunch of bull shit . only suggest moving or removing leaf if needed if its laying on the bud and blocking the light . sounds like they are going to town chopping every single leaf off . I like to trim some of my leafs off only ones that block direct light to the fruits I am talking mabe 2 or so not like high times 30 leafs off .
This is not what 'High Times' said to do, to be clear. The article is in High Times. Anyway.

These guys; they were taking them all off.
Large industrial warehouse grow in CO or something like that.
Every plant had every 'fan-leaf' taken off.
 

KryptoBud

Well-Known Member
This is not what 'High Times' said to do, to be clear. The article is in High Times. Anyway.

These guys; they were taking them all off.
Large industrial warehouse grow in CO or something like that.
Every plant had every 'fan-leaf' taken off.
It denotes the practice of removing every single fan leaf on day one of flowering. Then the plant is schwazzed again in the third week of flowering.


Those couple sentences say it all.
If all leaves are taken off on the first day of flower and needs to be done again would suggest the plant regrows them because it needs them. For me personally i'd much rather have my plants spend energy on growing bud not leaves.

A couple other things to consider are
1) The difference between sun and shade leaves and their use of light.
2) The inverse law of light. Removing leaves that "block" light is useless. Light intensity drops dramatically over a very short distance. Leaves lower on the plant will never receive the same light intensity as the leaves that were removed above it.
3) The person selling this $500 book also sells his own line of watered down nutes.
 

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
LOL. Priceless freggin' reply. wow. Thanks man.
It is not that I am happy or un=happy with 'my' yields, per say.

I am trying to kick start a super extra tiny project.
It is due to how tiny my is;
that yield has come to the front and center of my planning.
I appreciate your reply.

Lucky for me...
the one footprint that I will have, can be 1K watts.
Do they make ballast than push out higher than that??
(maybe that is what is not being told)

I just want/need to maximize everything.

I am having to get the max for every dollar I spend as well.
The 2 things I have going for me are:
1: TLC TLC TLC,
2: having done so much wrong in the past
3: an awesome tea that I know is magical
4: I know I am building a rich medium with lots of fungi/bacteria/micronutirents (see 3)
5: not over-watering
6: not over-watering
7: spraying to make a "force-field" to prevent pest/mildew/etc...

Since I have yet to even take cuts from mom,
I will make sure and and remember what Drysift said:

I will take notice, and 'stop listening to assholes'.
I will also remember, 'healthy green leaves make big healthy buds'.

Thanks.
A thousand watts is not really all that super extra tiny; I can easily get a pound off my 600w if I wanted to. You'll get nice yields if you just fill up your area with nodal plant material & the light will do the rest. Keep your plants happy and healthy and max yields will happen; good luck & happy growing
 

LRX

Member
I said my project is tiny. That is why I did not want to skimp on the Watts.
Asides the W, size of rooms and numbers are small.
At least, in comparison to what I have seen or done in the past.

The new ballast I just got is switchable.
Due to the lack of intensity of the 'veg' light I am using.
I am going to have to use the dimmer,
to stage them up to full intensity, so I don't fry them by being blasted.

Also, going to take some heat measurements without anything in there first.
Depending on how much heat the hood(not closed or ducted) puts out directly,
and how much heat, builds up in the room in general.
- If the room gets too hot I might not be able to use it at 1k -

Could you get 1lb from one 600w footprint and only 1 plant?

I am going to need to learn to grow a whole new style.
- what I would refer to as the Oregon style -
grow 4 plant(s). have 4 light(s). get a pound a light.
grow 1 plant(s). have 1 light(s). get a pound a light.
 

DemonTrich

Well-Known Member
My 1st ever grow (4x4 tent, 1x600 cool tube, 9x3.7 gal pots. Yeild 17.65 oz.) Did NOT remove any fans, only sc and lollipop.
 

Illinois Enema Bandit

Well-Known Member
I'm not buying defoliation will lead to 3 lbs a light,I run triple 600's over each 4x8 table using massive clones with 6-8 bud nodes per clone & no side branching,I need every fan leaf I can get,the single colas that have more big fan leaves will reach 4 zips while the colas with not as many fan leaves will be around 2 zips,same strain,same mother's ,same # of bud nodes,only difference is more sun leaves & bud production nearly doubles.

Sounds like a gimmick to me,defoliating goes against every rule of good gardening,if somebody is using that insane technique & hitting 3lbs per light it took them a decade or better to master it,I'm on my 9th year doing the Al B Fuct method & just this last year started hitting 3 lbs a light ,by the time I cut away shit that looks like shwag & funky buds its closer to 2 lbs a light of grade A smoke with 1 lb a light of shwag for BHO .
 

Dividedsky

Well-Known Member
I lollipop with great results, I myself would not remove fan leaves around top colas though. I have before and found the clone grew weaker airy bud compared to before, yeild suffered. Fan leaves are the lifeline of the plant.
 

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
Sugar in the root zone is a good way to osmotically imbalance the roots.

The only decent grows where defoliation worked was when it was done right at the end of the grow and not whilst the bud is still growing in size and of course lollipopping which is again a different style of grow and technique.
 
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